So what would you do if Leave won again? Ask a third time?
Start applying for jobs out of the UK.
But anyway we know some can't work out why we can't just implement exactly what was promised and written on the bus. Off we go again let's get this one sorted out please, the true will of people is being shown and will be on the streets come Saturday.
So what would you do if Leave won again?
"Leave" won't be on the ballot. It would be May's deal, no deal or remain, IF it ended up a three-way. Given that the vote would have been on something very specific that can be discussed then you would have to respect the result. No matter how brainless. But the problem here is that you'd be giving a huge amount of power to people who have no experience of governing a country and very little understanding of the issues and how the fallout would affect the country.
Actually, never mind, we are already in that situation!
“Leave” won’t be on the ballot. It would be May’s deal, no deal or remain,
<\blockquote>
Exactly this time it would be a referendum on something tangible.
Tom Watson on LBC pushing hard for a Referendum on the WA. He's joining tomorrow's march.
To me the key justification for a second referendum and the point that nullifies the third / fourth etc argument is timing.
It has taken years from the referendum to this reach point where we are due to leave, in this time much has changed, we are more informed and people that were not old enough to vote then are now.
If we have a second referendum this fact of timing is almost completely removed, vote leave and we leave almost immediately, no argument for a third vote because yet more people will come of age as that wont be true. We have also gained about as much information as we realistically can though I agree lies and mis-information will exist it wont be to the same extent.
Nobody of sane mind could possibly argue that a second vote is undemocratic, it is purely the opinion of those that have 'won' that feel they may 'lose'.
If we do have a second referendum and the vote is leave / the deal then thats that, by even the smallest margin and it is implemented almost immediately, argument over, if the vote is remain I admit this will cause some degree of unrest and unhappines from leave voters but I see no other way out of this mess other than a public forum and there just isnt time for that.
Some of you are vastly overpaid for the jobs you do if you've got this much time to argue....
Go and do stove work....
So what would you do if Leave won again? Ask a third time?
If a new referendum resulted in the Withdrawal Agreement being accepted, we'd Leave and enter the transition period. Would there then need to be another referendum on what we're transitioning to? There might have to be one, if the politicians arrive at another impasse. Would there be one to rejoin the EU? I very much doubt it, but if the support for it was there… why not?
I imported my own bike from the USA without it touching any EU agreement.
Wrong, Rone, the person who sent you your bike from the US was able to do so because of the conditions negotiated with the EU:
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/tradehelp/
Some of you are vastly overpaid for the jobs you do if you’ve got this much time to argue….
Some of us are not measured by time 😉
But back OT
European Council President Mr Tusk said that until 12 April, "anything is possible" including a much longer delay or cancelling Brexit altogether.
Speaking in Brussels on Friday, he said he was "really happy" the 27 EU leaders had reached a unanimous decision to extend the two-year Article 50 process, under which the UK was due to leave the EU next Friday.
"It means that until 12 April, anything is possible: A deal, a long extension if the United Kingdom decided to rethink its strategy, or revoking Article 50, which is a prerogative of the UK government.
"The fate of Brexit is in the hands of our British friends. As the EU, we are prepared for the worst, but hope for the best. As you know, hope dies last."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47672136
He does have a fantastic sense of timing doesn't he, left everyone guessing and trying to work out what deal May had actually achieved on the extension and then dropping the big hint that basically get rid of May and we can talk properly 😉 And we can stay, nice to have those options laid out again isn't it.
the person who sent you your bike from the US was able to do so because of the conditions negotiated with the EU
Are you sure?
Tusk is awesome....
I think May is wrong but at the same time I still admire her tenacity to stick with a clear line that she fundamentally believes and that may not be her first choice. In a world where people so quickly resign and disappear off to a life of high paid talks and fat lunches it feels rare to have someone with conviction and a straightforward point of view. She clearly strongly believes that the only way forward is to implement the result of the referendum even though I had the impression that the referendum wasn't in any way binding
In contrast I haven't the slightest idea what Magic Grandad really wants out of this and that is a lot of the problem. With some real form of opposition we might not be here
She clearly strongly believes that the only way forward is to implement the result of the referendum even though I had the impression that the referendum wasn’t in any way binding
Clearly, that explains her utter reluctance to speak to anybody else about it!! She knows she is right be that a message from god or just a feeling she is on the right path. With all the questions raised she has never once thought maybe I'm not doing this right 🙂
the gymnastics are all from those who are trying to justify remaining. I realise that the vote to leave is an inconvenient truth, but truth it is.
Feel free to highlight what's inaccurate about anything I just said.
I can well imagine the reaction here if Remain had won narrowly, and Leavers were muttering darkly about advisory referendums and changing opinions. You’d be telling them to accept democracy and the result.
We discussed this on like page 2, and no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't support another referendum (because I don't support one now and didn't support the previous one) but that had happened if I genuinely believed that the mood of the country had changed then I'd accept that. I sure as shit wouldn't be demanding that democracy stops because I got the result I wanted three years ago, that's just wrong-headed.
You may well believe that this issue is so important that the ends justify any means necessary. So be honest about it.
Lets not confuse "what I want" with what we're able to do and the facts around that. I'm not talking about opinions here, mine or anyone else's.
What I want is for Theresa May to stand up in parliament, go "the entire thing is a cluster**** so we're calling it off," withdraw A50 then slope off to the Clarence with Farage for a pint of Snecklifter and a spot of horatio in the toilets. But I appreciate the likelihood of that happening is somewhere between "aliens landing" and "zombie invasion."
But I appreciate the likelihood of that happening is somewhere between “aliens landing” and “zombie invasion.”
That's good though as none of that is a video that I would want to see, even by accident
You know what's crazy
I don't even think this is peak Brexit...
https://twitter.com/SunApology/status/1109148637962162177?s=19
So what would you do if Leave won again? Ask a third time?
Well technically you mean fourth of course, but passing that by, if leave won a significant victory say 60%+ then I’d probably be considering my options emigration-wise. There ought to be somewhere that would have me that wouldn’t be about to go through the problems that will start if we leave. I have to think of my family you understand.
If it was another half and half vote like 2016, then probably stay and try and work on getting something better for Britain and it’s inhabitants than leaving.
Incidentally I think I said way back on this thread (late 2016ish) that leaving would be ok if we maintained the four freedoms. Subsidies for deprived areas and farmers (who had bothered generally voted out) could be sacrificed even though I would probably prefer not to.
So until the Brexies started acting like idiots I was willing to compromise. Not so much now, given their appalling behaviour.
I can well imagine the reaction here if Remain had won narrowly, and Leavers were muttering darkly about advisory referendums and changing opinions.
Of course, that's exactly what Farage said. It would be unfinished business. Well, guess what? It is unfinished business, just not the way round he imagined.
If there was another referendum it would have to be binding.
If Leave won, I would start applying for jobs in other countries and try to talk my wife into considering emigrating.
It would be a bigger wrench for my wife and kids than me, but I wouldn’t want to live in such a ridiculous country. I barely do now.
The Leavers would be welcome to it.
Tusk is awesome….
He is and most of the rest of the EU are managing to find the whole act to be some excellent tragi-comedy.
I've just noticed that on the BBC Brexit flowchart, "Cancel Brexit" is now an ending option, how long has that been there for? As it certainly wasn't there on the first couple of iterations.
So Anna Soubry is on channel 4 news explaining what many suspected - that the Maybots promise of indicative votes is just a con and doesn’t actually refer to WA, but later negotiations of a future trade agreements
Smoke and mirrors
She’s actually sticking to her guns in giving Parliament no meaningful input, and carrying on in the bunker, listening to no-one
What a surprise. She’s no longer even acting like a dictator, she’s acting like a monarch
"Winston Churchill's spoon on my Cadillac, which I asked you to touch". Euphemism shirley?
Well at least they are getting in early so first thing tomorrow one of her loyal more loyal colleagues will be getting asked what the plan is.
The real bit is if the deal is defeated I'm not sure it will be her making the decisions.
All other things aside, I'm absolutely astounded that with just over a week to go we haven't yet defined what we want, let alone made any inroads whatsoever into preparing for it.
Well, I say astounded, the entire thing was (project fear) entirely predictable, but I really hoped to be proven wrong.
and some placards for the march
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109170653188538370
Some great quotes out there from the Brexit Heroes
Are you sure?
Yes, everything the EU discusses on trade with the US it does in the name of all member states. In the absence of a formal trade deal which will perhaps one day appear the currrent trade conditions have evolved in what I'd describe a feudal manner between the EU and US. The result is remarkably free trade that the UK as an EU member depends on. The protection of EU consumers the EU sees fit also automatically applies to the UK and standards US companies have to meet are set by the EU.
If you can easily import a bicycle into the UK it's because there is a tacit agreement between the EU and US that there's nothing to stop you and the lack of tax (VAT is also payable of course) is down to the fact that neither block dares to screw up trade. The ease of trade is a reflection of the battle of equals in which neither side is sufficiently dominant to impose its will without suffering the consequences.
Some Brexiters claimed a fantastic new trade deal between the UK and US will be possible once the UK is free to negotiate its own deals. How the UK is going to do better than the current situation I have no idea. Currently trade is fantastically free in the vast majoity of sectors. Where there are constraints you'll often find it's in the interest of consumer health and safety. Sometimes it's straight protectionism and just occasionally it's petty tit for tat punitive tarifs because the Yanks are upset about something and decide to tax Camembert or whatever punitively. So far bicycles haven't suffered from the squabbling.
Anyhow the current conditions are thanks to the EU and good luck with whatever the US decide to accord the UK post Brexit. If it happens because it still hasn't, yet.
Three reasons a second referendum is sensible, imo:
1) Time: A significant amount of time has passed. Nearly 3 years. We vote on our government every 5 so it's not like the first referendum was yesterday. Circumstances change, opinions change, people change.
2) Clarity: The first ref was pretty much like the question "which is bigger, x or y" when no-one knew what x or y actually were (and as expected the result was very close to the statistical mean of flipping a coin (50:50). Today we know much, much more about what actually each option entails. When asked "which is bigger, 10 or 5" i'd expect a significantly less divided result.
3) Democracy: Baked into the very core of Democracy is the right to change ones mind. We hold GE's every 5 years, because situations change and people change their mind. Any new vote does not "Nullify" the previous one, all it does is to supersede it. As an eligible voter you and I have one vote each, to cast in the manner we see fit, free from coercion or outside influence, a vote that allows us to indicate what scenario best suits our particular circumstance at that particular moment in time. If there is a second referendum, your vote in that counts in EXACTLY the same manner and with EXACTLY the same weight (1 vote, 1 person) as it did when you voted 3 years ago. As an individual, that is your right, but that is your only right, ie you have no right of control, any mandate over the overall majority result, as that majority is simply a mathematical somethingion of every individual who votes.
So, in summary, i support a second referendum, in order to MAKE 100% SURE that the majority of people in our democracy still want to Leave the EU. And i'm all for having a more referendums on Europe in the future. Perhaps every 4 years we have one to ensure that we maintain our democratic right to change our minds? Or perhaps rather than a wholesale "IN or OUT" vote, we actually hold some meaningful discussion and get to some meaningful consensus around the various points of EU membership. Be that Immigration, subsidies, Tariffs or even the colour of our passports........
Brexit has always been an impossible circle to square once you scratch even slightly into the mechanics of how it might happen and the long term economic consequences.
Never mind the hubris, that's the cold reality.
That's been slowly coming to light over the last few years in the minds of skme.. Many of us have said all along there are far reaching consequences in regards to being supplicant to the USA, devestaing our industry, agriculture and healthcare in order to do a deal with them.
And that's just one trade arrangement with one country.
Doing business with the EU post brexit will see higher prices for imports and lower prices for exports...
Everything will make working people in the UK more poor.
Why can't people who want brexit see this? We'll totally have our pants pulled down by anyone we do business with. It's suicide.
If there is a second ref, it should be a choice of May's deal or revoke A50.
Personally I think it shouldn't need to come to that, and with the EU now still friendly but totally out of patience saying May's deal or 'eff off, (entirely justified) they might well be doing us a favour by forcing a choice.
Jump off the cliff or send a 3 line letter saying we will remain. The time for misplaced nationalistic pride is long over.
The time for pretending there is any other choice is now over.
Anyone who says differently is stupid, or a liar. This is the reality.
How the ****ing hell did we stoop to this?
But it is not too late.
Revoke A50. Don’t worry about any loss of face, we pay these plonkers in parliament enough as it is, they can do the explaining.
How the UK is going to do better than the current situation I have no idea.
The notion is that a corner shop can strike a better deal with its distributors than Tesco. Why is why everyone does their weekly shop at Dave's Mini-Mart.
The notion is that a corner shop can strike a better deal with its distributors than Tesco.
But it not like this, looking at the recent EU Japan trade deal is quite interesting. As the far bigger economy you would expect the EU to get far more benefit if this analogy was accurate but when you look at the communique, expected benefits to the EU are about USD 33 billion, whilst Japan expects about $29 bn, so the EU does better. However, as a percentage of GDP, the EU benefits are only about 1.5% of overall whereas the Japanese benefit to the tune of 5% of GDP - who would you rather be?
the EU benefits are only about 1.5% of overall whereas the Japanese benefit to the tune of 5% of GDP – who would you rather be?
Benefit for both, if the growth allows for collaboration over competition then it's a good deal. Wy do you think it's not a good deal?
Wy do you think it’s not a good deal?
We all know the answer to that one.
How the UK is going to do better than the current situation I have no idea.
It isn't.
who would you rather be?
No stong preference on the basis of the numbers you present, Mefty. The EU wins just slightly in balnace of payments terms so I'll go with the EU if pushed.
The predicted absolute numbers are so close it doesn't matter. And comparing percentages of GDP a pointless exercise. What really matters is that both sides benefit.
We all know the answer to that one.
Go on then
Uri it’s bending 😂😂😂
Happy to hear your answer Mefty, let us know what your analysis of the deal and the potential we The EU could have achieved from it.
Would be good to know if the UK car industry was counted in those figures, being out of that deal is certainly not been good for the UK in that respect.
and Japan is the 3rd biggest economy in terms of county, 4th if the EU is listed as one.
it'll be fine, we don't benefit from the EU in the slightest. What could possibly go wrong?
Happy to hear your answer Mefty
Well, its the wrong question, because there is nothing in my post that criticises it as a deal. The point I was drawing out was two markedly different sized economies can do a deal which benefits both in similar proportions - relative size doesn't have a huge impact on the outcome. The corner shop versus Tesco analogy suggests otherwise.
If you can easily import a bicycle into the UK it’s because there is a tacit agreement between the EU and US that there’s nothing to stop you and the lack of tax (VAT is also payable of course) is down to the fact that neither block dares to screw up trade.
Hmm, fact check time:
Since June 2006, the regular import duty rate on bicycles entering the European Union (EU) from outside Europe is 14%.
#edubollocks
And comparing percentages of GDP a pointless exercise
I hope to christ you weren't an economics teacher, thats almost as bad as your pants on head guidance counselling on the other thread.
#edubollocks
expected benefits to the EU are about USD 33 billion, whilst Japan expects about $29 bn, so the EU does better. However, as a percentage of GDP, the EU benefits are only about 1.5% of overall whereas the Japanese benefit to the tune of 5% of GDP – who would you rather be?
You do realise, don't you, that the EU is a bit bigger than Japan? EU GDP is somewhere between a quarter and a third of the WORLD's economy. If the net $$ benefit to both areas is about the same then of course it's going to be a higher percentage to the bigger than the smaller one.
You do realise, don’t you, that the EU is a bit bigger than Japan?
Which bit of
markedly different sized economies
suggested to you that I might not realise that?
By the way, the EU economy is less than 20% of the total world economy.
