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Sitting on the fence has failed utterly so far
It has held the labour party together far longer than it would have done otherwise. It's very strange and not a little disturbing that previously sensible people have allowed themselves to be sucked in to an entrenched binary position on brexit. You call it sitting on the fence, I call it sensible compromise. This shit-or-bust view of brexit is utterly mental, and is going to lead us to disaster, probably in the form of no-deal with a boris/Farage govt leading it, when the sensible alternative would have been a soft brexit deal as pursued by the current labour leadership.
In fact I'd go as far as to say this has been the plan of the rightwing nutters all along. Their fantasy of a completely deregulated and privatised economy and the destruction of the welfare state was not going to be achieved with brexit alone, but by the destruction of the labour party. They're on the brink of achieving that now, and they couldn't do it without the help of labour supporting remainers.
You could do a lot worse than watch this report from Sky News if you want to get a feel for the Brexit Party
Farage's Demagogue 101 Training he's had in the States is clearly paying off.
A good leader should be able to do that & bring his party & electorate with them.
A good leader? It would need a supernaturally good leader to do that in any sensible timespan.
They’re on the brink of achieving that now, and they couldn’t do it without the help of labour supporting remainers.
Yep. Once again it's all the fault of the Remainers.
Quite incredible.
Yep. Once again it’s all the fault of the Remainers.
It's the fault of many groups of people, and also an inevitable result of an alignment of circumstances beyond the control of any single politician or leader. But yes, I'm afrad, if we end up with a boris/farage led no deal, remainers who have pursued a remain at all costs position instead of accepting a compromise will share quite a lot of the responsibility.
Brexiteers have to remember that whilst Remainers won’t give up, it’s not us that’s stopping Brexit, we could have left by now, but it was Brexiteers who voted against the deal that took 2+ years to negotiate, it wasn’t even the long term plans for the UK post Brexit they couldn’t agree on, it was the withdrawal interim deal.
Brexiteers are the reason we haven’t left, because if you promise contradictory things to different people, you’re not going to be able to deliver it.
^^This^^
'Remaoaners Gonna Remoan' but it's the Brexity Brethren you need to get aligned with whatever version of Brexit is going to happen...
The election results are terrible for labour, but they’re far worse for the Tories who are now embarking on a leadership election where they’ll be fighting like rats in a sack
Any opposition worthy of the name would be massively capitalising on that. But the open goal looks like it’ll be going begging once again
I think we might actually be seeing Labour attempting to capitalise on something here, it's sunk in that they need a sufficiently different position from the Con's to keep their own party intact and the LD/Green?CHUK block of EU voters was about the same as the BXP/UKIP contingent So guess which 1/3rd of the vote they're now chasing?
TBH this doesn't feel like a real attempt to get a 2nd ref' more like they know it's now too little too late, but it's a nice bit virtue signalling towards centre-left remainers, to try and bring them back into the fold in time for the GE... But I don't think for a second that Jezza really means it, He's just going through the motions.
From today's Grauniad: In 2012, the Republican senator Lindsey Graham summed up conservatism’s problem with modern demographics and social attitudes more bluntly, saying: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”
It's clear to see that manufactured rage is the answer to a larger dilemma.
if we end up with a boris/farage led no deal, remainers who have pursued a remain at all costs position instead of accepting a compromise will share quite a lot of the responsibility.
Too funny. From the thinking that brought you "women who dress provocatively are to blame for being raped".
There's been a distinct change in political language over the last ten years - we've started to see "the left" being used to describe virtually anyone who disagrees with the point of view held by a commentator, now it's "remainers" and "the left" being conflated.
The deeper problem is the intellectual bankruptcy behind the ideology - your James Delingpoles and Ben Shapiros are not political experts, they're merely commentators who will pour psuedo-intellectual scorn on whatever target they choose. But they never have solutions to long standing grievances.
Labour will not win an election with JC as leader. He has too many people who dislike him. His policies are almost irrelevant, people do not see him as prime minister material and will not vote for the party.
This opinion comes from speaking to various people at my work who vote for various parties. Some gave him a chance at the last election and others were a no from the beginning. The common consensus is a dislike and disappointment in JC due to his lack of leadership and for failing to be a good opponent against the worst government in history.
For me, his chances of getting my vote entirely depend on circumstance.
Post-Brexit, he's got no chance. I've zero interest in building a low-value currency based socialist utopia based on closed borders.
Pre-Brexit, IF he promises, very clearly (because I don't trust him really) that the moment he's in No10 he will order a 2nd Ref with Remain firmly on the ballot paper, verses a version of the UK post-brexit that's based on Fact and not Unicorns then I might, vote for him, knowing deep down I don't like his views on economy or political position on individual freedoms, but can accept that for the greater good. However if he tries a Corbyn's Deal v No Deal, I'd have consider the danger of no-deal.
But, really for me, Labour have to return to being a centric, for-everyone party for me to love them again.
So can we now start writing letters to Ann Widdecombe about EU parliament as she represents us?
But, really for me, Labour have to return to being a centric, for-everyone party for me to love them again.
Which policies do not fit this description?
Labour have to return to being a centric, for-everyone party for me to love them again.
Ah yes. The centric for everyone party which left a ****load of people feeling disillusioned and looking for alternatives as the centre lurched ever rightwards.
Don't worry. It's purged of all that now. Hence utopia being just round the corner...
Ah yes. The centric for everyone party which left a **** of people feeling disillusioned and looking for alternatives as the centre lurched ever rightwards.
Erm? what?
I'm not sure you've got your dates right. The open, centric Labour party won 3 elections on the bounce. Brown would have won a 4th of it wasn't for a global great recession that started in the US he got blamed for. The Far right in the 90s and early 2000s was a couple of dozen skinheads in the BNP shed and Robert Kilroy-Silk at the head of what became UKIP.
Now we've got a 'proper socialist' in charge of Labour they're getting slaughtered in the Local and EU elections by a Frog in an ill fitting suit and the Lib Dems who everyone hated for getting in bed with the Tories.
We can argue all you like, but as a Labour supporter do you want your Party in power? Then ask them to appeal to the majority, don't expect the population to come to your narrow way of thinking, because it's clearly not working.
****ity-bye?
I'd like Corbyn to be PM, it would be hilarious to see him request an extension then watch the EU try and turn his gibberish request into something workable only for the HoC to reject it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48434842
Amazing. The left in the party call him a War criminal, yet he only gets expelled and very quickly at that, when he votes for someone else.
MUST NOT DEFY THE LEADER.
We can argue all you like, but as a Labour supporter do you want your Party in power? Then ask them to appeal to the majority, don’t expect the population to come to your narrow way of thinking, because it’s clearly not working.
I think the question was which Labour policies do not fit the description of a centric Labour party.
So which policies are they and how are they putting off the majority of voters? And you can't mention Brexit, what actual policies are turning the voters away?
Amazing. The left in the party call him a War criminal, yet he only gets expelled and very quickly at that, when he votes for someone else.
Not amazing at all. Why even be a member of a party that you don't even vote for. If you don't agree with what the party stands for, prefer another party etc,. then leave.
Although I agree that they seem to have addressed this a lot quicker and more effectively than say someone who makes a racist comment.
Not amazing at all. Why even be a member of a party that you don’t even vote for. If you don’t agree with what the party stands for, prefer another party etc,. then leave.
Who did Kate Hoey vote for, btw? What is she doing still in the Labour Party?
https://badboysofbrexit.com/2018/01/16/richard-tice/
"Until 2014, Tice was CEO of CLS Holdings. One of its lucrative projects (before Tice became CEO) was a major leisure/retail development in Vauxhall that was warmly supported by Tice’s fellow Brexit cheerleader, the constituency’s Labour MP Kate Hoey. Tice’s friendship with Hoey goes back 20 years, according to Arron Banks’ book. He led two major planning applications for over 1.5 million sq ft of property in Vauxhall, including for two 50-storey residential towers."
Who did Kate Hoey vote for, btw? What is she doing still in the Labour Party?
F knows, I would have kicked her out years ago. Although there is a difference between being an MP and being a member.
This Kate hoey?
Shows how morally bankrupt Corbyn & the leadership are if they didn't kick her out for giving rarage labour members details
I’m not sure you’ve got your dates right. The open, centric Labour party won 3 elections on the bounce.
Yes with ever decreasing majorities and ever increasing support for alternatives like UKIP and so on. As people caught on to just how little new labour cared about them.
There was a very, very good reason Blair jumped when he did. He knew the game was up and wanted to go out on a high. As for Brown. if he had gone for a vote immediately he might have won but it would have been borderline and very unlikely another win would have been possible.
Look at many of the complaints from the Brexiteers many of them go back to Blair and his high handed very unopen approach to politics.
Under Blair the entire political spectrum lurched rightwards as the tories tried to create some distance between them but he followed. This led to moderate left wing policies now being claimed to be far left whereas hard right policies are normalised.
Then ask them to appeal to the majority
Ok so who is this majority? I think you are confusing it with "swing voters"/"centrists" who arent the majority but are just the ones who can swing a FPTP system. The flaw there is you leave lots of people on either the left or the right feeling unrepresented.
The problem with Labour and JC is that the situation seems a little too much like Kinnock. A perfect opportunity for them to become the party of government but ended up picking an unelectable leader. Yes, JC was quite popular when he first arrived on the scene with his straight talking politics and not wanting to do "gutter politics" and slagging off opponents. But the truth is, now, for a lot of people he is unelectable as a PM.
The EU elections in the UK didn't really show us anything that we didn't already know: The UK is still pretty much divided (nearly 50:50) on whether being in the EU is a good thing or a bad thing. Additionally, the Tories suffered because they have proved to be a bit of a bunch of ****wits over the whole Brexit handling and Labour are equally indecisive. Despite a supposed commitment to a clear set of policies on Brexit, none of the MPs could give a clear or consistent explanation. So the electorate effectively told both of them to do one.
I think it's also a little disingenuous to suggest that all Remain voters knew exactly what they were voting for. They didn't. Ultimately the referendum was a simplistic device that established a general view of do people want to remain within the constructs and direction of the EU or do they distrust the EU and want to leave. The biggest issue is that there are more complications with leaving than remaining but we can't say for sure which one will be best for us long term. The only thing you can say for certainty about remaining is that it allows us to keep the current status quo and a hope that if the EU starts deciding on policies that we don't like we might have a chance of changing or modifying them.
Who did Kate Hoey vote for, btw?
She hasnt said so she cant be kicked out on those grounds.
She has had a vote of no confidence passed by her local party though due to her views but thats a work in progress.
Firing Campbell immediately whilst repeatedly failing to act on anti-Semitism makes party loyalty seem less or more of a priority than racism...
The own goals just keep on coming
Kezia Dugdale wasn't expelled for telling folk to vote Tory in order to keep the SNP at bay.
Looks like the Tory leadership contest is going exactly as predicted. They're all out of the traps ratcheting up the No Deal/Clean Break/rabid fruit loop Brexit rhetoric
By the time all the senile, racist old giffers finally get to vote on it, any candidate not openly advocating annexing large swathes of France and resuming carpet bombing of Dresden will be considered a lily-livered, traitorous enemy of the people
Hmm...if only Campbell had tweeted anti-semtic remarks or had threatened to kill Jess Phillips, he'd have gotten away with a suspension instead of being expelled.
Corbyn's tweets from 2015 praising George Galloway have resurfaced, presumably with the intention of making him look like a colossal hypocrite.
The Tory Party press office must start every day by spending a good half hour absolutely laughing their tits off, then having a moment of silent reflection where they thank the gods for the day Millibean changed the labour party rules and some idiot decided to stick that weird, beardy Marxist bloke on the ballot paper for a bit of a laugh
But the truth is, now, for a lot of people he is unelectable as a PM.
The bookies will give you between 33 and 50 : 1
Stop talking about Corbyn and brexit. It's not about personalities and the biggest challenge since ww2, we need to focus on the finer points of manifesto commitments and conference resolutions, erm, something something illegal war?
The Maybot has just been on the radio news saying that the European elections were "a clear sign that the British people want us to deliver on Brexit".
I mean, looking at the figures, I'd have thought it was a clear sign that a bit more than half the country voted for Remain parties and a bit less than 50% voted for a frog in a suit.
She's been stuck on that "deliver on Brexit" mantra for a while now and it's not really got her very far. Other than decimating her party ranks and causing her to step down...
Tbe majority of voters did vote in favour of parties supporting Brexit, so she is correct.
“a clear sign that the British people want us to deliver on Brexit”.
Did she get challenged on that obviously flawed statement?
20% or so of the country is still not exactly a clear sign that the British people (i.e 100% of them) want anyone to deliver on Brexit. I know, those that don't bother to vote lose their say etc,. but still only 20% of the people.
You’ve got to love John Bercow, winding up the No Deal Brexiteer headbangers again
Can’t wait to see the reaction from Peter Bone, Bill Cash and all the rest of the fruit loops to this announcement 😂
Stop talking about Corbyn and brexit.
Sorry. But every Labour activist I know is anti-Brexit … yet the leader is not. Labour are not the problem, Corbyn is. The party needs to form a position without Corbyn fudging it up, and gain the trust of voters again.
and gain the trust of voters again.
Some voters. They will lose many too. Even with the ones they had they couldn’t win, so they can’t afford to lose any, especially in their core constituencies. You don’t win elections by pissing off your core tribal voters.
The labour movement has always been an uneasy alliance between the working class and middle class left-liberals. They are very different groups culturally and ideologically, but they agreed on the need for a govt that protects and serves those at the bottom. Brexit has destroyed that, and I don’t think there’s any way back. The result will be perpetual right wing govt outside the EU, probably with no deal and at the mercy of US vulture capitalists.
Labour offering a 2nd vote is virtue signalling which will achieve nothing. There have been 2 votes on a 2nd ref which labour whipped to support and both were lost. That won't change until a general election occurs, and if a 2nd vote is labour policy they won't win, so there's no chance of one happening. And even if by some unlikely chain of events a new vote does occur before an election, there's a significant chance it would be lost. And even if remain win, then it's very likely that Farage wins the next election on a policy of leaving again. I can't see any outcome from labour offering a 2nd vote which results in us staying in the EU and/or labour being in govt.
It’s extremely depressing.
so they can’t afford to lose any
Something happened this week, in case you hadn't noticed. They lost voters everywhere.
Moving on… Labour can say, "vote us into office, if you get the chance, and we will have a referendum that includes Remain and our alternative Brexit"… that only stops Brexit if that is the result of the Referendum. Democracy and all that. The current position of only supporting a referendum while in opposition is "virtue signalling", as you put it, yes… it's saying that they have one policy while they don't have the numbers to implement it alone, but if enough of us vote for them at a general election, they'll dump that policy to implement Brexit. Who votes for that…?!! And most importantly, how can Labour activists and members be sent or again to explain that duplicity?
And even if remain win, then it’s very likely that Farage wins the next election on a policy of leaving again
Not impossible. A government being elected from a right wing voter base to implement Brexit could happen. A government being elected from a left wing voter base to implement Brexit won't happen. Scotroutes' pie chart helps you to understand why. Labour aping Farage policy positions won't take many voters from whatever party he is in at the next general election, but it will push lots of voters away to support the SNP, Greens & LibDems.
Not rocket science, is it?
You’d think...