Remember the entire point of the DUP is keeping NornIrn part of the UK. They cannot ever vote for something that will take NornIrn out of the UK. It would be like the SNP voting against Scottish independence. It can't happen
It doesn't matter what bribes May throws at the DUP, if it threatens the union, then it fails. It fails because that's the only reason the DUP exists
The whole reason we have a parliament is to stop the person in charge from having their own way all the time. This is the foundation of the English then British state, and it's been pretty important in our history. Wars were fought over it. May's trying to bully Parliament, and it's right that Bercow stops her. She already had votes, the question she's supposed to be asking isn't 'how can I force this through?' but 'what do we actually want if not this?'
Anyway - I wonder if the Welsh will be a bit more open to immigrants now one of them has become the most successful Wales rugby coach in history with another grand slam?
Anyway – I wonder if the Welsh will be a bit more open to immigrants now one of them has become the most successful Wales rugby coach in history with another grand slam?
The UK has never had a problem with the right kind of immigrants 😉
It is all very well for Bercow to assert Parliament's power but to date Parliament has shown a complete inability to decide what it wants, it has simply voted down every option. It has hardly been deprived of the opportunity to vote for other options. All we have is greater instability which makes an accidental no deal exit more likely.
That said, if May manages to get the numbers to get her deal through, she is likely to be able to force a vote. Indeed, parliament has already implicitly voted for another vote for the May deal.
Parliament has shown a complete inability to decide what it wants, it has simply voted down every option. It has hardly been deprived of the opportunity to vote for other options.
No.
The government has shown a complete inability to decide what it wants, and hasn't presented any other credible options for parliament to vote on.
Parliament should have been discussing May's negotiating position and deciding what we should want. May should have been their delegate on something so momentous and undefined. Why should we only have May's private vision?
The government quite clearly wants May's deal, but it can't get the votes, there is no question what the government wants. Parliament has voted against:
May's deal
2nd referendum
Indicative votes
Customs Union
EEA
It is pretty difficult to see what it would vote for.
Parliament should have been discussing May’s negotiating position and deciding what we should want. May should have been their delegate on something so momentous and undefined. Why should we only have May’s private vision?
Because that is the nature of our system, and pretty much every democratic system, the executive runs the country subject to oversight by parliament.
That oversight needs to happen at an appropriate time… if you keep Parliament away from the whole process, and then, months late, present a completed agreement simply for acceptance or rejection… they might just reject. People have been saying this since before A50 was triggered. It should come as a surprise to no one.
Because that is the nature of our system, and pretty much every democratic system, the executive runs the country subject to oversight by parliament.
We didn't have any oversight for years until it was too late to do anything sensible about it. That's precisely what I'm complaining about. They wouldn't tell anyone what they were aiming to negotiate, remember?
I said why should we have May's private vision? She should have set all this out in public so we could talk about it.
I said why should we have May’s private vision? She should have set all this out in public so we could talk about it.
She has, there have been numerous speeches, urgent questions have been granted and there have been numerous appearances before select committees, Theresa May has spent many hours at the dispatch box.
The government quite clearly wants May’s deal
Does it?
Care to show your working, please? I've clearly missed something.
And all she said was 'we're negotiating a good deal' without telling anyone what she was going for. Don't you remember?
Don’t you remember?
I remember her saying that, but she has also said a lot more.
I’ve clearly missed something.
Probably the fact that back bench Tories are not members of the government.
She has, there have been numerous speeches, urgent questions have been granted and there have been numerous appearances before select committees, Theresa May has spent many hours at the dispatch box.
How much of May's deal has been shaped by parliamentry debate, would you say?
May has done her absolute best to avoid parliamentary scrutiny. She has been found in contempt of parliament at least once.
There has been do debate on what the WA should be. Its been a process of diktat not debate. Mays red lines ( not shared by much of her party let alone parliament) are the main thing that has shaped negotiations
There has been no attempt to form cross party consensus.
Had dinner last night with someone who we see a couple of times a year and someone who I genuinely love and respect.
Because of brexit and the shit that she came out with , that respect has gone. I had to sit there tight lipped as I really didn’t want to argue with her.
I accept that same shit coming out of my in-laws mouths because I know they are pricks. But not from that person.
Brexit has made her someone I really don’t want to see in a hurry.
Maybe I should just get over it but I can’t.
Maybe I should just get over it but I can’t.
Basically all my mates are Brexit. A product of our area.
Quietly challenge it but I wouldn't fall out with them in the same way I have Tory mates too.
Parliament has voted against:
May’s deal
2nd referendum
Indicative votes
Customs Union
EEAIt is pretty difficult to see what it would vote for.
Clever spin, they have not had a vote on each of those except May's deal that was meaningful and not mixed up in something else. The only way to test those is with indicative votes at this point.
She has, there have been numerous speeches, urgent questions have been granted and there have been numerous appearances before select committees, Theresa May has spent many hours at the dispatch box.
Which sums up entirely why we are here today, as the old business advice goes, 2 ears 1 mouth use in those proportions, well she has ignored that. She has made no attempt to work out what the public or parliament have an appetite for, ignored other parties and even her own. The result was always going to be obvious and now we see where we are.
Her final approach to simply bully parliament into reversing one of the heaviest defeats on a bill by attrition is thankfully stopped. If she cannot get a way beyond a long extension then she needs to be removed from the process, a Vote of No Confidence in the Government at 11:05pm in the 29th would be appropriate.
Maybe I should just get over it but I can’t.
I have one friend who is a staunch unionist, tory, brexiteer. We have just decided not to discuss politics as it makes us both angry. He is still my friend
There has been no attempt to form cross party consensus.
Thats fine in principle but how in practice would it work ? It's taken 3 years to get nowhere, cross party meetings on every line of some cobbled together "coalition" deal would have us 30yrs and counting. As far as May's deal goes, good or bad it's more or less exactly as I expected, certainly no suprises.
Thats fine in principle but how in practice would it work ?
First by listening and talking, a. Senior aide said that idea was pitched to may when she took office to which she politely declined.
Like many suggested pages back a cross party group to work on this from day 1 so that it could be owned by Parliament.
Regardless now I hope this is another nail in the coffin of brexit. The incompetence of the leavers should show enough what their future will be following them.
Taxi - easy and obvious. You set up a commission like the one that developed Holyrood. Staff it cross party, give it parameters to work with and they will come up with a solution that is best for all.
This is how it should have been doe. Cross party.
the cat joke has been doing the rounds for a while
Of course all of this is really Mays own fault, since it was her who p***ed away her majority with an ill judged, and appallingly fought snap election. Had she not done that we’d be in a very different place now...
Or the government could have laid out all the possible options/combinations that we could take to the EU and then vote on each one. Norway, Canada, with FoM, without FoM etc,.
The option that gets the most votes (and critically a majority) is the one that gets presented to EU for negotiation. This should have happened 2 years ago.
easy and obvious. You set up a commission like the one that developed Holyrood. Staff it cross party, give it parameters to work with and they will come up with a solution that is best for all.
100% agree that the mechanisms to do so are well established. But that would rely on a commitment to achieve the goal. Most of parliament doesn't want brexit, there're just conflicted by a sense of duty to respect the vote. There is no deal that would please parliment as a whole. Hence no commitment to work towards achieving one.
It is pretty difficult to see what it would vote for.
Indicative votes could've given us the answer but the government whipped against it.
There is no deal that would please parliment as a whole. Hence no commitment to work towards achieving one.
Well lets just get on and cancel it like the majority of the country seems to want.... or give in and ask the country. We can't turn the clock back, all of this advice was available at the start, many predicted it was going to go this way from the point where May set off with red lines incompatible with the EU.
There is no version of brexit that makes enough people happy to be worth it.
There is no deal that would please parliment as a whole.
There is no "deal" that would please the public "as a whole", or even half of us. So MPs are carrying out the representation aspect of their role pretty well.
It's time for MPs to work out what we should do now, without reference to the referendum beyond, "at one point in time people voted narrowly to leave the EU, in some form". What happens next should have the support of MPs and the public … to push something through now that only a minority want, because a majority wanted something a bit like it "a while back", would be odd.
It doesn’t matter what bribes May throws at the DUP, if it threatens the union, then it fails. It fails because that’s the only reason the DUP exists
But don't you think that the very lack of understanding of this simple premise perfectly illustrates the total ignorance of Nornirn politics (or Irish politics generally) shown on a daily basis by the Brexiteers?
We have a Northern Irish secretary who openly stated that she didn't realise voters voted along sectarian lines. I mean... seriously?! Have you been living in a ****ing cave for the last 40 years?!
Says it all really
The scary thing is that on this subject, and so many more, their ignorance seems wilful. Its like they're celebrating their insularity. We are being led down this road by political flat-earthers
but to date Parliament has shown a complete inability to decide what it wants
Parliament has out forward a variety of options as amendments, some of which have passed, but may be ignored by the government.
So how did the leader of the Labour party spend this monumental evening, that will effect Brexit and this countries future for generations, with 10 days left to go....
https://twitter.com/Jargent/status/1107917518428094464
Chilli sauce?
bet you wouldn't say "no!" to a free kebab 😉
Maybe JC isn’t so bad after all.......?? I could murder a kebab right now!
The irony is that as a teetotal vegetarian he will never have experienced the most joyous celebration of the kebab.... the drunken 3am donner with 'everything on mate' 😀
Looking for wealthy doners?
Seems reasonable that he kept that commitment … and falafels are just as tasty "with everything on" as doner.
I think JC may well have put his finger on the mood of the nation right now....
Perhaps put that to a referendum:
Would you
A: Like more Brexit shinanegans?
B: Like a Kebab (falafel in pita for veggies)?
I reckon 'B' might just edge it at the minute...
Seems reasonable that he kept that commitment
He'd already agreed to a meeting with the representatives of the other opposition parties and just didn't turn up in order to go to this kebab thing.
For the mezzee not the chew.
zippykona
For the mezzee not the chew.
End of thread.
From report of Corbyns speech at kebab awards last night -
He went on: “I was ridiculed for talking about falafels at the kebab awards. Hands up those who like a falafel?” As the crowd cheered, Corbyn noted: “Big swing towards falafels in the past two years …”
