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I think most people can agree that the system is somewhat broken. And whilst there is plenty of room for improvement, I really dislike that phrase because the real problem comes down to bad management from the government which introduced the entire idea without any kind of credible plan for implementing it.
We are now all acutely aware of this position and the damage that it has already caused.
Is it really democratic to continue down an eroded path, built on the poorest foundations, sold to the people through illegal means, when evidence suggests the majority of those people no longer wish to venture down there?
There is something badly wrong if there is no way to democratically stop such a damaging process.
How about telling all the shouty anti-democracy types:
“The amount of money already spent on Brexit & No-deal planning would pay for all the teachers/police/youth workers we need to sort out knife crime and give our kids the education they deserve”
Because they don't care.
They care about being on the winning side, whatever that victory looks like.
shouldn’t Donald Tusk be banned from activities like this
I didn't think I could like Donald Tusk any more.
What people don’t understand is the idea of having another vote on something before the result of the original is enacted.
The problem is that when it's explained to them clearly and concisely they still continue to come out with fictional nonsense like the accusation that absolutely anyone at all is "saying we should ignore democracy".
You're right though, the solution is education. I'm surprised it's not been mentioned before, but the referendum was advisory and we do not have direct democracy in this country. The government revoked A50 by their own volition rather than because the referendum instructed them to do so - as established in the court case a couple of months back. The leavers and leaver apologists are (probably wilfully) ignoring this, the sooner they get it into their skulls the easier all this will be. "Democracy" has been redefined as "anyone who agrees with us," and that's a travesty.
A 2nd vote needs a cast-iron, unanswerable argument.
Well, a) no it doesn't, it needs the government / parliament to say "we're holding a referendum," and b) there is one. Again, I'm amazed no-one has mentioned it before.
When we voted to leave in 2016 we had no idea what was actually on offer beyond "leaving" and no clue what that might entail. Now we do, we have an agreement in black and white which the EU27 has accepted.
As Del said, there's lots of reasons why people they voted to leave and thus by extension May's deal may or may not satisfy their desires. Another referendum isn't a vote on the same question as before, it's now "this is what we've come up with, is it what you want?"
I think most people can agree that the system is somewhat broken.
Really?
The system has allowed MPs to stop the PM doing whatever the hell she wants, and has started trying to force a consensus. It's forced the PM to attempt a cross party agreement. The system isn't broken; but the government is incompetent. Cameron's ref was an incredibly stupid idea, executed incredibly badly by May.
If you are expecting the system to return a competent government, you can dream on, because that part is on us, the electorate.
Anyway - France suggesting they won't allow an extension without a good reason, which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
They'll go for no deal as to do that requires no action. Revocation will require a commons vote, and seeing as they can't even get mild soft brexit options through why would anyone believe revocation will be more successful?
The only solution is a deal. The extremes on both sides though seem intent on preventing one. Madness.
which forces us to choose between revoke and no deal.
Why does that preclude the deal the EU has already accepted and we're still squabbling over?
The only solution is a deal. The extremes on both sides though seem intent on preventing one. Madness.
The only solution is to remain. The extremes on one side though seem intent on preventing it. Madness.
The only solution is to remain. The extremes on one side though seem intent on preventing it. Madness.
And that is why we are in this mess. It really is a bit like climate change denial. Just keep your eyes closed and hope it will all go away. I really can't get my head around it.
Why does that preclude the deal the EU has already accepted and we’re still squabbling over?
Because it's been rejected so many times.
why would anyone believe revocation will be more successful?
I don't know if it would tbh.
Vote for who ever you agree with, even if they can’t win.
UKIP's vote doubled in the Newport by election 😉 poor 37% turnout though.
It would affect the turnout figures and politicians could be challenged as to why they thought they could speak for us all when getting less than 20% of the votes, for example.
You mean like in the EU parliament,total turnout 35% and police commisioners elections,total turnout 15 % in 2012?? 😉
If my or any other trade union wants to go on strike we are required by law to have a 50% turnout or it isn't valid....even though 85% voted for strike action over paylast year
Someone in the Indy suggesting that the EU can't allow no-deal because of what it would do to Ireland:
The first [possibility] is that the EU grants the UK a never-ending series of extensions to Article 50 until the reality that leaving the bloc is a practical impossibility becomes apparent to even the most truculent Brexiteer. Rather like the way in which Turkey was promised the right to enter the EU back in 1961 but all concerned have never quite got around to organising it, so too with Brexit – a permanent question mark over Britain’s membership of the EU, from which neither side can disentangle itself.
The second option is that the UK simply revokes Article 50, recognising at long last that the Brexit project is collapsing under the weight of its own logical contradictions.
I really can’t get my head around it.
It's simple really.
"We" voted to Leave back in 2016.
It's now 2019 and "we" have not been presented with a form of Leave "we" prefer to keeping membership. Perhaps there isn't one? If there is, than those that proposed that we Leave should get behind it, get it through Parliament, and then campaign for the public to vote for it in a Referendum. If there is only a minority of MPs and the public that prefer a particular form of Leave, then it should not be forced on us.
EU have rejected May's extension request, as it is too vague in the supposed plan to break the deadlock.
It is boys against men, and the UK's humiliation gets worst every second it continues.
Wise (for them). What would be the point in another month of this? A decision needs making. We're ready to make it if May & MPs won't… they can just ask us. If she says she'll ask us, the EU & the other European governments will probably throw us a bone and allow a delay while that process is carried out.
If she just wants to can kick instead… there is only one way of doing so and not be subservient to other governments…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1114090313432408064?s=21
And that is why we are in this mess.
Because people keep making unsubstantiated claims and then changing the subject when challenged on it, only to then repeat the same thing a few days later? I agree.
Because it’s been rejected so many times.
... by us. We could go "oh, OK then" on May's deal tomorrow, could we not?
Sorry to drag this back to "even a no confidence vote won't stop a no deal exit if May decides the Tory party insist on it"… but this thread explains it well…
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1114207033480372224?s=21
Labour whipping to abstain on the vote to give parliament a vote on revoke vs no deal, if it comes to that in the final days, leaves May with all the power. Why did that whip occur, when all it did was prevent unilateral destructive power being removed from May's hands? That was the point where even a fresh pivot to a genuinely pro referendum position will not win me over… that was the move that means the current leadership must go for Labour to be trusted, for me. It not only kept no deal in play, but it abdicated the leadership's responsibility to take power from the Tory government where it can, for the people who voted Labour (including me) to deny May power.
So managed a good days riding....
On eu elections my mother looks after the local village hall which is the polling station a please can we book it message came through this week.
The bigger issue is the kicking the tories will get in the locals, that could do for May with the party.
On the 2nd ref to cut through all the crap, leave fluked it, they got the wind right, went at the tight time and landed where they wanted. The chances of it happening again aslre slim that is the only reason people suddenly give a shit about manifesto promises and democratic principles, so long as they can block anything that will stop brexit that is legit. More people need to be called out on that.
I'm guessing may will be out soon to say Labour tried to extort her etc.
If you look around at the moment I'd much rather be governed by the eu than this lot.
That was the point where even a fresh pivot to a genuinely pro referendum position will not win me over
I’m sure the labour leadership we’re really worried about what your opinion is 😀
Seriously though, you know full well the vote on revocation vs no deal would never carry so why would you expect labour to damage itself by whipping for it?
Meanwhile,
Carl Husted, who is standing in upcoming Nottingham City Council elections, wrote on Facebook... “The petition to revoke Article 50 now has the same number of signatures as the number of people who voted for Hitler’s Nazi party in 1930 Germany.
“Although Hitler didn’t have the benefit of petition signing bots and signatures from North Korea, Syria, Russia etc. So not quite as popular as 1930s nazism but edging closer. #godwinslaw.”
Because we are only a couple of days away before we don't have the time to have a say and we have to rely on May not to not go with no deal, by revoking.
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit Dazh.
If you don't get that, you are deluded or a brexiteer in disguise.
#godwinslaw
Is that a new hipster slaw?
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit Dazh.
Labour cannot facilitate it (other than whipping for a no deal) They can try and reason, get a different approach and so on but ultimately they have no really say in it if May won't budge (which she won't).
That does not mean they will not suffer, there are moments now where no clear strategy is hurting them. No direction is helping in the chaos.
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit
The Labour Party will suffer whatever they do, that much is evident, and it’s why they have a policy seeking a middle way. Like I said, brexit denial is a strong and pervasive phenomenon. If we end up with no deal it will be because people on both sides have failed to see that there are two sides to this and neither is strong enough on their own to come out on top. If labour have failed in anything, it’s that they haven’t been able to persuade people to compromise on their entrenched positions, but blaming them for Brexit itself is pretty stupid.
@dazh they will suffer whatever, which is why they have picked the piss everyone off position.
They now have their hands on the brexit knife, their whipping will be subject to scrutiny in the event of no deal.
TBH if we end up with no dealnit will be because people are obsessed with delivering something regardless of the cost. That will haunt those involved and hopefully finish a lot.
I don't think anyone has explained why no deal is good so how anyone can stand behind it is... Wel let's just call it an interesting position.
We have local elections right now are Labour preaching the truth about brexit at those to the public?
Labour cannot facilitate it
THEY WHIPPED TO ENSURE MAY KEPT THE POWER TO ENABLE IT.
If May allows it to happen, the Labour leadership will have facilitated it. Glad half of Labour MPs ignored the whip, and voted in favour of May losing that power… the rest… well…
…would never carry so why would you expect labour to damage itself by whipping for it?
I took you through the basic maths pages ago. It stood a good chance… the Labour leadership killed it. Abstaining on a vote to remove power from May was a slap in the face for anyone who voted Labour to take power from May and her government.
brexit denial is a strong and pervasive phenomenon.
I must have imagined Tom Watson on 4 this morning restating Labour policy for a PV in absence of a GE WHICH THEY HAVE FAILED TO GET AND WOULD LOSE EVEN IF THEY DID.
I’m enjoying trying to figure out what is annoying the gammons more.
Is it Tusk as ‘that damned forriner’ is manipulating us by offering a year long extension when our Teresa is only needing six months?
Or is it Macron as ‘that damned forriner’ is telling us what to do by saying we can’t have any extension unless we prove we aren’t just can kicking?
But then I just think that the gammons hate most things anyway, and everything ‘forrin’, so the mere fact that they are pissed off is lovely in its own right.
GE WHICH THEY HAVE FAILED TO GET AND WOULD LOSE EVEN IF THEY DID.
What makes you think they can get a PV instead? Once again you blame them for not achieving something they don’t have the numbers for. More denial basically. When are you going to realise that the Labour Party are not the problem here? It’s becoming quite hysterical tbh. I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
Yes, we are all in denial @dazh, we get it. The second largest party has no power at all when there is a minority government with its party split and in freefall, with a leader who is hemorrhaging loyalty (and MPs).
I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
Do you really, though?
Given most of the last 1,638 pages, I would say that was an odd thing to conclude.
I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
In that case you really haven't been paying attention
when there is a minority government with its party split
And there is the fallacy. The tories may be split but they still vote en masse together*. They also are a minority, but they are consistently propped up by the DUP. When it comes to voting for brexit bills they are neither, they are a majority, and that's why labour have failed to do what you want them to.
*ignoring rebels on both sides which tend to cancel each other out.
And finally, the SNP’s emergency-parachute option, whereby failure to agree a deal by the April 12 deadline would result in Article 50 being revoked rather than no-deal Brexit, lost because Labour whipped their MPs to abstain on it, although a brave 121 of them rebelled and backed the proposal anyway.
If Labour had whipped to support the plan, it would have garnered another 123 votes and passed by a majority of 22 even despite 18 Labour MPs voting against it.
It's not a blue passport though.
It's not blue!!
Thinking past the current saga, if we do actually leave the EU, deal or no deal the net result will be the same, in time. We will more than likely end up in a customs union and have to accept free movement of people.
This is all pointless. We currently have the best deal... being in the EU
This is all pointless. We have the best deal already
Well shaft me sideways, who'd a thunk it.
Sorry I edited my post to be clear, in case anyone thought I meant TM's deal was the best!
I know I'm being obvious but you can only see it if you take a step back from the current hysteria...
I know I’m being obvious but you can only see it if you take a step back from the current hysteria…
Or if you never bought into the hysteria in the first place. It is blindingly obvious, but if you devalue common sense and ‘brains’......
Telegraph is great today - they've given up on any pretence of 'good of the country' and just talking about 'good of conservative party' 🙂 Important thing is to keep the party together. Tossers.