one thing makes a referendum legally binding, an act of parliament coming into force if the result goes a particular way – nothing else
Not quite.
You're correct about the supermajority thing, far as I'm aware that's just made up based on other countries' systems. But in the UK nothing makes a referendum a legally binding one, there is no mechanism at all in English law for such a thing.
An act of parliament can enter the outcome of a referendum into statute (or some of it, or something else entirely) sure, but that doesn't magically mean that the referendum legally binding, it was still advisory.
Northwind - the way I read recent discussions is no agreement on accession to E.U. unless you are in a position of convergence. Has anybody been allowed to join without Euro membership in recent times?
Given the choice of two shit sandwiches, I voted for the one with less shit in it. Doesn't mean I want to eat it.
But you ticked the box that said "do you want a sandwich," why do you hate democracy?
The notion that loads people voted for leave parties so must have been in favour of leave is just propaganda.
But it does means that people who voted for the two main parties knew that Brexit was going to be implemented if their party was elected.
But it does means that people who voted for the two main parties knew that Brexit was going to be implemented if their party was elected.
#Speculation, many of us knew the situation we were heading to and wanted rid of the tories.
Just have a binding referendum, in or out, status quo is we”re leaving needs to be a super majority to change to remain… 45 vs 55% enough to convince?
But we are currently in, surely a super majority would be required to leave not remain.
But it does means that people who voted for the two main parties knew that Brexit was going to be implemented if their party was elected.
bobbins,
I, like millions of others voted for labour in the hope that their contructive ambiguity meant they were biding their time to stop the madness of brexit before it chucked us all off a cliff
manifesto pledges get dropped all tthe time the Tory manifesto also promised a death tax & a amigrant cap
no ones up in arms about 'democracy' because they have been ignored, its just the reality of politics
But it does means that people who voted for the two main parties knew that Brexit was going to be implemented if their party was elected.
Perhaps, but it was very much the lesser of two evils at the time. The alternative would have been to vote for a pro-remain candidate who in my constituency would've got about 12 votes.
The Tories gaining a load of seats in the GE would'be been a catastrophe - if they can spin the receiving of a kicking at the polling booths into "loads of people voted for pro-leave parties" then just imagine what would have happened if it had been a huge Tory victory.
An act of parliament can enter the outcome of a referendum into statute (or some of it, or something else entirely) sure, but that doesn’t magically mean that the referendum legally binding, it was still advisory.
No you can have post-legislative referendums which all the ones listed were, if they had been passed, the act of parliament would have automatically come into force.
And supermajorities are actually pretty rare throughout the world, minimum turnouts are common.
Most people will have voted AGAINST Corbyn or may rather than because a party was pro Brexit.
The Tories gaining a load of seats in the GE would’be been a catastrophe
I wholeheartedly agree but because May had read and believed all the guff about how hopeless Corbyn was on the STW thread (other media outlets are available) she thought that landslide Tory victory was in her grasp. A Tory victory,landslide or otherwise is always a bad thing.
Most people will have voted AGAINST Corbyn or may rather than because a party was pro Brexit.
In every UK general election more people have voted against the winners than for them.And then people wonder why governments are unpopular.
You can add me to the list of not wanting brexit but still voting labour in the last election..
Would be interesting if the petition gained over 18m signatures.... Parliament wouldn't have a choice other than seriously considering to revoke A50...
Sign it...!
Mefty - the scots referendum was binding
You should have used the AV vote as your example… it had legislation ready to go… and could have been in place ready for the next general election… whereas Scottish Independence could still have faltered after the referendum, once politicians had to get an actual settlement nailed down.
So that implies that having a third vote is undemocratic? That’s a leap.
Please feel free to point out where I said that.
Oh, please keep it honest.
I am. I stated a fact. Please refrain from accusations of lying unless you have evidence I have done so.
don’t recall seeing your other claims on the ballot paper either. What’s your point?
Fairly obviously, that the vote to leave would be delivered by the UK government and was not contingent on Cameron being prime minister. But you know that already.
You can add me to the list of not wanting brexit but still voting labour in the last election..
Me too. But then, I'm not complaining about them trying to do what they said they would do.
You should have used the AV vote as your example…
You mean that dead duck that Cameron managed to foist onto that great statesman Clegg in exchange for selling out on tuition fees and backing savage welfare cuts? Libdems had waited a lifetime for a chance at electoral reform and look what they got.Sweet FA.
But then, I’m not complaining about them trying to do what they said they would do.
and?? The rest of us ar engaging in the democratic process. It's as if people have very short memories as to how this works.
In case you have not noticed many MP's are having issues with what was in the manifesto from their parties too.
If you want Brexit that is up to you, many of us don't we will fight on until we can't that day has not come yet.
Sweet FA.
Yes, AV was a shit offering roundly rejected by the voters. But it was a binding referendum on a option ready to be implemented and fully documented. While being "binding", the Scottish referendum could still have resulted in the public stating their choice, but politicans reaching stalemate when seeking to deliver it.
As for manifestos … most of what was in both main party manifestos is still just wishful thinking, or has been actively rejected. Much of it will be long forgotten when the next general election manifestos are written up (especially if both parties have new leaders).
and?? The rest of us ar engaging in the democratic process. It’s as if people have very short memories as to how this works.
If you define engagement as "squabbling on a putatively cycling forum about ways to rescind democratic outcomes we don't like" then well done. Have a biscuit.
If you want Brexit that is up to you, many of us don’t we will fight on until we can’t that day has not come yet.
I suppose your barb may have been more effective had been aimed at anything I've ever said or believed. Is it any wonder that political discourse is so divisive given you'd rather attack a straw man than engage with people who aren't in total agreement with you?
I think mike is in the bargaining stage not sure if Cougar's still in denial.dazh and ransos clearly in acceptance 😉
If you define engagement as “squabbling on a putatively cycling forum about ways to rescind democratic outcomes we don’t like” then well done. Have a biscuit.
You must just be trolling now, yes?
If we have another referendum, or when we have the next general election, then people will espose what they want to happen, and incourage people to vote, in pubs and on forums. They shouldn't feel bound to vote for the Conservatives, and against EU membership… and nor should they give in to people who want them to shut up.
You must just be trolling now, yes?
I realize that trying to jolt people here out of their groupthink is a waste of time. Somewhere, there's a parallel thread for the no-deal brexiteers but I doubt you or they'll ever see that you're two sides of the same coin.
Fairly obviously, that the vote to leave would be delivered by the UK government and was not contingent on Cameron being prime minister. But you know that already.
Ah, I see where you going with that now. You've misunderstood my point.
Cameron said that he would honour the result and see it through. I'm not saying that because he stood down he takes the promise to see it through with him, rather that it was an example how how much water him promising anything actually held. If it's ok for him to welch on that promise and walk away, why is the other promise held as immutable?
Politicians change their minds and break promises all the time. Why is this one special? Spoiler, it isn't.
Politicians change their minds and break promises all the time. Why is this one special? Spoiler, it isn’t.
Yeah, you're right. Let's make Scotland independent right now.
You don't address a democratic deficit by ignoring the result of our most important democratic decision.
Let’s make Scotland independent right now.
And Yorkshire.
You don’t address a democratic deficit by ignoring the result of our most important democratic decision.
How about by holding a vote on the outcome of the process vote 1 triggered? Seems fairly reasonable to most people who now see quite how badly its going.
If the only reason for carrying on with brexit is to pay lip service to a notion of what some people think is absolute democracy then it should be canned right now.
We are still at the point where over 1000days in where nobody has managed to present a coherent plan to deliver any kind of brexit that does not damage the UK. Id like to see the analysis of the speeches made in Parliament as to who talked about policy and solutions vs mandate and will of the people.
Well Im on the email list for both University College Hospital & St Marks NHS Trust
between them they serve millions of people
Theyve both sent out emails saying that due to brexit shortages & stockpiling staff have to be very careful not to oversubscribe antibiotics as some stocks are nearly out
as a research lab weve struggled to get certain antibiotics for weeks now
If you think that opposing the 3 year old, out of date referendum thats caused this is a bad thing then fine, but I do not agree with you
ways to rescind democratic outcomes we don’t like”
You keep saying this. We keep telling you it's not true. And yet you keep saying it. Why?
No-one is trying to rescind anything. Aside from the fact that there's nothing to rescind, the referendum was three years ago, papping on about it like it was yesterday isn't helpful to either side any more. That ship hasn't just sailed, it's currently floating around Antarctica trying to establish whether the Earth is flat or not.
In 2016 we had a poll to ascertain whether the general public wished to leave the EU or remain in it. Wild and contradictory promises were made from all corners of the campaigns but in truth no-one on the planet knew what shape "leaving the EU" would look like back then.
The government then chose to act on this information by starting the process to leave (honouring / respecting the referendum). We prematurely ejaculated Article 50, and (eventually, when we couldn't find any other distractions) started the process of thrashing out what would be acceptable to both parliament and the EU27.
Three years on, we now know what the deal looks like. It's there in black and white, you can read it and everything. Is it what people expected? Is it what they wanted? Does it live up to the promises made three years ago? We have no idea.
Is it not then right and just to ask that question? This isn't "rescinding," disrespecting or ignoring the previous referendum, that result is what has got us to this point; it isn't "asking the same question until we get the result we want" because it's a different question; and it's a public vote so it'd require a really special twist of pseudo-logic to declare it undemocratic.
And to be clear - personally I don't want another referendum. I just can't quite believe the gordian knots some people are increasingly tying themselves into in order to attempt to justify not having one.
How about by holding a vote on the outcome of the process vote 1 triggered? Seems fairly reasonable to most people who now see quite how badly its going
Because that would be subject to exactly the same misinformation, manipulation and anger the first vote delivered.
Cougar - Traitor
Just saying like 🙂
Arguably finding democratic means to “rescind democratic outcomes we don’t like” is exactly what good quality democracy should be.
Let’s do it. 🙂
We discussed this years ago. You’ve had nearly three years to inform yourself
That hasn't stopped you repeating everything else daily as it? And getting nowhere.
Sorry I missed the brief.
I imported my own bike from the USA without it touching any EU agreement.
Because that would be subject to exactly the same misinformation, manipulation and anger the first vote delivered.
Or not... Many of the leave lies are out there already. What's that car companies won't dare leave, we will have gold plated trade deals, there is nothing to show from the last 3 years.
Or not… Many of the leave lies are out there already. What’s that car companies won’t dare leave, we will have gold plated trade deals, there is nothing to show from the last 3 years
Agencies would find nice new angles I'm sure.
In other news... notice how Boris has been keeping a low profile.
So what has he been doing at this time of national crisis that he helped dump us in?
Like the self-serving shyster he is, he’s been busy preparing his leadership bid
That’s just what we need now. Confirmation that during this entire shitstorm, all they care about is the Tory party. They literally couldn’t give a toss about any of us! When Boris said ‘**** business!’ he could just as easily apply that sentiment to everything and everybody
The latest Johnathan Pie piece sums it up perfectly. Very very sweary but absolutely on the money....
@rone so we shouldn't ask the question again and just rubber stamp a bad deal? That leaves parliament to revoke as the simple answer to the people not being able to decide.
And to be clear – personally I don’t want another referendum. I just can’t quite believe the gordian knots some people are increasingly tying themselves into in order to attempt to justify not having one.
This is the opposite of reality: the gymnastics are all from those who are trying to justify remaining. I realise that the vote to leave is an inconvenient truth, but truth it is.
I can well imagine the reaction here if Remain had won narrowly, and Leavers were muttering darkly about advisory referendums and changing opinions. You'd be telling them to accept democracy and the result.
You may well believe that this issue is so important that the ends justify any means necessary. So be honest about it.
I imported my own bike from the USA without it touching any EU agreement.
Well done. If you repeated that now, would the Brexit process have made it more or less expensive for you? How about a year from now? Remember… we're looking for ways Brexit is and will be making something better for people in the UK. Yes… still asking that question, sorry.
Arguably finding democratic means to “rescind democratic outcomes we don’t like” is exactly what good quality democracy should be.
Let’s do it. 🙂
So what would you do if Leave won again? Ask a third time?
the gymnastics are all from those who are trying to justify remaining
No gymnastics required for me. Leaving is a stupid idea, especially in the way we're attempting it. For many many reasons for remaining, no good reasons that I can see for leaving - well, maybe half a reason.
Remaining now would be justified because a) we've shown how hard it is to get a deal and b) we've totally ****ed up the chance we had.
