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I saw my parents at the weekend and they are so firmly entrenched in no deal it’s rediculous. I even got “You lost, get over it!” shouted at me by my mother.
Noting against your parents per-se, but I’m fed up of angry gammons screaming to “just leave, get on with it, you lost etc”.
They could add... “the past 40+ year arrangement with the EU has made us disproportionately wealthy compared to our parents and our children’s generation. We bought our home for a tiny fraction of its current value, bar a few months more than 30 years ago we’ve enjoyed generally low interest rates (not that we won’t remind you every time about 15% base rates) and high levels of employment for most of our adult lives.
We now sit in, mortgage free in a home our children could only dream of owning, enjoying a comfortable life paid for by our final salary pensions, topped up by our triple locked state pension.
Now we’ve got too much time on our hands, thanks to an earlier retirement than either our parents or children will get and longest life expectancy in history (despite our love of cholesterol, Tobacco and alcohol) we’ve started to read the Daily Mail, cover to cover, every day. We no longer want to be governed by those ‘foreigners’ in the EU, they’re just the Elites, we want to be governed solely by the Former Bankers and Etonians in London who’ve told us are ‘of the people’. We know we’re just screwing our kids over again for our own sakes, just like we did when we sold all the utilities in the 80s for a quick buck, I told Sid! But we don’t care, because we’re the greedy selfish generation, we even made a film about it once - greed is good!”.
yep Juncker just confirmed what the preconditions for a trade deal will be under no deal sitiation 🙂
The problem is that the 'Just Leave with No Deal' crew simply dont care or listen to this
then get all outraged when it becomes reality
I think the positioning of a "No deal/WTO" response is potentially more of a protest vote.
The Brexiteers I've spoken to know they will be worse off but think it's a price worth paying for "freedom". It's difficult to explain how they are in all likelihood going to have less protection & less choice (which I equate to freedom) once the ERG et al have ripped up the EU rulebook which has protected their rights to date.
If you point out how the main protagonists of No deal themselves stand to make money out of it & why they should question their motivation. The answer is "So? I'm poor anyway & I'll be more poor after.....but there'll be fine" - which is just a bat sh1t crazy stance to take..
No, they don't care as long as 2 fingers are shoved up at the EU & current establishment not realising that they will be swapping one bunch of tossers for another & being poorer in the process. At least with the current crop you know where you stand.....I wouldn't trust ERG et al as far as I could throw them!
Then you hear "undemocratic" but when you explain that actually the EU is really no less democratic than our own country, the blank looks are all you need for confirmation that critical analysis has left the building.
Proclamations of WTO/No deal being acceptable are ridiculous - I've not read one report that says they are economically sound. Now if a Brexit option came up which was economically sound I'd listen to it, BUT they haven't - no-one has because there isn't one. From a pragmatic point of view I think we should be out BUT IF ONLY IT'S NOT AN ACT OF SELF HARM.
We (the UK) are in a rather unique position. We are a member of a club but we've cherry picked the best bits & avoided some of the more onerous. Now we want to leave that club, cherry pick the fattest wallets from the coats in the cloakroom on our way-out & not pay our bar bill. Then scweam that the Management is being a bully when they won't let us...........it's so childish & mired in self-entitlement it reeks..
It's fing crazy - these idiots want to take us all down with them....for what?!
What like a vote to review the final deal and accept if we still want to leave 😉
The Commonwealth nations are watching the UK very closely ... 🤔
What like a vote to review the final deal and accept if we still want to leave
Absolutely. I've said quite a few times that a second vote is not a bad idea as long as it can be demonstrated that there is public support for one.
dazh,
if the people demand it, then their leaders are duty bound to give them one
Who demanded it?
Some tories looking for to lance a boil and getting an amputation instead?
There was no demand.
Democracy in action? Or would you prefer dictatorship?
Looking at the way our democracy is presently 'functioninng', I'd take a dictatorship at the moment
To be honest, once whichever nutter replaces May tears up all the EU rules, we're no longer under the juristiction of the ECJ and we don't have a written constitution, that may well be pretty close to what we end up with anyway
dazh
Absolutely. I’ve said quite a few times that a second vote is not a bad idea as long as it can be demonstrated that there is public support for one.
Isn't it labour party policy?...........
as long as it can be demonstrated that there is public support for one.
Something like a million people on the streets and 7 million signing up online? Or something bigger?
as long as it can be demonstrated that there is public support for one
Nearly 2 million taking to the streets demonstrate that for you? Most votes in the indicative process etc.
demonstrated that there is public support for one.
So a vote on whether to have a vote?
Who demanded it?
Cameron stood on a manifesto offering an in/out referendum. For some daft reason the people voted him in! Doesn't really matter why he offered it, if the people didn't want it they would have voted for someone else.
On the contrary, it demonstrates that however stupid an idea it is, if the people demand it, then their leaders are duty bound to give them one
I don't recall it being demanded. Maybe I wasn't in that day.
Cameron stood on a manifesto offering an in/out referendum. For some daft reason the people voted him in! Doesn’t really matter why he offered it, if the people didn’t want it they would have voted for someone else.
That's Theresa May levels of logic. Plenty voted for him despite him offering an in/out referendum, plenty voted Tory because they vote Tory. I'll bet a tiny minority voted Tory because they actively wanted a referendum
if the people didn’t want it they would have voted for someone else.
So people were voting for that and not for 8 billion for the NHS?
In the same manifesto they also said they were committed to staying in the Single Market (amongst many other things).
Nearly 2 million taking to the streets demonstrate that for you? Most votes in the indicative process etc.
You seem to be assuming that I'm against a public vote. I'm not. I have concerns that it will cause more problems than it will resolve, which is why it shouldn't be imposed against what the people want. The march and petition are good indicators that this support exists. An election with labour standing on a manifesto to give a 2nd vote would be a better option, but if an election is not possible a 2nd vote is the next best option.
P-jay and mrlebowski, sounds like you’ve been hanging around my neighbourhood?! We live in is one of the ex mining areas where almost 75% of those that voted wanted to leave. I guess you could say there’s a lot of ignorance about ‘round here - see loads of people buying the Mail in the local shop....and the poppy mafia is strong all year round. I’m still waiting for even a vaguely coherent explanation of sovereignty 😁
dazh,
Cameron stood on a manifesto offering an in/out referendum. For some daft reason the people voted him in! Doesn’t really matter why he offered it, if the people didn’t want it they would have voted for someone else.
Fractal pish. It wasn't in the top 5 (or maybe 10) things people were actually concerned about, and it was only offered to lance the ukip boil.
That comment is on a level with "80% of people voted for brexit supporting parties", and it demonstrates the problem with hoping that a general election will sort this out.
I think the main problem with a confirmatory vote/2nd ref. is the bias of the mainstream media in this country, and let’s face it, that ain’t going to change under the current government. No one seems to have the balls to call out the press barons whose agenda seems to be to get the country out of the EU to continue their tax avoidance.
“80% of people voted for brexit supporting parties”,
that quote is a dangerous one for Labour
it reminds millions of voters not to vote labour again as it will be used against them by brexiters
https://twitter.com/EveryCountry/status/1113010503998210048?s=19
Taking back control of our finances.
dazh
An election with labour standing on a manifesto to give a 2nd vote would be a better option
It would be non specific, Keir would say it, Jeremy would obfuscate it, and only you would believe it.
Thats where we are now.
It wasn’t in the top 5 (or maybe 10) things people were actually concerned about, and it was only offered to lance the ukip boil.
Don't be daft, it wildly popular with tory voters. Even if it wasn't, are you suggesting that political parties should be able to cherry pick their manifestos when they win an election? I mean I know they do, but they shouldn't, and they are rightly criticised for it. Remember what happened to the libdems when they experimented with this practice?
Anyone see Yvette Cooper on the news last night (channel 4 I think)? Did make me think, can someone please just get rid of May and Corbyn and put Yvette Copper in charge - She seems sharp, reasoned and quick thinking....like a ‘proper adult’, I reckon she’d make a good PM.
Well she's been doing a damn site better job of being leader of the opposition than the muppet presently tasked with the job.
She constantly holds May to account when beardy can't be bothered too
Cameron stood on a manifesto offering an in/out referendum. For some daft reason the people voted him in!
I’ll bet a tiny minority voted Tory because they actively wanted a referendum
I'd be willing to bet that it was a tiny minority that actively read that manifesto.
Most people vote based on popular opinion amongst their social circles, and the snippets of info they pick up from the media.
That's before you even consider tactical voting.
“80% of people voted for brexit supporting parties”,
that quote is a dangerous one for Labour
it reminds millions of voters not to vote labour again as it will be used against them by brexiters
As a lifetime Labour supporter, I already feel quite strongly against voting for them in future based on this alone. It's disingenuous in the extreme.
dazh,
It became an issue because cameron made it one.
It wasn't the primary issue people voted on (certainly not a majority of voters).
The point I'm making is less about how we got here, and more about your insistence that voting labour in a general election would get us out of it.
Labour have played both sides for months (years?) to try and keep both remainers and leavers onside for them (or maybe just keep their leader onside?).
You seem to think that they would explicitly select a side for a general election manifesto.
I don't, and I wouldn't believe them if they said they had.
I agree we've been here before with the lib dems, but you are very mistaken if you think that that was more significant than what labour has done in the recent months.
The lib dems sold some policies to get a referendum on proportional representation. Labour have sold and resold any political capital they had for what?
They reinterpret their "policy" on a minute by minute basis to suit the perceived audience. Its not a good look and its pretty transparent.
They want to ride this wave of pish into downing street, but I hope it throws them on the rocks along with the tories.
Can someone please get rid of May and Corbyn?
It would appear the Paras are already training for such a scenario.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/03/video-british-troops-firing-jeremy-corbyn-poster
You seem to think that they would explicitly select a side for a general election manifesto.
You've misunderstood then. It's true that labour have been playing both sides for the simple reason that their core voters are spread across both sides, and in particular have many staunchly leave supporting constituencies. They're pitching themselves as the unity/compromise party via the vehicle of a soft brexit, and perhaps a confirmatory vote. That seems like the right approach to me as coming down solidly on one side or the other will basically be electoral suicide.
They reinterpret their “policy” on a minute by minute basis to suit the perceived audience.
Their policy has been set in stone since September and they haven't deviated from it one iota. The main group of people reinterpreting it are those who want others to be confused about it.
As a lifetime Labour supporter, I already feel quite strongly against voting for them in future based on this alone.
Who else are you going to vote for? A vote for anyone other than labour in seats where labour are the primary opposition to the tories is basically just increasing the chances of the tories remaining in power. How does that help your anti-brexit position?
if the people demand it, then their leaders are duty bound to give them one
Cameron gave in to the head banging nutters on the back benches to “finally put the EU question to bed once and for all.”
He also said he’d stick around to enact the result of the referendum.
How did all that work out for him?
dazh
coming down solidly on one side or the other will basically be electoral suicide
Hows that working out in the polls these days?
Not coming down "on one side or the other" on the biggest political question of the era (in the UK) may not be the best look for a political party.
Just sayin'
put Yvette Copper in charge
hhhmmm ... 🤔 ... 🤣
Who else are you going to vote for? A vote for anyone other than labour in seats where labour are the primary opposition to the tories is basically just increasing the chances of the tories remaining in power. How does that help your anti-brexit position?
Depends if your mp is Kate get us out of here, vote for the most remain on the list.
Hows that working out in the polls these days?
Do you deny the difficulty that labour face? Do you really think alienating one half of their potential voter base is a good idea? Back in 2016 Corbyn's critics said he would never win with high minded principles and needed to be pragmatic. Now they say he should take a purist principled view of brexit irrespective of whether it damages his election chances. It's very strange.
Back in 2016 Corbyn’s critics said he would never win with high minded principles and needed to be pragmatic. Now they say he should take a purist principled view of brexit irrespective of whether it damages his election chances. It’s very strange.
It's almost as if things have changed in the last 2 1/2 years.
They will know the polling on leave voting places, also remember it's not half the population who voted leave. There was data they a lot of the leave areas had a chunk of non Labour leavers.
By ambling along he risks losing the half that want remain. He has already lost a chunk of the middle classes for other reasons.
By ambling along he risks losing the half that want remain.
That ship has already sailed
Don’t be daft, it wildly popular with tory voters.
That's not the question. The question is how many of those Tory votes voted Tory because of this promise, or perhaps how many would not have voted Tory if this promise was not in the manifesto?
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/12/11/1544504400000/The-only-Brexit-chart-you-need-to-see/
According to IPSOS/Mori graph in this link the EU relationship was quite a long way down the list of what folks were bothered about before the referendum.
There was no great public campaign for a referendum - it was entirely down to Cameron trying to kill off the issues within the conservatives once and for all.
And as R4 have just highlighted the local elections are coming up, forget the eu elections she can't survive a beating in the local elections.
There was no great public campaign for a referendum – it was entirely down to Cameron trying to kill off the issues within the conservatives once and for all.
You miss the point. I agree with the above statement, but it doesn't change the fact that the voters put in power a party with a promise in their manifesto to hold the referendum. Once that happened it had to be held because once you get into the position of second guessing the voters and cherry picking manifesto commitments we might as well not bother having elections.
cherry picking manifesto commitments
Now you're just being daft - they do this all the time.
Once that happened it had to be held because once you get into the position of second guessing the voters and cherry picking manifesto commitments we might as well not bother having elections.
You are aware of the standing jokes that party manifestos are dont you? Usually that it's the first thing to be shredded after the victory party or its the new one is just all the stuff they didn't do from last time.
Though I'm sure you can list all the policies from the last one you read end to end.
Do you deny the difficulty that labour face? Do you really think alienating one half of their potential voter base is a good idea?
So, if its half the potential voter base, what about the other half?
How does that help your anti-brexit position?
Oh I don't know....how did voting UKIP help Brexit? Oh yeah - it forced the Tories further towards Brexiteerism.
they do this all the time.
I already addressed this earlier. To repeat, yes they do, but they shouldn't and are rightly criticised for it. Manifesto promises come in different shapes and sizes. Something on the scale of EU membership is not something any party could easily ignore or refuse to honour for obvious reasons.