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Those eight labour mps are hardline brexiteers with motives from outright racism to deluded lexit support.
I used to think that, but John Mann is my MP and he's not a Corbyn fan boy at all. But he's sitting on a 70% Brexit strong community. So what are you going to do? Like the neighbouring Mansfield we would hand it over to the Tories or Brexit party if not.
There's complete logic to not biting the hand that feeds him. Nor is it racism. (daft thing to say)
And he's done a lot of good stuff around here.
If we're kicking anyone out it should be Hodge and Tom Watson - Watson especially for conducting his completely dodgy polling and constant attacks against conference policy.
Some of you lot have this at 180 degrees.
I will say this John Mann doesn't like Corbyn - so he tends to vote against no matter what and that does piss me off. And at the same time is a complex message, but does show Corbyn is after a compromise Brexit and Mann is not.
The next train arriving at Platform Reality is the scheduled October 31st to Brexit, stopping at Undemocratic EU, Global Britain, Unleashed Potential, You just have to believe, Managed No Deal and Windy Runway.
https://giphy.com/gifs/disaster-train-wreck-xT9Igk6pl01yVK0FHO
Mogg and his cronies voted against one type of brexit, there was nothing to stop the labour mps voting against another type.
Is anyone asking how the EU is likely to respond to a new tub thumbing PM looking to change the Withdrawl Agreement before October…?
https://twitter.com/stone_skynews/status/1139037352230342661?s=21
There’s complete logic to not biting the hand that feeds him.
Yup, he wants to hold onto his seat. Such an honourable man. Voting to support a headless Tory party delivering a No Deal Brexit is a small price to pay to stay an MP.
constant attacks against conference policy
If those in Labour who are calling for a referendum with a Remain option before we Leave are to be expelled… it's going to be a tiny Party. Kier Starmer was stronger than ever last night in calling for that to become explicit policy as soon as possible.
Voting to support a headless Tory party delivering a No Deal Brexit is a small price to pay to stay an MP.
Quite. Behaving like a Tory. What more can we say?
The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a No Deal Brexit. There will have to be a deal of some sort
One thing that absolutely baffles me with these loons is the idea that in the chaos of no arrangements being in place on October 31st, that we're going to find ourselves in a better negotiating position than we are now.
There's some seriously warped thinking to come to the conclusion that we'll be suddenly somehow in a position to be dictating terms. Yes the motorway network is at a standstill with food rotting in the back of trucks, and we're running low on essential medicines but HAHAAAAAA Johnny Foreigner - we've shown you, eh? Now let's sit down and negotiate a proper deal from our new position of strength
It doesn't stand up to the most cursory examination. But it appears that analysis of the most basic economic facts are not part of the process
Baffles me too. They must know it is not going to go well yet they pretend it is to look all big and hard and also comply with the will of the people. What happens when it all goes to shit and they start getting the blame or do they really think that is not going to happen?
Three groups…
One thinks that the EU always comes good at the last minute, and will always choose either to extend or to bend to our will, rather than let us mess things up. They think brinkmanship is the only way to do deal with the EU.
One thinks that from the chaos will come opportunity… the chance for radical political and industrial reform that would otherwise be resisted by the public.
One still really doesn't understand how international agreements work, and how they effect everything we do. Scarily, some of these people are in prominent positions now… promising that success will fall into our hands if we just keep our own civil service and diplomats out of the picture. They think it's all just a series of straightforward business deals, and professionals who claim otherwise are over thinking it.
Edit - sorry - there is a fourth group - those that genuinely believe that DEMOCRACY MUST BE OBEYED NO MATTER THE DAMAGE (and, no, you can't have a vote).
What happens when it all goes to shit and they start getting the blame
They'll blame the evil EU, like MPs and the media have been doing consistently for the past fifty years.
Let's be honest, this is the received wisdom and has been for so very very long:
I bet the ERG can't believe how well this is going. The longer things carry on for the bigger the result is likely. Not only will they have gotten one of theirs in to No10 but they've got "No deal" not only on the table but as the default option and the more people talk about it the more normalised it becomes.
We're like crabs being boiled alive. In 50 years this is going to make a very interesting study in mass hypnotism.
The financial times just published a cabinet note that the UK is - surprise surprise - nowhere near ready for a No Deal Brexit (could we ever be?)
UK not ready for a no-deal Brexit, confidential cabinet note warns
Brexiteer Peter Lily has just been on Five Live to say that that's all complete nonsense and everything is going to be just fine, in fact absolutely brilliant, because... well it just is
Not really any surprises in the result of the first vote, I think.
Boris looks to be a shoe-in - who's likely to be the other finalist, I wonder...
Exactly how long after we've left will Britain be great again?
Can a leaver give me some sort of time frame.
Exactly how long after we’ve left will Britain be great again?
About when we stop being the UK, so really when we end up leaving NI in Europe because we can't figure out how to take it with us.
I was a remainer and now I'm a leaver...in the very real sense. Living in the UK after a no deal brexit with that charlatan as 'leader' will be one straw too many. Estate agents are booked to come round at the weekend and the search commences for a couple of jobs in the Netherlands. New schools are being scouted for the children. For me, it will be a new horizon, for my wife it will be returning home. She hasn't been entirely happy since the day of the result anyway but now things are exponentially worse.
They’ll blame the evil EU, like MPs and the media have been doing consistently for the past fifty years.
This is what pisses me off the most now, it's bad enough we're going to crash out but knowing that the hardline leavers will get away with things if/when the economy/country suffers by blaming the EU, May's failure to negotiate as a good a deal as they could have in their fantasy world and delays caused by remainers really annoys me.
Exactly how long after we’ve left will Britain be great again?
Well Jacob Rees-Mogg reckons it could be 50 years - and I would have thought he would err on the side of optimism re. Brexit.
Big picture, we're well on our way to second world status for a good long time, I would say. And long term, what are the Divided Kingdom's big options, could go -
* hello, cheap labour here, the Sweatshop of Western Europe
* go back to the EU doing our best to be polite and nice and stuff and asking to re-join
* agree to everything the US wants and hope for nominal 51st state status.
* the EU already has deals with others who will always be cheaper than we can be … and more deals are underway
* don't forget who will have the vetoe to stop this … good luck getting unanimity across all EU governments and parliaments for that, after our disregard for them
* "always" and "only" America First, the big guy says
This whole thing is a disaster capitalist project. And that works by creating chaos then using the 'opportunity' to drive through policies you wouldn't get through in a million years in a 'normal' circumstances. That's why they want a No Deal Brexit. They want complete chaos. No skin off their noses as they're all safely insulated from it
As the carnage of the economic collapse unfolds, expect to be hearing a sombre looking PM (probably Boris) at a succession of press conferences making statements that all start "we have no option but to..." as they tear up the entire post-war settlement. You can kiss goodbye to a lot that we've taken for granted in this country for 60-70 years. Bye bye NHS, the welfare state, environmental controls, workers rights and the minimum wage as they slash taxes for corporations and the rich
You know what? Why don't we "just" get on with Brexit.
That's right John. You tell them. Sum it up like nobody else can. You've certainly spotted and fixed all the obvious problems with the whole thing there.
One still really doesn’t understand how international agreements work, and how they effect everything we do.
I was thinking about this last night. I genuinely believe that this is the largest group, by a long way. The next time I hear someone say they want "no deal" I'm going to ask them what it means, and I strongly suspect that it'll be to stay as we are now or variations on that theme; that nothing will change only we'll be free to do what we want (whatever that is). I'd love to see a poll done on this.
Because for all their bluster, I'd wager good money (in a non-sterling denomination) that next to no-one outside of the likes of people like Banks and Putin really wants a no-deal brexit, they simply do not have the remotest comprehension of what that actually means. Their precious blue passport is going to be the square root of **** all use to them when we don't have a deal that means we can fly into foreign airspace.
IDS on the radio earlier saying that actually no deal isn't really no deal, it's going back to the EU for the 'comprehensive free trade agreement they offered us right at the start of negotiations'. Utter abject bollocks.
Truly depressing read that John Redwood tweet - putting all the blame on the Civil Service and businesses when it's down to the politicians ineptitude and lack of direction. Civil Servants aren't stopping anything, they'll just be asking questions based on policy and law and expect to be given some of direction they can act upon in accordance with the Civil Service Code. It's laughable that one of the reasons for Brexit is because of those 40,000-odd "unelected EU officials" when we have 300,000 unelected officials in the UK trying their level best to make order out of the chaos and the best answer the Brexies can come up with is "sack them"!
I anticipate that we'll get to the edge of the precipice come October and the headbangers will be told we can't jump because we'll be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement
Redwood is solidly from group two in my list, and is currently pretending to be in group three (having already pretended to be in groups one and four).
Redwood is a half-wit. If that.
The "great" in great Britain refers to the size of the UK after the union of Scotland and England. As Scots independence and a united Ireland are likely as a result of brexit then Britain would never be great again.
No deal means no deal. Without the Ni backstop and without paying the bill then there can be nothing else agreed so no trade deals or anything else
Could the E.U. turn around and say ‘the new deadline to leave is now open ended’?
They say to us that they know we want to leave but have shown no indication that we know how to or when.
We’ve elected our M.E.P.s so our default position is ‘in’ as full members until we go to them with a full, costed and timed plan.
They read it and accept it or they send it back and say try again.
Imagine the rage of the headbangers if they kept us in until we actually had a plan!
Don't know if they could do that but be good if they did.
Could the E.U. turn around and say ‘the new deadline to leave is now open ended’?
They can't keep having to deal with the constant distrubtion we are making, they could I suposse say, right get your act together and give 12 months notice on whether you agree to the deal or will leave with no deal. Both scenarios need preparation and just can't be enacted the nest day.
But continuing the current purgatory with no defined end suits no one, and is damaging everyone's economy.
But wouldn’t that end the purgatory because we’d be ‘in’? Business as usual until the UK sets the (achievable) date.
If the EU’s sole concern was to troll us (and it would be awesome if it was), then that would be most excellent.
However......
But continuing the current purgatory with no defined end suits no one, and is damaging everyone’s economy.
They’re just going to (rightly) tell us to **** off at the end of October. Then it really is hold on tight time. Or maybe emigrate to a country that has some self respect.
Any space left up in Scotland for us remainers? I hear you like the idea of not committing economic suicide.
I've said on here before that if "moving to Scotland" isn't just some meaningless soundbite then what are you waiting for? There is plenty of space and it'll never be easier as there is no paperwork required. Come now and help make it the country you'd like it to be.
More brexit logic on the withdrawal agreement from the DUP, apparently it’s all Ireland’s fault:
Mr Donaldson said the reason we have an impasse is because on three occasions, the UK parliament would not approve the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
He said it was a concern that was shared across a number of parties in Westminster, and said given Ireland's refusal to discuss the backstop, we were heading for a no-deal Brexit.
He said an agreement is only an agreement if both sides sign up to it, and when questioned about Theresa May signing up to it, he said she was the Prime Minister but was not the government.
Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers? I've been on Pistonheads occasionally and it's completely the opposite dynamic where the bias is generally towards leave, or at least the most vocal element is. Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker's approach to life?
Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker’s approach to life?
bit of both I think
I think it probably shows how reality has hit home
Do you even hear any of the original Brexiteers trying to argue any of their points of how Brexit will deliver any advantages at all, any more? That all stopped a long time ago as its just a laughable premise, given what we all now know
So now the nature of their argument - such as it is - has moved exclusively to 'we must deliver the will of the people' and 'just get on with it!'
That's now all they've got
Perhaps the forum members here are not universally moneyed up selfish bum holes that just can't wait to halve the salary of their sandwich factory slaves.
I apologise to all supercar driving pistonheads forum members who own a different sort of business.
And unlike facebook, we seem to be quite light on flag waving racist nazis Farage fanboys.
So the Lib dems have accepted Chuka into their fold. Shame, they had been doing so well recently, accepting this "shiny suit politician without philosophy" damages their brand IMO.
Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers?
There are a lot of people on the politics threads who are good at debating and questioning a point and request evidence/backup of statement made. There have been Brexiters on the thread through the years but they now fall at the first hurdle of "What is Brexit going to deliver that will a) be of benefit and b) allow us to do something we couldn't do already"
It's not even a) and b), just one thing that does a) or b) would be good!
There are a lot of people on the politics threads who are good at debating and questioning a point and request evidence/backup of statement made.
Moreover, on the wider Internet there isn't. I've seen this happen on remain FB groups even (though far, far less often than leave ones), there's plenty of folk susceptible to Fake News on both sides of the coin. People are generally very quick to believe something that reinforces their existing views (which, of course, is how we got to this point).
As you say though, STW on the other hand has a healthy collection of mass debaters well practised in going "prove it" any time someone dares to try and claim that grass is green. With a handful of notable exceptions, most of the leavers have scuttled off now as their arguments have been challenged and demonstrated to be baseless. This challenging isn't really happening effectively elsewhere, people are just getting angry and abusive at each other, which of course will earn you time off on here.
And if you remove people's ability to be shouty, what else have they got left? Either change the subject, come out with some bollocks like "what part of leave don't you understand?" or scuttle back under their rock to be jingoistic in private.