If the net $$ benefit to both areas is about the same then of course it’s going to be a higher percentage to the bigger than the smaller one.
Well, I've reread this, and I'm not sure it makes sense.
relative size doesn’t have a huge impact on the outcome
Good luck with China & USA.
We are saved.
The Express is giving away blue passport holders to its readers.
Made in the UK apparently too.
Thank God this hasn't all been a colossal waste of time then. I despair.
Just repeating for Mefty to reread.
Why do I need to reread it, it is blindingly obvious, but it is not germane to the point I was making.
I should have said EU economy is less than 20% on an PPP basis, slightly above on a nominal basis but still less than a quarter.
Well, I’ve reread this, and I’m not sure it makes sense.
So having told me to reread it, then saying it makes sense, you are now saying it doesn't. To be fair, you are right it doesn't, but I always read it as I think it was meant, i.e. the other way round and my comments should be read in that context.
Yeah, we got the meaning, despite it saying the opposite of what was meant.
and the lack of tax (VAT is also payable of course) is down to the fact that neither block dares to screw up trade.
Sqirelking - you'll note I say "VAT is also payable", so "lack" in this case clearly means low rather than no.
I paid less than 5% because that's the rate on parts and who'd send a complete bike when sending parts is so much cheaper. The last guitar I ordered from the US came in two boxes too. One for the neck and one for the body. 🙂
Anyhow 5% is SFA and entirely compatible with "lack of tax".
#Edfact
We did that on the last page mooman
And yes Brexit is soooo stupid, even Uri can see it's an idiotic idea!!
Oh lord.....now I'm really conflicted.
I didn't want brexit because I think close co-operation is the way
But then there was a rererendum and the result was to leave and I respected that even if I didn't like it
But then the plan to leave and the delivery of the things we were promised / predictions of what will happen have swung me back to anti-
BUT URI CHUFFIN' GELLER !!
Get us out. Whatever the costs, I can't have that knob taking credit for it.
He also claimed he is using the power of his mind to ensure that “Jeremy Corbyn never gets the keys to Number 10 Downing Street”.
“I will ensure that they bend out of all proportion to ensure that he never takes up residence there,” he wrote.
Magic Grandpa has beaten him to that I think. It's like me claiming the power of my mind is going to make it dark after the sun goes down.
4 million signatures .
Amazing!
Whatever the costs, I can’t have that knob taking credit for it.
That's the funniest thing, if we were to stay, Geller would just be certain he'd done it by the power of the mind!
Fortunately we can just chuckle at him.
On the other hand David Icke thinks the EU is the lizards or whatever, and scarily there's a lot of brexiter/yellow vests into their bonkers contrail/antivax/Illuminati conspiracy theories.
https://www.davidicke.com/article/527304/birth-dictatorship-brexit-betrayal
Could we settle Brexit with some sort of psychic telekinetic smackdown between Icke & Geller?
Considering how stupid the whole farce has been from day1, it wouldn't seem inappropriate.
Ok, so I have a really bizarre one here: I have a friend who’s somewhere to the left of Corbyn who’s just posted a link to the leave without a deal petition. I asked him why. I know he won’t answer, so I’m asking you lot. Why would an otherwise fairly intelligent and well educated person in their mid 30s who hates the right wing more than Marx vote for something that at this stage would so clearly benefit only the insanely rich, and perhaps the insane?
I can understand his original reasoning for voting leave (to a point), but seeing how it’s all panning out I’m beyond perplexed.
To stop forriners from stealing our jobs. Keep Britain’s businesses British, I assume?
Nope, definitely not furriners. Probably a level of anti-globalisation to it, but look who wins if we do crash out 🤦🏼♂️
So far all I’ve had back is “it’s what people voted for”
Anyhow 5% is SFA and entirely compatible with “lack of tax”.
No, it's really not. It's still a tax regardless of how you wish to spin it but the subject matter was regarding bicycles which are charged at 14%. Of course it must be wonderful to declare 5% of the value of anything to be SFA, if only everyone would just stop being so lazy so they could have as much free cash as you.
Twunt.
So the letter
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47675252
From PM to MP's
If the House does not agree the Withdrawal Agreement next week, the Council agreed the date of our departure will be extended to 12 April. At this point, we would either leave with no deal or "indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council" - but that if this involved a further extension it would mean participation in the European Parliamentary elections. As I have said previously, I strongly believe that it would be wrong to ask people in the UK to participate in these elections three years after voting to leave the EU.
The Council's conclusions have been turned into a legal decision, which comes into force today. We will need to alter the date of our withdrawal in domestic legislation by Statutory Instrument, but the Decision sets the new date of our departure.
The Council's decisions mean we have a clear choice:
1. We can revoke Article 50 - but that would be to betray the result of the referendum.
2. We can leave with no deal on 12 April - but the House has previously said this is not something it will support.
3. If it appears that there is not sufficient support to bring the deal back next week, or the House rejects it again, we can ask for another extension before 12 April - but that will involve holding European Parliament elections.
4. If it appears that there is sufficient support and the Speaker permits it, we can bring the deal back next week and if it is approved we can leave on 22 May.
Finally I want to say something about my statement on Wednesday night, which a number of colleagues have raised concerns about. I expressed my frustration with our failure to take a decision, but I know that many of you are frustrated too. You have a difficult job to do and it was not my intention to make it any more difficult. People on all sides of the debate hold passionate views and I respect those differences. I would like to thank all of those colleagues that have supported the deal so far and also those that have taken the time to meet me to discuss their concerns.
I hope we can all agree that we are now at the moment of decision. If you would like to speak to me over the coming days as Parliament prepares to take momentous decisions, please contact my office.
Good to see her getting a barb into option 1 already.
News this morning is she won't even present MV3 as it's got no chance of passing - it's like being 3 games form the end of the season and looking at the goal difference column.
Ok, so I have a really bizarre one here: I have a friend who’s somewhere to the left of Corbyn who’s just posted a link to the leave without a deal petition. I asked him why. I know he won’t answer, so I’m asking you lot. Why would an otherwise fairly intelligent and well educated person in their mid 30s who hates the right wing more than Marx vote for something that at this stage would so clearly benefit only the insanely rich, and perhaps the insane?
It’s a good question, for which I do not have an answer. However, if we were to picture a Utopia, with redistribution of wealth, land,.. etc, with ‘From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs’... This cannot be done from within Europe. Unfortunately since we still get mainly Tory governments, it’s clear it would not happen even if UK were totally cut off from the rest of the World.
Good to see her getting a barb into option 1 already.
Betrayal… betrayal!
This cannot be done from within Europe.
There's no actual factual basis for that assertion though, is there?
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/brexit-go-slow-m4-m5-2677765
Oh dear what a shame never mind.
Ok, so I have a really bizarre one here: I have a friend who’s somewhere to the left of Corbyn who’s just posted a link to the leave without a deal petition. I asked him why. I know he won’t answer, so I’m asking you lot. Why would an otherwise fairly intelligent and well educated person in their mid 30s who hates the right wing more than Marx vote for something that at this stage would so clearly benefit only the insanely rich, and perhaps the insane?
For the far left to rise and build it's socialist utopia with exceptional tractor production it needs to come from the ashes of what went before, a lot of people would need to loose everything. The pain will have to make the socialist/communist approach look like a better option where we pool our rats rather than stockpile them for winter.
To a point this debate has shows that ideology trumps common sense and intelligence, give people a chance to grasp their idea future they miss the bit in the middle where people suffer to get there. It's all worth it to them.
I'd also add that I'm happy to dismiss those who will not give reasons of explanation for why they think this is a good idea, that is the key part of you want me to sign up to your plan sell it to me.
Just looking at Somerset Capital Management’s figures, found this graph
When was the referendum again?
For the far left to rise and build it’s socialist utopia with exceptional tractor production it needs to come from the ashes of what went before, a lot of people would need to loose everything. The pain will have to make the socialist/communist approach look like a better option where we pool our rats rather than stockpile them for winter.
I am not a ‘member’ of the far left, so I cannot speak for anyone else. But, my politics concur with a socialist view. There isn’t room in this thread to argue about the above and I’m not sure I’m capable. However, whilst many would need to give up a lot of what they have, I would argue many of those things do not assure a happy and meaningful life. Also, the vast majority of people can never have these things and our luxuries are dependent on the their ‘suffering’.
A different thread needed?
In my younger years I used to read and subscribe to Living Marxism … read up on how that transformed into LM and then Spiked, and how the staff went on to hide behind names like "the institute for ideas" … a perfect example of how a certain kind of left wing ideology can so seemlessly end up supporting the dangerous hard right ideas putting everything at risk. And our media still lap it up… it is genuinely concerning… and a reminder that just because someone is "left wing" does not mean they have well developed empathy or concern for the lives of "ordinary" people.
I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.
Possibly a different thread but orchestrating a massive collapse would be the way to get through policies as necessity rather than as a choice, it would be my conclusion as to why your friend wants a no deal brexit.
In order to get to a point we would need to break down concepts of ownership and capitalism based ideas like starting a business for you not the state.
Reading books on change like lean thinking where people try and go for big corporate cultural change it only really happens when the business is on it's knees, they make the big choices when the options are dire. You can make choices that are would have been really unpopular when the alternative is much worse.
Just looking at Somerset Capital Management’s figures, found this graph
https://twitter.com/snb19692/status/1106136228645212160?s=21
I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.
Pretty much same as me (although I am indifferent to EU rather than not liking it)
There are a couople of Lexiteers who drink in my local. Two nice blokes. I've spoke to them at great length and their attiudes to Brexit absolutely mystifies me
Both retired, both very left wing. They hate the Tories and the EU in equal measure. They seem to view them as both being the same. They are both capitalist clubs which use their power to surpress the rights of the workers. They share the Corbyn view that once free of the EU they can nationalise everythign and create a socialist utopia. They're both supporters of a hard No Deal/Leave means Leave Brexit
Also: theres an undercurrent of crude, flag-waving nationalism. Don't think that is exclusive domain of the right. It really isnt. If you travel far enough to either extreme, you meet yourself coming back
I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.
I don't like how Westminster is operating, and who is working for us there… in a vote more than 50% of voters could vote for "change" … but I'm not going to insist we tear up what we currently have and replace it either with "anything" or "nothing"… I want a clear plan to get behind. This how I see the position of people who "don't like the EU", but also don't think we should Leave now, seeing what we can see in front of us. A logical position, whether you consider yourself left or right wing (or neither).
However, whilst many would need to give up a lot of what they have, I would argue many of those things do not assure a happy and meaningful life.
Venezuelans and ex socialist utopias everywhere disagree.
Reading books on change like lean thinking where people try and go for big corporate cultural change it only really happens when the business is on it’s knees, they make the big choices when the options are dire. You can make choices that are would have been really unpopular when the alternative is much worse.
But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution - see Napoleon, Mao, Stalin etc. People who want drastic change overnight are either idiots or suffering from psychological splitting.
Venezuelans and ex socialist utopias everywhere disagree.
I thought the point was that your own personal wealth and position is only one aspect… what is happening for everyone else around you also matters. More equal societies are happier than those with absolute higher wealth that is concentrated and held by a small proportion of the population. A large drop, or even stagnation, always hurts those at the bottom most though.
But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution
Looking at history, it's normally a deepening of the problem, followed by the destruction of individual liberties. And then maybe a war to build up nationalised pride as a destraction.
—————
Anyway… the EU… helps us to be more prosperous as countries, increase our individual freedoms and rights, redistributes wealth (to regions)… it's down to OUR national governments to go further as regards using tax and spend to redistribute wealth for individuals, and the EU does not stop them.
But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution – see Napoleon, Mao, Stalin etc. People who want drastic change overnight are either idiots or suffering from psychological splitting.
Sorry forgot to add the blindingly obvious point on the end.
More equal societies at happier than those with absolute higher wealth that is concentrated and held by a small proportion of the population.
They are - but it wasn't a cheap shot, we aren't talking about Scandinavian countries are we? They didn't do equality overnight by making everyone so poor that they might vote far left did they?
Oh yes, that's right - they did gradual change within the the EU!
Ooops.
Lexiters are more intellectually bankrupt and deranged than ERG/Ukiper types.
And as the vote and march go on today
A good reminder
37% of the electorate voted for this, 27% of people if you include those who were not registered in some way.
The Petition is rolling along at 4.2 Million so far - that would be 4.2 million people who are 100% opposed to any kind of Brexit, that is a serious number for some MP's it starts to make a complete mockery of May's betrayal arguments.
Well at least he didn't blame immigration.
I quickly edited out the "cheap shot" comment @raybanwomble, as despite your slightly aggravating way of putting it, I agree with your point entirely.
To a point this debate has shows that ideology trumps common sense and intelligence
This is definitely it. He’s postgraduate qualified and works at a level you’d expect for reasonable career progression within the civil service, so he’s clearly not an idiot. Indeed, aside from the odd chunter about The Falklands (or Las Malvinas as he likes to call them) we usually agree on political topics. But when it comes to brexit he’s as abusive and unhinged as your average Daily Mail commenter.
Having said all that, he’s clearly an animal more equal than others when it comes to his communism hobby: his first home was an ex-council house (he didn’t see the irony in this), and his new 5-bedroom pad was mostly paid for by his in-laws.
Mind you, he also hates the English yet managed to marry an English wife and move there from Wales 10 years ago. So I guess “as I say, not as I do” runs quite strong 😂
I think I've picked my Sat night film, something way less bolloxed than our current situation 🙂
https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeoplesVoteMarch?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1109437890797469696
The March is off and a lot of people are there
The whole socialists are automatically Lexiters thing is a not particularly accurate in my experience. I spend a lot of time with people on the left of politics from the most centerist of social democrats to the real hardcore socialists and very few are pro-Brexit.
One of my most ardent socialist friends reserves his strongest criticisms for advocates of Brexit - using language that would even raise a few eyebrows on this thread and it's the only time you'll hear criticism of Corbyn!
There are a few dyed in the wool old Bennites who still see the EU as a free market fundamentalist construct but they are few and far between - even amongst leftwing academics.
If the polls are to be believed you could barely take a cross section of the electorate that is more anti-Brexit than Labour party membership.
If you cant make it to the march send an email.
https://email.number10.gov.uk/
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The whole socialists are automatically Lexiters thing
No one has said this at any point, have they? Every socialist I know is strongly anti Brexit. Those that are super pleased generally with Corbyn and the path he has the party on are the most vocally anti Brexit, including local councillors.
If the polls are to be believed you could barely take a cross section of the electorate that is more anti-Brexit than Labour party membership.
Yet the leadership, such as it is, refuses to acknowledge this. I see that Corbyn has organised a Labour Local Government event in Morcombe today* and hasn't even acknowledged the March in London. Says it all really
* I know this because my neighbour, a lifelong Labour member, and son of a Manchester Labour councillor, has just had a massive rant about it, and declared it the last straw, he's now leaving the labour party
I consider myself left or centre-left depending on if we are talking about my ideal situation or one that would actually stand a chance of getting votes in the UK. However I'm pro-EU because I think having a supra-national organisation to legislate on things like environmental standards is crucial. We will not make significant progress towards mitigating environmental impact as long as governments are tempted to slash regulation to increase profit or grab votes.
Le Petit Fromage tells 200 Leave means Leave marchers that they are in the majority! Honestly you couldn't make it up.
