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Same thing - Brexit is not good for the country and the tory party are not good for the country.
Opposite things … saving the Tory party by pushing through either a no deal Brexit, or the Withdrawal Agreement as it stands, would be at the expense of the country. Reject Brexit (we'll do it for them if the politicians ask us) and the Tory party will be wrecked for a decade, and the damage to the country minimised/reduced. Only a handful of Tories will put county before party though… so it's essential that just about all opposition MPs wake up and see what the real choice in front of them is.
What makes you think they can get a PV instead? Once again you blame them for not achieving something they don’t have the numbers for. More denial basically
Tom Watson seemed to be saying this was an aim. I'm not saying they have a better chance of getting this than a GE, only that they failed to win a no confidence vote, did not achieve their GE objective, so it's time to focus on the next objective. Quite a lot of MPs seem to think that too. I don't know why you would have a problem with it if you thought Brexit was damaging and you hope to limit that damage. Whatever happens there's going to be a whole load of grumpy people out there. Why inflict the economic damage on us and our partners and have grumpy people, when you could at least avoid the economic fall out of Brexit by giving the public the final say?
"We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the negotiation is completed."
Jacob Rees-Mogg, 09:00 am - 24 Oct 2011
Are you ready for this?
Nothing that will suprise anyone who was reading this thread a few years ago…
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1114516654606700545?s=21
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1114228568719003649?s=21
So my optimism that May actually meant she was seeking consensus was misplaced. Refusing to budge on any red lines bar perhaps a little bit of non binding fudge and totally refusing a second vote when pressed by labour.
So it really was more poli9ticing and an attempt to get labour to own the shitshow - and one thats failed completely. Labour can look reasonable and helpful, May just looks totally intransigent.
I don’t know why you would have a problem with it if you thought Brexit was damaging
Yawn. Once again, for the benefit of those who haven’t read my other posts, I don’t have a problem with a 2nd vote, and I do think brexit is damaging. Just because I think that though doesn’t mean I’ve blinded myself to those who disagree.
No, I've read all your posts, you seem hell bent on going for whatever version of Brexit that gets served up.
I know people talk about a no-deal as driving off the edge of a cliff but to be honest I think we're already off the edge and falling, it just depends which ledge we actually grab onto to save ourselves. No Deal is hitting the floor at the bottom.
The Maybot not actually listening to anyone and refusing to compromise?
Well, who’d have thunk it?
Summed up well by Matthew Paris...
And that’s what her own colleagues in her own party think of her. This was always a window dressing exercise to try and spread the blame
^^
Jonathan Pie has a very similar take on the above.
“I just feel we have under-estimated its complexity. We are unpicking 45 years of in-depth integration. This needed to be done with very great care, in a phased and graduated way. It needs a hard-headed understanding of realities”
I listened to it on Thursday and very rapidly came to the conclusion that he’s a ****ing deluded monied privileged idiot, towards the end he harks on about the hundreds of years when the uk ranked #1 in trade deals before joining the EU which he called a blip in British history.
Get back in your box, cox.
I've just listened to an interview with the totally-detatched-from-reality Pritti Patel
The general gist of it was along the same lines as Andrea Leadsom on Andrew Marr yesterday
Interesting to see Oborne breaking cover in his piece for Open Democracy.
https://twitter.com/obornetweets/status/1114955521541443585?s=21
Telegraph is great today – they’ve given up on any pretence of ‘good of the country’ and just talking about ‘good of conservative party’
+1
Utter failure from any of the stories I read to continue with the usual propaganda about how awesumz Brexit will be for every man, woman, unicorn, pixie, and child, and just every item was "Quick! Save the Tories! At All Costs!"
If any good comes of this, it will be a removal of the worst idiots present in the commons.
Oborne article is a fair bit of humble pie BUT
he still proceeds to trot out the same tired lies that got us in this mess
When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.
which is untrue, May herself suspended exit checks & slashed border staffing, so even if we wnated to we couldnt have used full range of EU powers to rpatriate EU citizens who had been here for 3mths with no work etc (because a flexible labour forceis what industry wants)
I think that piece from Peter Oborne is fair - big question he poses is reform of the EU (a lot of remainers want this, I know I do) and how do we get this to happen ? the Eurocrats aren't seemingly interested in responding but all the major nations have antiEU agitators (wiilders, LePen, AfD, UKIP, Legia Nord etc) which need to be tackled because they aren't nice people.
...all the major nations have antiEU agitators (wiilders, LePen, AfD, UKIP, Legia Nord etc) which need to be tackled because they aren’t nice people.
There's much more going on than simply a popular resurgence of the nationalist far right...such organisations rely on funding and it's worth following the money to see where it leads.
It hasn't helped that the EU has been a convenient scapegoat for any unpopular legislation - for example that shining example of competence himself Chris Grayling explained that leaving the EU will make rail fares cheaper because of EU standards on platform height - again, completely untrue but it tapped into popular resentment against government policy which is to make stuff as expensive as possible.
US business leaders and tech organisations are unhappy at the fact that a single market comprising of half a billion consumers has been able to improve consumer protection and hold firms accountable for misuse of data. Russia has strategic motives for curtailing the power of the EU, especially after the interventions in Ukraine a decade or so ago.
Certain ultra-conservative figures in the middle east are unhappy that the EU is a bastion of social liberalism too.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/europe-s-far-right-enjoys-backing-russia-s-putin-n718926
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/bannon-europe-plan-law-13-targeted-countries-trump
This should get a fair few of you excited. Can't see it myself, although it would be the perfect outcome. May unilaterally cancelling brexit and exploding the party which now hates her could be the legacy she so longs for. Given the abuse she is now suffering at the hands of her fellow tories I doubt anyone would blame her. It would be quite the turn of events if May is remembered for saving us from brexit and ridding us of the tories 🙂
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1115170767602364416
It's the hope that kills you.
Good to see some of the ERG fruitcakes demanding a second referendum sorry no confidence vote in the maybot.
So ‘Taking Back Control’ now amounts to the Maybot flying off to Berlin and Paris to plead with the Germans and French, with 5 days to go, to save us from ourselves?
It's all looking strong and stable to me....
so we appear to have gone beyond omnishambles and clusterflip. We need a word to describe a situation worse than either of those? Any suggestions?
@dissonance Just another beautiful bits of double stnadards where the plebs can't be given the chance of demostrating they have changed their mind after three years and some real informantion; whereas Tory MPs should definitely get that chance after 3 and a half months despite rules explicitly forbidding it!
I can't see TM revoking A50, it's not been part of the behaviours displayed so far and she's not one to suddenly go off-piste. I can see yet another request for another extension, which will probably be a long one to account for the impending GE that no-one wants.
Mark Francois is going to have a stroke on national telly isn't he
May knows that a long extension means that if Brexit happens it won't be with her as PM. She'll be doing anything and everything to avoid that. That might may not be enough though.
tj,
fractally fscked
(fscked at every possible scale and resolution)
I reckon 2nd ref is the best that can be hoped for, which could easily lead to remain.
Like it eat the pudding.
I think she's got to take whatever the EU offer her. Most likely a long extension, take part in EU elections but have limited say over how EU is actually governed while we're still working out whether we're in or out. So basically our MEPs will get paid to turn up and do nothing - Farage is already outraged as that means he'll have to do more than he's done for the last few yars.
Maybe May is such a crisis junky she's realised that she has mainlined all the good stuff and the only thing left that can get her bombed is the reaction she'll get from pressing the gammon detonating "revoke" button?
fractally fscked
Fsck recursion.
In order to understand Brexit, you must first understand Brexit.
That's a niche joke, but I appreciated it.
Another wasted day?
Another wasted day?
Wouldn't want to change the format of the previous 3 years...
Mark Francois is going to have a stroke on national telly isn’t he
We can but hope.
God if he had a stroke on tv, at least the police with have evidence for the indecency charge
It's been a long game if the aim is all the ERG to pop on the same day
I think if we're looking for a progressive adjectives from cluster**** then I think "Brexit" sums it up nicely....it should enter the lexicon as meaning "the mother of all f-ups"
Anyone watching Dispatches on C4? First couple of folk interviewed run businesses (farmer and care home owner) that rely on foreign workers but they voted for Brexit and now wondering how they'll cope. Jesus wept.