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Totally ridiculous conclusion to come to. You’re ignoring what’s staring you in the face, which is that a party which didn’t exist 6 weeks ago and who’s single policy is a no deal brexit, won the election. This was a re-run of the referendum, and I’m afraid leave won again. A second referendum won’t change that. Get ready for no deal, it’s happening.
Exactly. The existing party's have ****ed this up and the people for so long now , people want out.They don't trust any of the current political establishment they will vote to get rid.
So wait a minute, I thought voting in the Euro elections went against the desires of the Leave supporters. Surely that means the Brexit party victory means nothing because once we leave the European union all these MEP's will be out of a job anyway.
Considering Farage is so anti European Union, he's still willing to take a wage from them.
Could it be possible that the whole lot of them are just lying scumbags?
The remain vs leave is not just party 1 vs party 2 is it though?Adding together the remain/pro-European Lib Dem, Greens and SNP means they have ‘won’ over the brexshit party and few conservatives and labour.
So this is actually a vote to remain.
That's how I see it too. Labour and the tories lost out to both the 'remain' parties and the Brexshit party, with just their respective hardcore 'my parents before me always voted this way, so I will always vote this way' supporters voting for them.
Could it be possible that the whole lot of them are just lying scumbags?
No that's called a bona fide certainty.
Corbyn just said labour will support a public vote. The Sky News presenter asked him 20 times, and he gave the same answer. Clear enough now?
Stable door. Horse...
So this is actually a vote to remain
Much as I'd like it to be, it's another too close to call "draw" IMO. If we were to call a confirmatory ref' tomorrow, TBH you couldn't forecast it either way based on yesterday's results. The difference is of course that Remainers have nothing to lose and Leavers would have to risk everything they've gained in the last three years, basically the polar opposite of the 2016 vote. Nobody on the Leave side will want to repeat "Cameron's folly".
It's worth remembering that this was of course NOT a Brexit vote/opinion poll, despite everyone in the UK treating it like one it was a vote to select our MEPs. And so we're now effectively sending a bunch of Euro-skeptic nationalists to represent us in the EU parliament, even if it is only for ten minutes before our final flounce out, it's an I odd way to behave as a nation and is unlikely to result in any improved terms over and above the Maybot's deal so we'll done UK...
Hard Brexit beckons.
The vote so far in Scotland.
What deal does Lord Far Far actually want?
Corbyn just said labour will support a public vote. The Sky News presenter asked him 20 times, and he gave the same answer. Clear enough now?
Yes, if it's confirmed by Milne and Lavery.
Hard Brexit beckons.
It's only taken 3 years.
What deal does Lord Far Far actually want?
He's not interested in "deals" he's backed by Aaron Banks and he's interested in mobilising and directing the indignant rage present in at least 1/3rd of the population for whatever purpose his paymaster choses...
Nigel is a former Thacherite who just turned up to the Tory party too late, and hadn't realised that liking money wasn't enough, he really should have gone to Oxford...
As his face didn't fit and UKIP was in the offing he jumped on that bandwagon and the rest is history. Don't think for a second that the man has principles or beliefs, to give him his due he knows how to deliver dog whistle speaches to a receptive audience like very few others, and mainstream politics has created the most receptive audience in a generation...
He's a populist at a time when populism is a winning strategy. It won't last forever, but its working for now.
This was a re-run of the referendum, and I’m afraid leave won again.
Well, I had lots of choices, didn't you? Green and LibDems did "quite well", and I don't recall anyone suggesting that a vote for them was a proxy Leave vote. Together they polled more than the Brexit Party.
And so we’re now effectively sending a bunch of Euro-skeptic nationalists to represent us in the EU parliament
We did in 2014 as well. How long before they start physically fighting each other again, like last time?
is unlikely to result in any improved terms
There will be lots of cooperative MEPs being sent as well, don't forget. But you're right, a quick no deal Brexit will look more advantageous to many working at the EU level once they have to listen in Parliament to the weird rabble that have been elected under the Farage banner.
Yes, if it’s confirmed by Milne and Lavery.
Add Lansman to that and we'll start thinking about taking it seriously.
I agree with your numbers, Codybrenan. The biggest assumption you make is that those voting conservative and labour are the same proportion of leave and remain. However, I suspect they now contain a higher proportion of leavers in labour as only reaminers had a reason to change to a clearly remain option of green/snp/plaid/ld - I think most labour leavers will be happy to vote for Corbyn's labour Brexit. The conservatives are the ones working on leave but failing so I see as many leavers defecting to brexit as remainers defecting to change, green or ld.
we’ll start thinking about taking it seriously
And the equivocation of a general election OR a referendum was also repeated in that interview. Just for the sake of "clarity". People want to vote/support Labour knowing that won't be taken as a mandate to deliver Brexit, without them being asked to approve it. If Labour offer a referendum on any Brexit, not just a Tory Brexit, then they will win back support in droves. The push for Labour members to get the chance to vote on that policy will be building this week, and from all directions within the Labour movement.
Has anyone asked Len? He clearly stated yesterday that the membership has never voted to support a referendum
Which is a new approach
If I say it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. Now everyone genuflect before St Jeremy
I see #CorbynOut is trending on Twitter
It's still comical to see the remainers praying for a second referendum , will it be a case of still be complaining when that is a lose too.
It probably will be lost, I'm not sure that's an argument against the vote being held. Politicians need to propose and campaign for a specific exit… they can not keep saying that they are only taking a course of action (that many admit damages the country) because of a vague and highly mutable proposition made in 2016.
However, I suspect they now contain a higher proportion of leavers in labour as only reaminers had a reason to change to a clearly remain option of green/snp/plaid/ld – I think most labour leavers will be happy to vote for Corbyn’s labour Brexit.
That makes no sense as there was one definite party for leave which is what pulled in a lot of leavers. The Brexit party with the bullfrog hero of the people blowing smoke screens so he could earn another living of the EU.
Totally ridiculous conclusion to come to
It really isn't, Despite everything he's ever said; both UKIP and The Brexit Party are vehicles pretty much entirely for Farage's personal support. This vote reflects that, as much as any thing else.
It’s still comical to see the remainers praying for a second referendum , will it be a case of still be complaining when that is a lose too.
It’s still comical to see the leavers praying not to have a second referendum that they're sure they'd win. Will of the people!
My take from this is that England very clearly wants out, and Scotland very clearly wants to stay in.
The obvious answer is both govts agree to dissolve the treaty that binds us together (Treaty of Union), and then everyone is happy.
I think a second vote is now inevitable. I"m not sure it will resolve anything though. If it's to stay in, then we can look forward to a Boris/Farage govt after the next election. If it's to leave, then we're f***** anyway and we won't care who is in power. The main question is whether a 2nd vote is no deal vs remain, or a deal vs remain. If the latter then parliament is going to need to agree a deal, and that's only going to happen if we have a new election. You can't have a confirmatory vote on something if there's nothing to confirm.
For those worrying about the change in the makeup of the MEPs we're sending to Parliament this time…
2014 : UKIP (Farage) + Tory : 43 seats
2019 : UKIP + Brexit (Farage) + Tory : 33 seats
And yet, relative to the last European elections we’ve seen a slight swing to leave from the centre and a massive swing to remain from the centre.
Votes or seats - take your pick.
The potential to dump Brexit is definitely still there - possibly buoyed by last night’s counts once people sit back and reflect rather than going for the knee jerk reaction.
dazh
Totally ridiculous conclusion to come to. You’re ignoring what’s staring you in the face, which is that a party which didn’t exist 6 weeks ago and who’s single policy is a no deal brexit, won the election. This was a re-run of the referendum, and I’m afraid leave won again. A second referendum won’t change that. Get ready for no deal, it’s happening.
I was just breaking out the numbers, referendum-style- if this is a re-run of the ref, then the numbers seem quite solid to me- and remain would be ahead.
Of course- its not- its an EU election. We're really talking about seats, which will ally into blocks.
I'm not sure it will resolve anything though.
The only thing that will be "resolved" is that a government will seek our permission to Leave in a certain manner (which wasn't made clear when we voted in 2016). There is no path forward that brings this mess to an end… if you want the issue of our relationship with other countries "resolved", or "closed", or "finished", you are entirely out of luck, for at least a decade, come what may.
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Can our new Brexiteer MEP's even go to Brussels? Are they not too concerned that they might fall off the edge of the (extremely flat) world if the try to leave the island?
Well, one of them can drive there without even crossing the channel…
It’s still comical to see the leavers praying not to have a second referendum that they’re sure they’d win. Will of the people!
You wrote , will of the people who will whine and whine ad nauseum till they get their own way wrong.
It’s still comical to see the remainers praying for a second referendum , will it be a case of still be complaining when that is a lose too.
Some might think remain would win, the realists know it would be a proper, dirty fight (on both sides). And a second loss would of course be a final one for any hopes of remaining.
But it's worth asking precisely what the options on the ballot would be, there are still at least two viable flavours of Leaving neither of which our elected representatives could agree on. There is still only one flavour of remaining...
So which version of Leave would be the one to put on a (hypothetical) ballot paper? How many leavers would vote remain in preference to driving off a no deal cliff? How many would vote remain in preference to supporting May's deal (or something derived from it)?
Remainers still have hope, because despite all the bluster and shouting, there is still a significant split in the Leave group, precisely because the 2016 vote was a very broad "in vs out" question...
Some might think remain would win, the realists know it would be a proper, dirty fight (on both sides). And a second loss would of course be a final one for any hopes of remaining.
But it’s worth asking precisely what the options on the ballot would be, there are still at least two viable flavours of Leaving neither of which our elected representatives could agree on. There is still only one flavour of remaining…
So which version of Leave would be the one to put on a (hypothetical) ballot paper? How many leavers would vote remain in preference to driving off a no deal cliff? How many would vote remain in preference to supporting May’s deal (or something derived from it)?
Remainers still have hope, because despite all the bluster and shouting, there is still a significant split in the Leave group, precisely because the 2016 vote was a very broad “in vs out” question…
I like you. You seem to have a balanced handle on it.
You wrote , will of the people who will whine and whine ad nauseum till they get their own way wrong.
Democracies should never ask if people have changed their mind. Gotcha.
Democracies should never ask if people have changed their mind. Gotcha.
Indeed. But you do actually have to implement the result of a vote before you hold another. It's a very simple principle that everyone understands, and the suspension of that principle in this case is why a populist rightwing insurgent party is about to gain huge power.
Some might think remain would win, the realists know it would be a proper, dirty fight (on both sides). And a second loss would of course be a final one for any hopes of remaining.
Naahhhh ... they will never give up the fight because the invisible hands of the EU bureaucrats will be adding fuel to fire.
I foresee, with my crystal ball, the issue will dominate British politics for at least 10 years or for a generation.
Indeed. But you do actually have to implement the result of a vote before you hold another. It’s a very simple principle that everyone understands, and the suspension of that principle in this case is why a populist rightwing insurgent party is about to gain huge power.
It's pretty difficult to implement a result that is so poorly defined, as is now abundantly clear. For example, leave campaigners in 2016 were arguing for a deal so I don't see how there's any mandate for no deal Brexit.
As for populist power, BXP are little ahead of UKIP last time, and there's a pretty good argument that the rightwing vote overall has declined significantly.
Indeed. But you do actually have to implement the result of a vote before you hold another. It’s a very simple principle that everyone understands, and the suspension of that principle in this case is why a populist rightwing insurgent party is about to gain huge power.
2 PM's have failed (ok, the first didn't even try), when exactly should we draw the line on this farce?
Edit: maybe we should have another vote right before leaving, like one of Microsoft's (in)famous 'are you sure you want to....' messages 😀
Ransos, what is the Brexit party if it's not populist? It's populist far right untill you give me good reason to believe other wise, and you'll have trouble because it's so populist and personality based it uses this as a manifesto:
😉
and the suspension of that principle in this case is why a populist rightwing insurgent party is about to gain huge power.
Nah, the reason that is possible, is because the two main parties have failed to challenge the populist rhetoric and instead have gone along with promising unachievable brexit unicorns. But I see you are back on the "stop the right wing populists by giving in to all their demands" bandwagon.
It’s pretty difficult to implement a result that is so poorly defined
Should the UK leave the European Union or remain? What's so difficult to understand about that? I know remainers are desperate to grasp any straw in order to reverse the result of the 2016 vote, but in the eyes of leavers it's very simple. There was a chance we could leave with minimal impact via a soft brexit, but we didn't and now we are going to leave with no deal.
and there’s a pretty good argument that the rightwing vote overall has declined significantly.
For god's sake man Farage just won an election on a platform of no deal! And he's promising to expand that into a wider populist programme at the next general election. I'm pretty shocked at how relaxed and hubristic people are being about this. What happened in the US is now happening here and everyone's looking for any available excuse to deny it.
Ransos, what is the Brexit party if it’s not populist? It’s populist far right untill you give me good reason to believe other wise, and you’ll have trouble because it’s so populist and personality based it uses this as a manifesto:
https://thebrexitparty.com/
/blockquote>*we’re not really Nigel Farage, but the text above is lifted straight from a Brexit Party leaflet. Apart from the sentence about the manifesto. Nigel Farage has refused to publish one ahead of the elections so we’ve done it for him based on his own words and the statements and policies of his Brexit Party candidates. If like us you think it's important to hold Farage and his candidates to account as they seek election, you can chip in to the campaign, download and spread the artwork (we'll update it as we go) or follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Keep watching as we paste this Brexit Party manifesto across the country. Led By Donkeys x
👆👆👆 .... such underhand tactics ... I mean who fund them for all those billboards? 🤣🤣🤣
This is the real Brexit Party website
Brexit Party . Org NOT . Com
Hard Brexit 34.9%
Con/Lab 23.2%
Remain 40.4%