Forum menu
but as long as their donors keep stumping up the cash to push their objectives
Dponors are stopping donating. Most do0nations come from businesses who are being devastated by brexit. combine this with the loss of members and you see a party in big trouble.
Are we living in a disinformation age?
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1123152055684804609?s=21
Interesting but depressing poll results on where people think the parties stand on Brexit.
Are we living in a disinformation age?
Nah.... its just the lazy and stupid age
In other developments...
round of applause for newsthump
Edukator – the right wing vote is now going to be split 3 or 4 ways. the left wing vote ( in england) is not.
[The Tories] are not recruiting young members or voters> Their base for mobilising the vote no longer exists.
I'd say that Labour's pro-Brexit policy is directly contradicting these statements - young people are overwhelmingly pro-Remain, and they, and other Remainers (such as me) will definitely not vote for pro-Brexit Labour.
Checking out Tory party donors suggests they haven't stopped donating. John Gore is the one of the big donors and he's still regularly chipping in. No reason not to, like many of them his business model isn't EU dependent. Donations are in a lull because there's no election on the horizon but the millions will flow again as soon as Tory donors need to invest in keeping their tax bils down and privileges in place. Anyhow have look at how donations were going up to July 2018:
https://www.peoples-vote.uk/meet_the_people_paying_7_million_to_have_dinner_with_theresa_may_and_senior_cabinet_ministers
prepare to be ashamed to be British
My preparations are well under way. I'm in 'embarrassed to be British' at the mo. I can only assume anyone who can think for themselves is too.
Last night I stood in my kitchen looking at the ballot paper for local elections. I was going to Labour, as our candidate seemed nice enough, says the right things, and our Labour MP is one of the good ones. Then I just thought '**** it, there's only one game in town at the moment' and put a big fat x next to the lib dem candidate. Labour are not doing what I want them to, despite my MP's best efforts, and apparently the wishes of party, members, and supporters. I'm afraid they get no further support from me.
Then I just thought ‘**** it, there’s only one game in town at the moment’ and put a big fat x next to the lib dem candidate. Labour are not doing what I want them to, despite my MP’s best efforts, and apparently the wishes of party, members, and supporters. I’m afraid they get no further support from me.
yup this is where Im at too
Nah…. its just the lazy and stupid age
That's the kind of logic that creates the very thing you are annoyed at. You are presupposing your view to be the logical one without looking at the needs of others.
Step further back from Brexit and then figure it out.
The poll he was commenting on was about Brexit. Specifically what people thought the Brexit policy of each party is. How can you "step further back from Brexit" when talking about that?!? I thought it showed people are still being misinformed or misled as to what the parties are actively pursuing… where as Binners thinks they are just being too lazy, or too stupid, to find out for themselves. What do you think @rone?
Where's the logic in denying oneself the ability to work and live anywhere in the EU and get treated if you fall ill without even needing insurance? The logic in creating barriers to trade with your biggest trading partner, the logic in biting the hand that literally feeds you?
where as Binners thinks they are just being too lazy, or too stupid, to find out for themselves
That's exactly what I'm saying. Just read those statistics. In that survey, there are 71% of people who think UKIP is a pro-Brexit party. That means there are 29% who don't.
How ****ing lazy and stupid can you get, exactly?
And some idiot thought it would be wise to put the future of our country to a referendum where people so catastrophically ill-informed actually get to vote.
Is it any wonder we're in this mess?
Anyway... back on topic, the Labour NEC has said that they will support a second referendum only under certain caveats - the usual Corbynite calls for a general election etc. blah, blah *ing blah....
So those caveats are enough to basically say 'there's no way on earth we're having a second referendum as we wholeheartedly support Brexit'
So now that they've clarified that, the labour party can * right off!
Hopefully Tom Watson is going to lock someone in his shed for the next few months.
Anyway… back on topic, the Labour NEC has said that they will support a second referendum only under certain caveats
Foot. Shotgun. Point-blank range.
Ha Ha. Just saw this one.
Where’s the logic in denying oneself..
There is none. But ask they average brexit voter and they'll tell you that's not what they voted for.
Once agai9n a total misrepresentation of labour policy from so called labour supporters.
You guys make me laugh and despair at the same time. How yo0u can keep on so totally misrepresenting what labour policy is is beyond me.
There are NO caveats and the policy does not mean hard brexit at all costs. Its not what I would like to see but it is a million miles from what you guys keep describing
Labour’s European elections manifesto was agreed at the NEC today and it will be published soon.
Labour is the only party which represents both people who supported leave and remain. We are working to bring the country together after the chaos and crisis created by the Tories.
The NEC meeting was described as respectful, constructive and comradely. Afterwards a source said:
The NEC agreed the manifesto which will be fully in line with Labour’s existing policy; to support Labour’s alternative plan, and if we can’t get the necessary changes to the government’s deal, or a general election, to back the option of a public vote.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1123252174883033112
well Labour's plan is to continue sitting on the fence
stuff 'em
Im off to vote libdem/chuk/green, whoever
As I said - Schrodingers Referendum. Labour will support it as long as they are in no position to deliver it.
There are NO caveats
If you believe that, I have absolutely zero respect for your ability to analyse anything.
the policy does not mean hard brexit
Ending Freedom of Movement of workers means a Hard Brexit. Pretending overwise is selling unicorns. The SNP showed ways of pursuing a Soft Brexit. Labour and Tories have torpedoed all of them because FoM is a redline for both of them. A vote for Labour or Tories is a vote for different forms of the same Hard Brexit, with some customs agreements (mostly because it is not credible that the UK can be made ready to operate without them in a timely fashion).
to support Labour's alternative plan
I do not support their Brexit "plan"… so I can not give them my support. Makes it simple for me.
Waste your vote then and help the tories? cutting of your nose to spite your face.
So vote for labour! They're awful and support Brexit but at least they're not the Tories?
A brilliant election pitch!
Like I said: they can **** right off!
Therre are no caveats - I don't think the word means what you think it does.
: a warning enjoining one from certain acts or practices a caveat against unfair practices
b : an explanation to prevent misinterpretation
c : a modifying or cautionary detail to be considered when evaluating, interpreting, or doing something The driving instructor gave his students this caveat: if you are driving under the speed limit, stay in the far right lane.
2 : a legal warning to a judicial officer to suspend a proceeding until the opposition has a hearing
I don't want Brexit.
I will not vote for a party that wants Brexit.
You guys make me laugh and despair at the same time. How yo0u can keep on so totally misrepresenting what labour policy is is beyond me.
From your quote I can see nothing to say Labour is a Remain party, TJ. It isn't, it's a Brexit party that wants a different Brexit to the Tories. As for bringing people together they've got no hope. Brexit has divided people as no other in my political lifetime. Breiters and Brexit apologists are in the same camp AFAIC, and not to be voted for (not that I have a vote). This is Labour poilicy for all to see:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38833883
"They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled."
So you Know who to vote for, Plaid in Wales, the SNP is Scotland and the Libdems (wince) in England. Those might be painful choices but if you are are opposed to Brexit those are the parties with a record on voting your way.
Labour is the only party which represents both people who supported leave and remain
That's truly a new and special breed of Brexitcorn.
Surely people either support leave or remain, it's a bit of a binary thingummy.
And, what zippykona said.
That’s truly a new and special breed of Brexitcorn.
Yep, there are some suckers buying into it though. Fortunately I think most have now seen through smoke and mirrors, they got away with the trick at conference, now it isn't only voters it is party members and activists who will be leaving in their droves.
Buy trying to be everything to everybody, they now represent nothing to nobody.
And they have probably killed any hope of a 2nd ref buy their indecision.
I won't be voting Labour or Conservative, but haven't Labour now committed to a people's vote by default ?
Labour is only pledged to support a fresh referendum if it cannot secure “the necessary changes to the government’s deal or a general election”.
The Conservatives won't give them customs union or single market or environmental standards or workers rights.
May has said one week to agree or the talks are off.
There won't be a GE... So now labour are committed to backing a peoples vote, we just have to wait for the collapsed cross party talks to be formally called of in a week.
Some (many?) people will be gullible enough to accept that line. Look how many people in that poll still think that Labour is anti-Brexit…
Waste your vote then and help the tories?
You don't vote Labour, and yet keep painting others as simply helping the Tories if they don't vote Labour.
The Labour Party (leadership) needs to listen to its members and voters if it wants to keep their support.
Mattyfez I admire your optimism.....
Well they are saying they demand single market and CU, and an end to FOM.
That, as we all know is incomparable with the EU and tories. So a nonsense.
They've now committed to a people's vote if the tories won't budge. Which they won't.
Labour have also ruled out 'no deal' So it's just a question of what the ref will be, Labour unicorns the EU will never accept or remain.
There aren't any other options.
I don’t want Brexit.
I will not vote for a party that wants Brexit.
I also don't want Brexit but as both parties who actually have chance of being in government are going to look to deliver a Brexit of some kind then I will vote Labour as they will give a shit about society, equality etc,.
It is all irrelevant for me anyway as I am in a 65% tory seat and that only lower when the UKIP vote was a bit higher.
From your quote I can see nothing to say Labour is a Remain party
More remain fantasies. You are entirely correct, and the reason for that is labour, as with all the other parties in a position to be a government (ie the tories) are primarily democratic parties. If they go against democracy, or more importantly the perception of it, they relinquish their hopes of governing. Just what is it about that fact (and it is a fact despite the logical gymnastics that will again be repeated) that you lot don’t understand?
By all means vote for a remain party, but be aware that all you will do is keep the tories in power and receive the real hard Brexit which you claim you don’t want.
labour, as with all the other parties in a position to be a government (ie the tories) are primarily democratic parties.
If your definition of democratic involves going directly against the wishes of 68% of the people who voted for you, sure. It's a bit of an odd definition, but I guess in a world where we are allowed our own facts, words can mean whatever we want too.
The Tory brexit bus has juddered to a halt but Theresa is still strapped into the driving seat. There is no need for Labour to change their position on another refendum. Cameron's belief in a referendum to settle things is what got us into this mess, any re-run will be complicated and the result uncertain- so Labour need maintain flexibility so long as the timing and nature of another referendum remain in the gift of the Tories, so as the DUP carry on propping them up.
There is no need for Labour to change their position on another refendum
Another rational non-bandwagon jumping voice. Welcome!
And some idiot thought it would be wise to put the future of our country to a referendum where people so catastrophically ill-informed actually get to vote.
Precisely the argument(when they weren't imprisoning or killing them) the ruling elite used for hundreds of years when those pesky, illiterate,unwashed, brawling, drunken ,licentious proles were clamouring for universal suffrage.It's no wonder you don't like Labour binners.
Are you arguing for or against the proles having a say on whatever the politicians cook up for us?
Are you arguing for or against the proles having a say on whatever the politicians cook up for us?
I see what you did there 😉
If you are Labour, you are in favour of folk getting a say on whatever the Tories come up with, but not on whatever Labour come up with. A fair, honest and principled position, I'm sure you will all agree.
If your definition of democratic involves going directly against the wishes of 68% of the people
Hence why I said the ‘perception’ of it. It’s irrelevant whether it is democratic or not, the only thing that matters to political parties is whether the voters believe it is, and on brexit they definitely do.
More than happy to have a debate on the shortcomings of democracy though if you like, I can trot out all my old anarchist stuff from back in the day.
Who is creating that "perception"…?
And who is working to change it?
What a shitshow and what a terrible indictment of our politics.
Both major parties in thrall to the racist/xenophobic/bigoted/insular/backward-looking vote. One middle class, the other working class, but with more in common when it really gets down to the nasty than divides them. The gutter press has done its job magnificently.
This country is screwed.