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we need to honour the vote and give the **** that voted for it what they want and let them suffer the consequences.
You seem to misunderstand me. Don't worry though, in these days of polarised black and whiteness I appreciate being somewhere in the middle is a difficult thing to get your head around. My whole point is that reversing the original vote is not as easy as everyone thinks or wants it to be. Even if it is possible, doing so will cause more problems down the line, as we're now seeing with some tinpot fascist funded by US healthcare providers and Russian oligarchs on the brink of power. But yes, we may have to suffer some pain to avoid something much worse later. Of course we could have minimised that pain by doing a soft brexit deal but that has gone now because people on both sides have preferred entrench themselves in their echo chambers.
Slight hijack ...
Guardian News - Tory leadership contest
Looking at the list of candidates for the Conservative Party leadership race, my view is that Conservative party have no quality candidates at all.
The Conservative Party is doomed after the next GE.
I like Andrea Leadsom but she will be bullied on world stage ...
Boris is their only hope but he is unpredictable because he does not know himself.
The rest of candidates are just administrators ...
Other main parties are facing the same problems with no true leader other than administrative determination.
It is really easy. You stick two fingers up to Juncker et al and get on with it.
Because.it.isn't.that.simple.
If you leave the EU you have to have some form of relationship in place unless you want to end all commercial/trading contact with Europe.
This is like arguing with someone who thinks the best way of getting to the moon is by using an escaltor. 'Just get on & build it.'
Is it any wonder that the accusations of stupidity fly around?
Have your head in a bucket of sand for the last 3yrs ?
Legitimate question - if leaving the EU is as easy as we were promised then why haven't we left yet?
If your answer is along the lines of "Because xxxx won't let us/because of MPs who are xxxx" then you've bought into the stab in the back mentality that's so prevalent amongst those who've never bothered to read small print, ever.
Looking at the list of candidates for the Conservative Party leadership race
Which is is now almost larger than the number of MP’s that attended the debate on World Poverty the other week. Tells you everything you need to know.
Dazh, no deal Brexit won't be better than reversing brexit later on down the line. It will cause more polarisation when the economy tanks. People will blame Europe, non EU migrants will become the next target when the economy tanks. It will descend into what happened during the 30s.
Dangerousbrain is tight though, maybe we need to get to a point where we become the most hated nation on the planet to have a rethink like Germany did.
Which is is now almost larger than the number of MP’s that attended the debate on World Poverty the other week. Tells you everything you need to know.
So true ... 🤣
Everyone in the party might as well proclaim him/herself as the leader.
The British politics is facing a testing time ...
It will cause more polarisation when the economy tanks
...start rolling down your local high street to quell the rebellion after the inevitable collapse of society.
philxx1975
It is really easy. You stick two fingers up to Juncker et al and get on with it.
It isn't- even with the hardest of brexits there's all sorts of preparations and decisions to be made, you can't vote the outside world away entirely.
But that isn't the point- "two fingers to Juncker and get on with it" delivers a brexit, but it doesn't deliver the brexit that many brexiteers voted for. That's not a problem for remainers, that's a problem for brexiteers
And it's literally the reason we haven't left the EU. A brexit deal was offered, but not enough brexiteers liked it. It wasn't hard enough for some, it was too hard for others. It was blocked by brexiteers, in fact it was voted down by some of the mentallest most hardcore brexiteers of all.
Brexiteers can complain, once they've decided what brexit they're all getting behind. 52/48 means that practically every last brexit voter- 96% in fact- has to agree with the brexit that actually happens for it to be honouring the referendum results or the "will of the people".
And that's never going to happen, is it? You know that, I know that. And this isn't the work of remainers- it's the work of the Leave campaign, coming home to roost at last. They knew they could only hope to win by offering all possible (and impossible) brexits.
The referendum was a vote for "let's go out and get a drink" vs "let's stay in". Some people wanted a coffee, some people wanted a fine wine, some people wanted to line up the jaegerbombs. And so "let's get a drink" won, but they're still arguing so much about what sort of drink to get, they haven't left the house yet.
And now, the people that wanted a pint of goat semen are insisting that it's the will of the people that everyone else drinks one too, because 52% of people voted to get a drink. They haven't checked yet to see if there's even enough goat spunk in the world, but if it turns out there isn't, that'll be a betrayal by the non-drinkers.
I like Andrea Leadsom...
I’ve got plants in the back garden that are considerably more intelligent, with far more personality.
The only one of the Tory candidates who isn’t a totally unhinged self-serving shyster is Rory Stewart. He actually seems like a decent bloke (very un-Tory). Calm, intelligent and reasoned, with shedloads of real world life experience
He hasn’t got a prayer
Am I logged in aren't I logged in - WTF. Anyhow:
As ever this thread is delightful reflection of the whole process. Reactions and views are more extreme by the day.
But yes, we may have to suffer some pain to avoid something much worse later.
You really think, as a socialist, that the pain of Brexit will avoid something much worse. I assure you that Brexit if it ever happens will be the start of something much worse. All those civilised (EU) rules that limit the crazies will be wiped of the statute books and you'll see poverty, oppression and infighting on that little island like you haven't seen for a couple of centuries.
Vive la révolution !
Northwind, that's a great post.
True dat
But that isn’t the point- “two fingers to Juncker and get on with it” delivers a brexit, but it doesn’t deliver the brexit that many brexiteers voted for
Au contraire
You and many others walked into a polling station
52% thought at that time that's exactly what they were getting with a cherry on top.
48% thought it was a shit idea.
The rest of your viewpoint drinks and all is what is happening now , today, it had nothing to do with the past , there was no small print to read.
I have no doubt the next vote (if there is one) wont come with an education manual either.
52% thought at that time that’s exactly what they were getting with a cherry on top.
All of them? How exactly can you know this?
I'm assuming you've either asked 17.4 million people why they voted for brexit.
Or
Can read minds.
Either way you're wasted here.
I’ve got plants in the back garden that are considerably more intelligent, with far more personality.
Nobody noticed her so no matter what she does might not work hence cannot be a leader but I like her.
The only one of the Tory candidates who isn’t a totally unhinged self-serving shyster is Rory Stewart. He actually seems like a decent bloke (very un-Tory). Calm, intelligent and reasoned, with shedloads of real world life experience
No leadership quality other than administrator.
He hasn’t got a prayer
The entire party has no hope ...
The other main parties will face the same problem ...
Tom Raynor of Sky News is reporting a Jeremy Corbyn email to Labour MPs
"the deadlock in Parliament can now only be broken by the issue going back to the people through a general election or a public vote. We are ready to support a public vote on any deal"
52% thought at that time that’s exactly what they were getting with a cherry on top.
No they didn’t. If they did, we would have left by now.
Firstly the problem with the “simple in / out vote” was it was everything to every man.
Do you want a high value currency tax haven to attract services, finance and rich tax avoiders?
Or a low value currency, closed shop to attract manufacturing and get the ‘under class’ back in work?
Do you not care about the economy and just want to stop immigration and bring back old “British standards”?
Do you want to keep the single market and freedom of movement, but be free to make our own rules and remove the influence of the EU in our rule making?
Brexiteers have to remember that whilst Remainers won’t give up, it’s not us that’s stopping Brexit, we could have left by now, but it was Brexiteers who voted against the deal that took 2+ years to negotiate, it wasn’t even the long term plans for the UK post Brexit they couldn’t agree on, it was the withdrawal interim deal.
Brexiteers are the reason we haven’t left, because if you promise contradictory things to different people, you’re not going to be able to deliver it.
Oh do shut up you quite happily ticked one of the boxes at the time if you weren’t sure you shouldn’t have STOP blaming everyone else.
I'll say what I like. Your ignorance is your failing, not mine.
Tom Raynor of Sky News is reporting a Jeremy Corbyn email to Labour MPs
“the deadlock in Parliament can now only be broken by the issue going back to the people through a general election or a public vote. We are ready to support a public vote on any deal”
That looks like the art of political manoeuvring from JC. 👍 😀
His integrity remain intact and will not go down in history as the person to be blamed.
Unlike his counterpart who said one thing but did the opposite.
If JC supports No Deal strongly he will go down in history as amongst the greatest politicians of his time. 😃
JC true supporters are the working class people that want to leave but his middle class well off supporters want to remain.
What JC can do is to tell their middle class supporters to go to Lib Dem or Green whatever and let Labour be a true Labour leave/brexit party.
If he does that he will be a PM with balls.
Tom Raynor of Sky News is reporting a Jeremy Corbyn email to Labour MPs
Is anybody taking any notice of Corbyn after the EU elections? In the current parliament he is outvoted, and after a general election he'll be watching PM's question time on TV at home.
Is anybody taking any notice of Corbyn after the EU elections? In the current parliament he is outvoted, and after a general election he’ll be watching PM’s question time on TV at home.
Of course JC and soon to be ex-PM faces the same dilemma because both parties consist of both remainders and leavers.
They are all trying to guess the mood of their own supporters which is not easy, and one wrong move either way means decimation of their party as you have already witnessed in the UK EU MEP election.
taxi25
In case you missed it this is from the front page of the leaflet that went through every door in the UK.
yeah, maybe you shouldve read that leaflet all the way through, coz it said how we leave was up fo negotiation after the vote,
just coz the brexiteers were able to sell you whatever fantasy you projected onto brexit, did not mean you were going to get it, hence the last 3 years of circlejerking & its why everyone that just voted for farage is going to end up bitterly disappointed again (when will they learn?)
All of them? How exactly can you know this?
It's Irrelevant I DO know as do YOU that 52% voted to leave.
No they didn’t. If they did, we would have left by now.
Picking the bits that make you feel comfortable won't help dear, the people have had sod all to do with leaving since the Clear and Stable commitment was made by the illustrious shits in Parliament who have only ever jockied for their own self serving policies, as I said previously whichever side you voted , YOU'RE powerless.
Its Irrelevant I DO know as do YOU is that 52% voted to leave.
So what? Three years ago is ancient history in political terms - I’m amazed they’re still pretending to try to leave.
The Brexies all kept quitting and running away - except Dr Fox. But then he’s a bit useless.
I don't have a rebuttal that isn't vacuous rhetoric; therefore it is irrelevant.
I also dislike the self-serving policies enacted by 'illustrious shits' so have voted to give them full and total control to do whatever they want!
The Brexit contradiction in all it's glory.
Corbyn pro referendum now so brexit should be stopping shortly.
He’s still a Brexiteer. I’ll be amazed if his new found commitment to a referendum lasts until tomorrow.
We’ve been here before
He's kicked the can to September now, hasn't he?
Long game…
Tick. Tock.
He’s still a Brexiteer. I’ll be amazed if his new found commitment to a referendum lasts until tomorrow.
We’ve been here before
Yep and the confirmatory ref has been voted against twice. But not by the majority of Labour, or Corbyn.
Great result in the EU elections. We can watch the EU fall apart from a safe distance, just need another Maggie in number 10 to play hardball with the faceless unaccountable technocrats in Brussels. Viva Great Britain 😀
I don’t have a rebuttal that isn’t vacuous rhetoric; therefore it is irrelevant.
How about the one where in 3 years the same 8 people will still be on here arguing about something completely beyond their control.
The only one of the Tory candidates who isn’t a totally unhinged self-serving shyster is Rory Stewart. He actually seems like a decent bloke (very un-Tory). Calm, intelligent and reasoned, with shedloads of real world life experience
Yeah, he seems not as bad as the others. Then you take a look at his voting history and see he is just as much of a tory **** as the rest of them. Anti welfare and pro war with his only savior being that he is not homophobic like a lot of the others.
Dianne Abbott was just interviewed on Radio 4. She said 'we are now prepared to foreground the idea of a 2nd referendum'
WTF does that even mean?
Sounds like individual labor MP's, in the vacuum where leadership should be, are just making it up on the hoof.
The election results are terrible for labour, but they're far worse for the Tories who are now embarking on a leadership election where they'll be fighting like rats in a sack
Any opposition worthy of the name would be massively capitalising on that. But the open goal looks like it'll be going begging once again
Dianne Abbott was just interviewed on Radio 4. She said ‘we are now prepared to foreground the idea of a 2nd referendum’
Turns out she was supposed to be on Radio 2 putting forward the policy that they're now prepared to nineground a 23rd referendum.
Any opposition worthy of the name would be massively capitalising on that.
Probably too too busy trying to stop half his shadow cabinet resigning. This change of direction is going to be a disaster resulting in a new round of internecine fighting, and it won’t stop brexit. The only result will be Boris as PM with Farage pulling his strings. I hope when that happens I don’t see anyone complaining on here.
Eh?
The only result will be Boris as PM with Farage pulling his strings.
Whereas continuing on a path that the voters have just delivered a massive two fingers too, twice in a month, will deliver a labour government at a GE?
When your core vote just voted for the Lib Dem’s, SNP and the Greens, en masse, to reduce you to the worst share of the vote for over 100 years, you need to change direction. You don't just plough on regardless like he has done for the last 3 years. Thats what got the party in to this shambolic mess in the first place.
Even Corbynites like Paul Mason are urging him to re-engage with the real world
Probably too too busy trying to stop half his shadow cabinet resigning. This change of direction is going to be a disaster resulting in a new round of internecine fighting, and it won’t stop brexit.
That's where leadership comes in. A good leader should be able to explain that the only way to protect jobs, standards and an open society is to end this chaos and cancel Brexit, because the alternative is another decade of these bitter divisive negotiations making any other legislative agenda impossible.
A good leader should be able to do that & bring his party & electorate with them.
Sitting on the fence has failed utterly so far, wtf do you think more of the same will work, it's either cowardice or stupidity. Corbyn so far seems to be combining both.
Whereas continuing on a path that the voters have just delivered a massive two fingers too
I’m not saying they shouldn’t back a referendum, it was always inevitable given labour remainers have refused to compromise. However it makes winning an election almost impossible. People who want labour to be a full on remain party need to acknowledge that it also means they won’t win the next election. And it won’t stop brexit either. And you accuse brexiteers of being turkeys who vote for christmas!
except the numbers don't say that. i posted a poll up a few pages back that gave labour a 5 point lead ( IIRC ) over brexit party IF they came out pro-remain and pro second ref.
People who want labour to be a full on remain party need to acknowledge that it also means they won’t win the next election. And it won’t stop brexit either.
Agree. However, would need to see the results of a GE and what coalitions could be formed. The remain parties could form a coalition and the brexit parties could form a coalition and would depend on who has the majority coalition. I would be quite happy having a Labour/Lib Dem/Green coalition party.
Labour will not win an election with JC as leader. He has too many people who dislike him. His policies are almost irrelevant, people do not see him as prime minister material and will not vote for the party.
This opinion comes from speaking to various people at my work who vote for various parties. Some gave him a chance at the last election and others were a no from the beginning. The common consensus is a dislike and disappointment in JC due to his lack of leadership and for failing to be a good opponent against the worst government in history.
Oh do shut up you quite happily ticked one of the boxes at the time if you weren’t sure you shouldn’t have STOP blaming everyone else.
is this aimed at leavers? because i'm pretty sure remainers knew what they were voting for. leavers seem to have a wide selection of flavours of brexit they like, and, as others have pointed out, leavers seem to know precisely what they don't want, but not what they do want. there has to be 'something'. leaving with nothing is not nothing. you will still need 'some' arrangements with the rest of the world, otherwise we're going to have problems keeping the lights on and feeding everyone, just for starters.
How about the one where in 3 years the same 8 people will still be on here arguing about something completely beyond their control.
seems to me that the only one coming in here shouting in the absence of a reasoned argument is you. but you carry on. get it off your chest.
Labour will not win an election with JC as leader
Agreed. Jezza has really pissed off the overwhelmingly Remain membership of the party with constant vacillations and his weakness for reneging upon previous promises.
Indications are that he's going to kick the can down the road until September's conference season starts. I expect that this will also not go down very well with party members.