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So that's just the current position, yes? Tory Brexit bad, Labour Brexit good? So, if we keep Labour in opposition, they will join with MPs in other parties to demand a referendum, but if we vote them into power, they will push on with Brexit?
That’s a truly schizophrenic position. Weird.
No kelvin they will have a referendum on any deal. As has been the policy for a while. what is to be decided is if labour are in a position to make a deal and get a good one - there will still be a referendum on it but labour will have a free vote - at the moment
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union leaders including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed a change of policy.
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That Labour deal would also be put to a public vote, but the party would not commit to campaigning for remain against its own Brexit deal, throwing into doubt what Labour would offer in any snap election manifesto.
Crucial sentance missed from the quote
So that’s just the current position, yes? Tory Brexit bad, Labour Brexit good? So, if we keep Labour in opposition, they will join with MPs in other parties to demand a referendum, but if we vote them into power, they will push on with Brexit?
Not quite, you forgot the hypocrisy of campaigning for remain on a tory brexit, while still committing to brexit if (hahahah) labour win an imaginary election. But at least (I think) they have now committed to put either a tory or labour brexit to a public vote.
Still peddling the fantasy that their can be a beneficial brexit instead of trying to get across to as many people as possible that any brexit will be catastrophic, just that one kic
It is still as clear as mud what they believe in, for supposedly life long conviction politicians they seem rather short of political conviction.
Still too little too late, we are dependent on tory rebels to prevent the slide to no-deal brexit.
yeah it's pretty schizophrenic but it's progress at least!
As (i think) Ian Dunt just put it on twitter...
"Right then chaps, here it is - we're clearing up our position once and for all. SCENARIO 1......"
Again - wrong - not committed to brexit if labour negotiate one. Just not committed to campaign for remain in the unlikely event labour get a chance to make a deal.
Also note this quote from the same article that backs up what I have been saying for weeks
Labour had already shifted its Brexit stance to propose that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum, after the party suffered heavy losses to the pro-remain Liberal Democrats at the local and European elections.
The change here is labour are committing to campaign for remain on any tory deal but still an open vote if labour somehow make a deal. Its a bone to the bexiteers in labour
I agree its a daft position but why do you folk keep on misrepresenting it?
Maybe they aren't misrepresenting it. The problem lies elsewhere.
labour are committing to campaign for remain on any tory deal but still an open vote if labour somehow make a deal.
So.... let's say the Tories make a deal and Labour campaign for remain in opposition to it. Fine - might win over some voters. Then BJ calls a general election. Labour stop campaigning for remain and instead campaign for a Labour Brexit + 2nd ref?
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I can't see that winning over many of their lost voters... :/
So, if you want Brexit stopped asap, and think that a referendum with a Remain option is the route towards that, and you want the Labour Party campaigning for Remain in that referendum, then you should use your vote at a snap General Election to keep Labour in opposition? Is that what the unions want voters to be considering? Looking forward to this messy joint union proposition being picked up and made totally clear by the Labour leader's strategy and communications team as/if they adopt it as policy… I'm sure they have it in them… all signs point to that… honest. They won't be adding more caveats and complicating the flow chart still further… oh no.
you want the Labour Party campaigning for Remain in that referendum, then you should use your vote at a snap General Election to keep Labour in opposition?
You seem to have missed the fatal flaw in this line of reasoning. If you keep labour in opposition you won’t get a referendum. Also for all the wailing about labour negotiating a new deal, there does actually have to be one in order to have a confirmatory referendum. Do you expect a new labour govt to not attempt to renegotiate May’s shit show? If they fail and May’s deal is the only one left, then it’s clear that they will support remain.
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated. A guaranteed referendum with a remain option is now for all intents and purposes official labour policy (hasn’t been rubber stamped yet though TBF). Also as I thought it looks like They’re going down the Wilson option of allowing MPs to campaign freely on the referendum which is probably a good idea.
As we’re already seeing though it won’t be enough for the remain culture warriors.
Vindicated my arse! You've railed against Labour adopting a remain position ( which they are still far from adopting ) for at least 2 years! You said it would split the party and they would never get the support of the disenfranchised working class of the North!
As for Labour's change of position, I'll believe it when I hear JC on the 8:10 slot on r4, announcing it and answering questions on it.
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated. A guaranteed referendum with a remain option is now for all intents and purposes official labour policy (hasn’t been rubber stamped yet though TBF)
lets just hang on a minute there, shall we? Rubber stamped? 'The Leadership' haven't agreed to anything yet.
Corbyn's own MP's, membership and voters have been telling him for years to do this. He hasn't. He's been listening exclusively to Seamus and the rest of his anti-EU clique. So I'll just hang fire on that one, thanks. I'll believe it when I see it. What I expect more of is more endless fudge, procrastination, hand-wringing and can-kicking
Just reading this mornings Guardian. 2nd Paragraph:
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That doesn't sound like very unequivocal to me. Or very remainy. That just says that if they win an election they'll carry on 'respecting the result of the referendum and 'honouring the will of the people'
Anyway... away from the pointless, ineffective, fudgey sideshow that is the Labour Party, Five Live have spent the morning interviewing a panel of Tory party members. Its ****ing terrifying. They're all absolutely insistent on Borises 'no matter what' 'do or die' attitude to Brexit. They're all, every one of them, demanding no deal, out means out bollocks, banging on about the second world war, Winston Churchill and 'Britain standing alone against Europe' (an actual quote!)
As we’re already seeing though it won’t be enough for the remain culture warriors.
We are where we are. We didn't choose a culture war, David Cameron did. But we've now got one. And those are the people we're up against. The Labour party should be firmly on the side of liberal, progressive, pro-EU values. It hasn't been, because it hasn't wanted to be. You can rail against 'culture warriors' all you like, but somebody has to stop what is essentially a right wing coup, and the Labour party doesn't look like its much interest in doing so
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated.
The Labour movement, almost in its entirety, wants the leadership to adopt the policy that many of us have also been saying we want adopted. This joint union position is all part of pushing in that direction (even if it is still a messy fridge). @dazh, you and TJ keep telling us that Corbyn has already adopted the position that his party are dragging and pushing him to. Are they pushing against an open door? They'll get him there eventually, maybe, but he isn't there yet… will today be the day?
When/if he eventually moves, how much will he have damaged his own credentials, as the man who would empower and support the party's members and supporters, by all this "long game" of long games?
You said it would split the party and they would never get the support of the disenfranchised working class of the North!
And I still fear it will. The fact that they have got to the point of guaranteeing a referendum (still TBC officially) with a remain option without the party splitting is further than I thought they’d get, and a result of the consensus building process that most on here have opposed.
The next problem will be winning an election, and then a remain victory in the resultant referendum. Both are still remote possibilities so I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Is Jeremy finally coming down off his fence?
Who knows? Its like pulling ****ing teeth
Statement from Corbyn today. It won't go far enough for many of you but makes it utterly clear that they would have a referendum on any deal and on do deal / tory hard leave would campaign for remain
I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.
We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.
As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories' Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.
I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.
Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.
But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.
Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit – or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.
I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.
Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.
Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.
We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.
Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.
That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many, not the few.
That doesn’t sound like very unequivocal to me. Or very remainy.
According to the BBC they say they'd rather remain than have no deal or a 'bad tory' Brexit.
Now, we all know that the deal isn't renegotiable, so that is a way of saying they respect the will of the people but are going to campaign for remain.
Interesting to see how that affects polls. If they can even get the message out. Their position is qualified, and we know that kind of thing is too complicated for many voters.
"Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs."
So basically, in the event of a labour win at a snap GE, there is zero commitment to holding a peoples vote with Remain as an option.
Well, at least we are clear what Corbyn will do… just as long as we don't make him PM… because then… what exactly happens? Oh… end austerity and rebuild… that's good, but what is his Brexit policy? Anyone?!?
Labour is demanding a referendum on any tory deal, which they know they won't get, but in the event of a general election then its straight back to red unicorns
Jesus wept!
"Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote."
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
My god its pointless
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
If by some unlikely chance labour are in power and negotiate a very soft leave then they would not be committed to campaigning against this.
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
The next paragraph puts it into context. Could have been better written though eg not next paragraph.
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
You mean terrifying because it looks like a straight line to a public backed No Deal? I'd prefer that to No Deal happening without public consent.
Labour is demanding a referendum on any tory deal, which they know they won’t get, but in the event of a general election then its straight back to red unicorns
Jesus wept!
Mate, they know there is no changing the deal, so this implicitly means they are having a referendum. The red unicorn brexit is a smokescreen to try and keep leavers onside.
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
Link?
Any quote from Corbyn (even as late as today) saying that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option would be very welcome. He hasn't said it in the past, but if he said it today it would be go a long way towards clarifying his new message. I'd give him a standing ovation.
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
We've been here before. This has only ever happened in your head
So basically, in the event of a labour win at a snap GE, there is zero commitment to holding a peoples vote with Remain as an option.
Nope - the committement is there in previous statements to hold a referendum even if labour are in power and negotiate a deal
Labour had already shifted its Brexit stance to propose that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum, after the party suffered heavy losses to the pro-remain Liberal Democrats at the local and European elections.
Scotroutes - I have numerous times given a link to Corbyns statements that make it absolutely clear that ANY deal will go to referendum with leave and remain options.
Any quote from Corbyn (even as late as today) saying that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option would be very welcome. He hasn’t said it in the past,
He has said it in the past. I have linked to and quoted numerous statements to that effect.
Link? Go on…
Are you referring to the statement that included the weasel words "demand a referendum" and "options for"…? Or another one? If there are multiple ones… give us multiple links or quotes now, please.
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union leaders including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed a change of policy.
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That Labour deal would also be put to a public vote, but the party would not commit to campaigning for remain against its own Brexit deal, throwing into doubt what Labour would offer in any snap election manifesto.
One senior shadow cabinet source described it as a significant win for remain campaigners, despite the potential lack of clarity.
“Unions have backed a referendum on any deal this parliament and Labour campaigning for remain – that’s a big victory. What’s in a manifesto is a debate for another day,” the source said.
Scotroutes – I have numerous times given a link to Corbyns statements that make it absolutely clear that ANY deal will go to referendum with leave and remain options.
No, you bloody haven't. You've linked to a statement that he supports a referendum with "real options for both Leave and Remain voters". I'm not the only one calling this out, half the Labour Party are. Do I need to mention them all. Again?
this is so painful. Can you not read english?
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
Multiple quotes saying exactly this
We have read what the joint union statement says, and we know that most of the Labour movement want a Labour government to hold a referendum with a Remain option… what we are asking you for, TJ, ex-troll, is a link or quote where Corbyn says that.
this is so painful. Can you not read english?
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
Multiple quotes saying exactly this
Great - link and quote Corbyn here. Put it to bed.
Scotroutes - I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!
Its clear, its in black and white
Arrgghhh - why did I come back to this! I( should have learnt the lesson you tried to teach me scotroutes 😉 make your statement and leave
Front page on the Guardian now, Labour apparently back remain in a referendum.
The kicker is that they still support a labour Brexit first though.
So no real change.
If Grandad plans to campaign for remain as whole-heartedly as he did last time, essentially he’s just voted himself another couple of months kicking back on the allotment
Scotroutes – I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!
Its clear, its in black and white
Humour us. Link and quote Corbyn.
Yup Binners. It’s not a real change in stance, it’s political weaselling.
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
No, there is no commitment in today's statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs).
Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.
It’s like Groundhog Day. They must seriously think we’ve all just fallen out of a ****ing tree!
Well the Lib Dem’s and the Greens will be happy enough. Still the home for the anti-Brexit vote as the Labour Party takes aim at its foot once again, ready to give it both barrels
It's definitely a change in stance but with extra political weaselling (a.k.a politics) added.
Corbyn has to lead a split party and represent a split voter base, he does't have the luxury of just backing whatever he wants like you lot do. Because he's actually in a position of power.
No, there is no commitment in today’s statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs
What we need to do is vote Tory in enough numbers to give them an even smaller majority, but enough to cause labour to oppose a Tory Brexit with some chance of success. 🙂 As opposed to whole heartedly voting Labour.
Corbyn truly is a prat.
Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit, it’s a poisoned chalice!? If Labour tried to strike a deal it would end them.