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Plenty of reasons to leave the EU, of course we are better off in.
Errm...
Sorry, but I am yet to be convinced of any, let alone "plenty"...
Blue passports, bendy bananas and exciting new trade deals with Mauritania. Haven't you been paying attention?
Probably should have phrased it "plenty of faults with EU" but anyway the biggest for me is CAP
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture
Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers?
The educational level of this place is rather different to that of pistonheads, I think. There was a survey last year and the number of PhDs around here was ridiculous. And the strongest indicator of brexit voting choice was educational attainment - much stronger than age/class/wealth etc.
I don't think the quality of debate here is much cop at all. It's just an echo chamber of remainers and Corbyn haters confirming each others positions. Fairly ill informed to boot
That's a somewhat different proposition, and I'd certainly agree that the EU is not perfect.
If only there was a way we could retain some kind of influence, and try to improve it...
Edit - this was in response to the "plenty of faults with the EU" post, up there... ^^^^
Fairly ill informed to boot
Well inform us.
CAP
Sadly Monbiot finishes off with "I don’t have all the answers, and I doubt anyone else does". Which is less than helpful, especially from someone who repeatedly claims change is needed in agriculture (e.g. get those sheep off the hills).
Well inform us
Don't encourage him.
I don't know how much my brother receives via CAP but I do know he gets a lot (as in many thousands of pounds) of EU money to let gorse grow on one of the rough plots of land on the farm. It's not the gorse itself that's important but there's a flower that relies on the gorse and a rare butterfly that relies on the flower.
I'd agree that CAP is somewhat past its sell-by date, it was after all in reaction to wartime and post-war food shortages.
I don't know anything about CAP, but if there's a problematic EU policy then isn't that exactly why we have UK MEPs?
Inform you? I have tried. No one is listening. Not all are ill-informed but there is a lot of nonsense posted here.
CAP has been heavily reformed… and needs further reform… but what REALLY needs reform is how we implement it in England & Wales. Go back a few hundred pages for a good discussion about that. Anyway, all very well to throw away the current imperfect support for agriculture… but you sure as hell better have something better planned before you propose dumping it completely…
That's the point right there, kelvin - there are probably quite a few imperfect things that we could point at and say "there, that's not very good, is it? ", but there's absolutely no plan for anything better.
I'd think about moving my position if there was, but I just don't see anything...
[strong]ctk[/strong] wrote:
Probably should have phrased it “plenty of faults with EU” but anyway the biggest for me is CAP
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture
/blockquote>As a farmer, being in the CAP is about the best bit of being in the EU. It may not be perfect, but it has been absolutely effective in achieving all its' aims since its introduction. The problem is that the aims of the CAP lag about 10-15 years behind those of society, as it takes a lot of time to redesign policy and to get it introduced and accepted. And please take anything written by Monbiot with a pinch of salt. He is great at pointing out the bad in things (much of which I can agree with), but extremely poor at coming up with any workable better alternatives. His arguments always seem to end up blaming everything on the rich and can usually be solved in his opinion by some sort of socialist utopia instead.
but if there’s a problematic EU policy then isn’t that exactly why we have UK MEPs?
And they’d be pretty much useless as whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission. If you want to go looking for faults in the EU, this is the place to start.
Not that the UK system is any better mind you, and the above is in no way a justification of our own semi-democratic unaccountable semi-dictatorship of the elite.
Buzzword Bingo!
I don’t think the quality of debate here is much cop at all. It’s just an echo chamber of remainers and Corbyn haters confirming each others positions. Fairly ill informed to boot
If only we had a self-proclaimed “political geek” to help us.
Buzzword bingo!
One of the weird things about brexit is that it has turned many centre left liberals into unashamed fanboys for a system which has massively amplified inequality via socialism for the rich.
The UK is the worst proponent of this but the EU isn’t much better, and the brexiteers have a point (even if it is transparently hypocritical) that UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt.
One of the weird things about brexit is that it has turned many centre left liberals into unashamed fanboys for a system which has massively amplified inequality via socialism for the rich.
any examples of this?
Not all are ill-informed but there is a lot of nonsense posted here.
There is.
UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt.
Well of course not. Have you seen the quality of the diplomatic MEPs we send to represent us?
Have you seen the quality of our current government?
They are not interested in engaging and influencing and improving society, their modus operandi is clear.
Make money, offshore it.
UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt
Most UK voters have a representive for their region in the European Parliament who is from a party they voted for. Most UK voters do not have a representative for their constituency in the UK Parliament from a party that they voted for.
But, ultimately, the EU is a collection of countries, and most of the power still sits with each sovereign government. So, if the UK government is distant from most UK voters, then that gap is just amplified when that government plays its part in EU decision making.
The tories moved their meps from the centre right group in the Eu parliament where they had a fair amount of influence to a far right group where they were ignored.
We could have had the same influence as Germany and France but choose not to.
don’t think the quality of debate here is much cop at all.
You're including yourself in that criticism I take it? You can be as blind to next poster when presented with facts that don't confirm to your opinion.
Anyone who doesn’t agree with me is clearly a barely-sentient, semi-literate, unthinking half-wit.
If only everyone actually had enough intelligence to recognise this...
Sadly not, so I must bear the cross of my obvious superiority alone
It can be a lonely place....
Interesting (and astute) opinion piece in the Farmers Guardian. Raises a lot of valid points that I think could apply to just about any group of Brexit voters. Just change the things that people complain about and then see the hypocrisy in arguing for a hard Brexit.
Can you check that link, I got a 404...?
whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission.
Assuming that to actually be true,
One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job, if one didn't have an agenda to peddle which conflicted with such a conclusion. If the parliament were kicking back proposed legislation from the commission at every turn then that would be a greater cause for concern as to the commission's competence, n'est-ce pas?
One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job
Indeed they are. We have lost the ability to achieve consensus politics in the kingdom since "she who shall not be named" was in power. Now it's all "for my party" and not what is in the country's best interest in the manner of "Butskillism".
With luck and a following wind this could signal the death of the Conservative and Unionist Party. In this area only Corbyn is playing a passive blinder and a very long game.
Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers? I’ve been on Pistonheads occasionally and it’s completely the opposite dynamic where the bias is generally towards leave, or at least the most vocal element is. Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker’s approach to life?
Here you have more remainders with older forum members.
Perhaps it is a sign of riding mountainbikes? I don't know.
Education is rather irrelevant as it is an emotional topic.
As for the dissenters I am still here as a person who has voted for Brexit.
People on here generally disagree with me regarding Brexit but they are not shouting as far as I know, but they do have strong opinion though. 😀
p/s: Now watching Channel 4 - Conservative leadership debate ... crikey ... these are bunch of administrators with good life and handsome pension ...
One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job
Or maybe the commission talks to the MEPs and knows what they want, so they draft what they know will be voted through?
Are the lecturns on the Tory leadership debate jam packed cabinets full of snorting candy - for during the ads?
Are the lecturns on the Tory leadership debate jam packed cabinets full of snorting candy – for during the ads?
Boris is right for not attending the Tory leadership debate as I think he would struggle to answer cringe worthy questions. This debate is like saying "Look at me! Look at me! I am beautiful" 😆
And they’d be pretty much useless as whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission.
So does the EU parliament not have to pass laws drafted by the commission?
The commission doesn't work on anything in a vacuum, read up on how it works, and the stake holders that it needs to carry with it to get anything done, and you'll understand better. It has to take the exact opposite of the "dictatorial" approach it is accused of. This is why the criticism of it being slow to create change is very valid… but the idea that is undemocratic is flawed, in my opinion.
This man wants my vote, and knows how to get it…
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1140496212262604800?s=21
I think what you'll find that what that man wants is not your vote, but to be taken outside and shot for his disloyalty to the glorious leader. How dare he speak against the will of the people?!
Tom Watson. Thank you.
I think what you’ll find that what that man wants is not your vote, but to be taken outside and shot for his disloyalty to the glorious leader. How dare he speak against the will of the people?!
Cmon, you must have a Monty Python image to post alongside that. You are slipping.
Ignoring Binners and his fun way of stating the obvious … if there is a snap General Election before we have left the EU, do you think Watson has the right approach as regards talking about the EU? Should policy, and the leadership, follow the path now being pushed for by Watson, Starmer and the overwhelming majority of Labour members? Or should Corbyn carry on regardless?
Tom Watson for lib dem leader, anyone..?
I'd rather he helped the Labour Party get into government and stop Brexit. He has the right aim and the right method. Who wants to vote for a Labour party promising to deliver Brexit, that isn't going to allow a referendum if it wins?
If he did jump ship to the LibDems (he won't) he'll be joining millions of us voters thinking that way… but that is very unlikely to result in Brexit being stopped, sadly.
Dont be silly its absolutely imperative that Labour continue with the strategy that has seen them pummeled in the last 2 national elections, despite what the majority of their voters, members & the electorate may want......