Taxi - you are correct initially. EU law is already enshrined in uk law - we are mandated to do so.
The issue is that the whole Brexit concept is to free us from all this EU nanny state red tape apparently. The people pushing the agenda want deregulation and pure market capitalism. That basically means less rules and regulation for business, less workers rights and less quality control on imports.
We have taken a lot of these basic rights for granted - most only came into existence from the EU.
Food labellling, including contents/nutrition
Animal welfare rules
Workers rights
Minimum wage
Maximum working hours
Amazing protections we get as citizens thanks to the EU, but all just barriers to profit to the free market capitalists.
The Brexit sold to the population as “taking back control” is just a smokescreen to the real power and agenda.
There is no good news from this.
If Enola can go and get a " deal" from the septics regardless how shit it is the papers can hail Brexit a success.
We will take whatever deal we are offered.
Edit .unless we get David the rottweiler Davis to do the negotiations.
View from the US neoliberals (and, er, Daniel Hannan, of course) on 'The ideal US-UK free trade deal' on rules of origin:
It should ensure that the rules that determine whether products and services are originating (meaning that they come from one or more of the agreement’s parties) are not so restrictive that they limit the scope for supply chain innovations.
Because of course, we wouldn't want to limit the scope of innovations such as chlorinated chicken.
@taxi25 - yes the UK law may prohibit this for the time being. But it is abundantly clear that the US are going to hammer this and other similar points, under threat of demolishing us with tariffs, until we give in.
Thanks Cultsdave.
A good article by Johnathon Freedland in the Guardian last week
We now know the great prize of Brexit: becoming Trump’s prey
Its not just chlorinated chicken. One thing they'd absolutely insist on is that the NHS and other public services are opened up to private US providers.
Any trade deal will involve the US issuing its demands on a 'take it or leave it basis. There won't be any negotiation. We are about to get royally shafted!
Once we've isolated ourselves by leaving the EU we'll be desperate for a trade deal with the US. They're being quite open about the lower standards they want UK consumers to endure as the cost of allowing access to their markets. You only need to track which EU standards they oppose (on welfare, composition, intellectual property) to understand which we'll be expected to sacrifice.
The people pushing the agenda want deregulation and pure market capitalism. That basically means less rules and regulation for business, less workers rights and less quality control on imports.
True there are some pushing that agenda, but their not in the ascendancy IMHO.Even May is a remainer at heart and so is the majority of parliament, my optimist hat stays on for the time being.
Fox was on Marr today, he looked terrible, Marr gave him an easy time considering how badly the trade talks have gone.
It's obvious, especially to the likes of America & Japan that we'll be so desperate to strike deals that they will skewer us, they've not been shy about admitting it either. This is why Fox is looking so hollowed out in interviews.
Outside of the EU I'm resigned to rights & protections, being stripped away by successive parliaments in an effort to claw back the trade we are losing.
Sandwich
Kimbers, double isn’t even close. Have a look here for the first 6 Months of 2018.
Roughly 1500 deaths per year (source)
The U.K. has approximately 500 deaths each year from food poisoning Source - warning Daily Mail link, but looking at the source linked by Sandwich, the US actually has around 5000 deaths each year, the 1500 is only those from known pathogens.
I lived in South Africa while the case for Brexit was being argued over and it got virtually no coverage at all over there. They had enough of their own problems at the time.
The stuff that's been coming out since the vote is just staggering to hear. It's like watching some sort of a soap opera with the most unbelievable story line ever, and every week it gets worse.
It's looking like it's going to be the one of the biggest "scams" ever pulled off in the history of the world. I hope not, I hope it all works out . . . but its looking doubtful.
True there are some pushing that agenda, but their not in the ascendancy IMHO.
The US will force us to accept their lower standard goods, so that we can sell them our stuff, even if a government doesn't want lower standards.
May might be a remainer, but she's also a Tory and she needs trade deals as we all do, now we've just torn up all the ones we had.
Ahhh the distinctive call of the lesser spotted ‘reluctant brexiteer’....
First there was THM with the assurances of there being adults in the room who would mitigate the worst of the **** ups and deliver a Brexit so soft even the Andrex puppy would be hard pushed to notice. Proven to be incorrect.
Then along comes dazh with the aggro ‘it is ok to lash out at people in fury and sink yourself in the process angle’, but it must be allowed to happen or there’ll be burning cars in the streets.
Then taxi25 is having a go, a variation on the THM approach, less patronising, but also less detailed. Lots of unfounded hope.
But none of them actually want Brexit, oh no!
If Brexit has to be mitigated to such a point that it is ultimately meaningless (BRINO) then, why, for the love of god why bother at all?
Yep, and as has been previously said, once we lower food standards we won't be able to export food to the EU, the loss of a huge market for us.
The US will flood our market with substandard food and put our domestic farmers out of business.
The Americans aren't stupid, they'll have us by the balls and they know it.
And that's just food, also as previously mentioned it will be the death bell for the NHS too.
The Americans have already pretty much laid out the terms, and it's nothing but bad news for British citizens.
we won’t be able to export food to the EU, the loss of a huge market for us.
The US will flood our market with substandard food and put our domestic farmers out of business.
Obviously this is the most likely scenario.
also as previously mentioned it will be the death bell for the NHS too.
This as well. We might as well all give up then 🙄
This as well. We might as well all give up then
Well we *will* be giving it all up, that's the point I and several others are making!
Far from 'taking back control'.
We'll be 'free' to drive ourselves further towards 3rd world country status.
We'll just be another 'shithole' Country for the Americans to exploit.
But if British law requires them to they’ll have to do. At least if they want to export to the UK. Why do you think that can’t happen ? Parliment is and will be mostly remain regardless of whether or how we leave. If there’s a need for food labelling thats what we’ll get.
Well I get US bars via amazon uk and they have labelling of GM cos the eu say so, I don’t agree with GM so I don’t buy them any more, if we get a ‘deal’ with the US by Mr disgraced Fox the labelling regulation will be easily changed without having to have the annoying problem of getting this thru 27 partner states who are currently happy with the labelling.
Suddenly you can’t make an easy decision on whether you want to eat GM choc bars or not as it’s not on the labelling any more.
It’s not sky falling it’s just I like to know what I’m sticking in my gob.
The US will demand this as a price for getting a trade deal.
Ripping up all our trade deals overnight sort of puts us inbetween a rock and a hard place.
Old mog won’t even acknowledge that his favourite Brexit economist Patrick Milford says
just like coal and steel", manufacturing and farming would no longer make sense and would cease to operate."
And after seeing 3.5K jobs(probably 12k) just get blasted away in Swindon without a blink, I really don’t get the madness that is happening.
70 mps will vote against a second referendum! 30 will vote for Mays deal even idf not tied to a second referendum. corbyn / labour really are in as much of a mess as May and the tories
Just depends which 'news' you choose.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-second-referendum-labour-jeremy-corbyn-final-say-vote-leave-remain-survey-a8804931.html
Not the same thing. this is labour MPs that think either they should get on with leaving because of the manifesto commitment to " honour the referendum" or because they are scared of racists in their constituencies. Labour activists are pro remain by a huge majority, labour voters are across the country but these craven MPs fear leave voters in their constituencies
The U.K. has approximately 500 deaths each year from food poisoning Source – warning Daily Mail link, but looking at the source linked by Sandwich, the US actually has around 5000 deaths each year, the 1500 is only those from known pathogens.
At risk of being accused of something, is that per capita or just total number of deaths? Because it actually makes a big difference.
At risk of being accused of something, is that per capita or just total number of deaths? Because it actually makes a big difference
The figure is total deaths for both countries, the US death rate is just under double the U.K. rate. I looked it up for the same reason, as 1500 deaths actually implied a much lower death rate in the USA.
Having to give up British butter in favor of US-style "butter" will be quite a sacrifice.
- mystery white butter; apparently if you feed cows on corn in giant warehouses rather than grass in fields, the butter comes out white and mostly tasteless
- "butter!" mixed with canola oil. Not called a spread, but blatantly labelled as butter.
And don't even get me started on yogurt.
I like the US, and the US people, but when it comes to food, it seems to be quite hit-and-miss.
Oh, and food poisoning from chlorine-washed chicken? Yeah, that's definitely a thing.
One thing they’d absolutely insist on is that the NHS and other public services are opened up to private US providers.
Erm, that ship sailed a few years back, the US healthcare corps have been registered (or are buying companies in the UK that already are) for years now. They are though massively risk averse and things like GDPR scares the Willie's out of them. Watch for that sort of regulation to disappear, that's the signal.
Then along comes dazh with the aggro ‘it is ok to lash out at people in fury and sink yourself in the process angle’, but it must be allowed to happen or there’ll be burning cars in the streets.
WTF are you on about? I had hoped to stay out of this ridiculous thread after being labelled a nazi sympathiser for the suggestion that we should listen to why working class northern communities voted for brexit but alas it seems I have to come back to refute the same bollox as before. I get it dannyh, you don't like brexit, you think it should be unilaterally reversed on the grounds that the oiks simply can't grasp what might be in their own* best interests. The trouble with that is that this country only works because every now and again the oiks are given an opportunity to have their say. They'll put up with 40 years of crap wages, shit jobs, shit services and bugger all prospect of breaking out of that as long as they get their say every few years, or in this case in major policy decisions which will affect them. And when they get their say they expect it to be honoured. It's the fundamental principle on which this entire country is built, do you really want to mess with that?
*or rather yours
Not sure how that argument counters a second referendum now the deal (such as it is) is known. Everyone gets the opportunity to say "Yes, this is how I wanted it to turn out, let's do it!" but also with the choice to say "Hold on, this isn't what was promised! You elites are just trying to scam me and make my life even worse, screw that!"
They’ll put up with 40 years of crap wages, shit jobs, shit services and bugger all prospect of breaking out of that as long as they get their say every few years, or in this case in major policy decisions which will affect them. And when they get their say they expect it to be honoured. It’s the fundamental principle on which this entire country is built, do you really want to mess with that?
The flaw in this is that it's blindingly obvious that Brexit won't fix any of those grievances, infact make them worse!
A good article by Johnathon Freedland in the Guardian last week
We now know the great prize of Brexit: becoming Trump’s prey
Surely this isn't news. It was always blindingly obvious that if we left the EU we would come under the increased "influence" of the US. I've been blethering on for 3 years to anyone who'll listen that our "natural allies" are Europe and Scandinavia, not America. We need a strong and stable (oh God did I just say that?) Europe to stand up economically and politically to the US, Russia, China and increasingly India. This talk of "vassal state" the Brexiters bang on about if we remain in Europe is what's going to happen to us if we leave.
Surely this isn’t news.
You wouldn't think so, would you? But alas for the simplistic worldview of the terminally hard-of-thinking the Good 'ol US of A is as heroic and benevolent and just brilliant as the EU is evil and corrupt.
Rude awakening time on both counts is looming into view
The flaw in this is that it’s blindingly obvious that Brexit won’t fix any of those grievances, infact make them worse!
I agree, but try telling them that! It doesn't actually matter if they are wrong and we (yes, 'we', I am a hardened remainer despite what some people on here like to think) are right. As we all know though many of them didn't vote on economic grounds, but on emotional and entirely imaginary subjects such as race, culture, history and pride. The economic lies about brexit dividends and NHS money were simply convenient smoke screens to legitimise their baser instincts. In their heads the only thing that matters is that 'they' won the referendum and it's should be carried out. They'll put that above everything else, even if it makes them poorer, because to do otherwise is to admit defeat, and to admit that they were wrong. They're never going to do either of those things.
Surely this isn’t news.
Indeed. Some were warning about this 30 odd years ago... (sorry couldn't resist such an obvious opportunity to post an NMA track).
You wouldn’t think so, would you? But alas for the simplistic worldview of the terminally hard-of-thinking the Good ‘ol US of A is as heroic and benevolent and just brilliant as the EU is evil and corrupt.
Well I mean come on Mark Francois's Dad never had to fight any Americans on the beaches of Normandy 75 years ago so they are obviously the good guys!
we should listen to why working class northern communities voted for brexit
Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Stockport and Wirral voted remain.
The New Forest, Solihull, Hillingdon, Surrey Heath, Sevenoaks, Epping Forest, Crawley and Sutton voted leave.
There are massive problems with distribution of wealth and government spending that I do think contributed to the vote to leave but please don't pretend that it was all working class northerners who were taking a chance to lash out at a system that's failed them. There were millions of well-off (southern/northern) suburbanites who voted for it too. And then there's the question of why a working class person in Dumfries was much more likely to vote remain than a working class person 30 miles away in Carlisle.
There were millions of well-off (southern/northern) suburbanites who voted for it too.
Having lived the the New Forest for 20 years the reasons are more racist than anything else. The weren't voting in protest, because their lives were bad, because they believed the Leave campaign - they just don't like foreigners. That is what every 'debate' I have had comes down to.
Indeed. I think that most of us have had our perceptions a bit skewed over the last 20-30 years into thinking we live in an open-minded, tolerant and multicultural society
Well guess what? We don't!
Metropolitan pockets of it exist, but we now know that these are the exception, not the rule. Mainly it would appear this country is petty, spiteful, nasty, mean-spirited, small-minded, backward-gazing and, yes... racist!
I think that realisation has been the saddest thing to come out of this whole debacle, as it now seems to have been not only legitimised, but celebrated.
Depressing
Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Stockport and Wirral voted remain.
Funny because I know all those places extremely well, and they thing they have in common, with the possible exception of Stockport, is they have all undergone a massive transformation in the past 20 years which has gentrified the city centres, brought in lots of non-locals, and pushed the native working class population to the fringes.
Newcastle in particular would be just like Sunderland if it wasn't for the influx of professional, non-native population spawned by the economic regeneration of the city. That's a good thing of course, but don't pretend that's not the reason it's a remain voting area. I could take you to communities only a few miles outside all of these city centres where there are >90% leave voters. And somewhat coincidentally, they tend to be the run-down shitholes you see from train windows, usually with a burnt out flat-roofed pub and gangs of teenagers hanging around on street corners.
Well I mean come on Mark Francois’s Dad never had to fight any Americans on the beaches of Normandy 75 years ago so they are obviously the good guys!
Absolutely. That the tabloids will stoke the memories of the Germans in WW2 at any opportunity is one of the reasons that things are so bad now. Our unfortunate history with France (people still bring up 1066 FFS...) is another. Trying to convince people of anything when you have a thousand years of battles to forget is, ahem, fighting an uphill battle.
The Americans though, why would we not want to be closer aligned to our special friends and a former colony?*
* I am not serious about this by the way. I can think of many reasons.
Catch up Binners! You're talking about 2016… the UK has moved on… we just need to nudge the politicians into waking up to the fact… and start representing UK2019 not UK2016…
https://twitter.com/bobbyduffykings/status/1102484477933248512?s=21
and start representing UK2019 not UK2016…
From what I can see this is the only possible way they can justify a second referendum. Aside from the fact that there's no majority in parliament for one, it could be argued that evidence shows a significant changing of opinion in the past 3 years which means the brexit decision, along with the deal which implements it, needs to be ratified. It's still a bloody hard sell though, and comes with it's own unique problems. All a bit academic though as it's got as much chance of happening as Corbyn's red unicorn brexit.
Dazh - interesting perspectives up there. One of the few positives for me is having had my eyes opened to many issues I’ve never experienced. I was bought up working class in rural Norfolk, but with parents who wanted me to have opportunities. They got me into a Private school on 100% scholarship (my brother too) and we both went to uni.
Whilst my rural village was poor, it wasn’t anything like the inner city areas, as there was plenty of work in agriculture and local factories - where my dad worked.
Funny because I know all those places extremely well, and they thing they have in common, with the possible exception of Stockport, is they have all undergone a massive transformation in the past 20 years which has gentrified the city centres
Oh yeah, of course, I was more getting at the folks in Surrey or Hampshire that also voted leave because of what they read in the Daily Mail or heard from Geoffrey at the golf club. It wasn't all disaffected ex-miners with nowhere else to turn. and some of the working class northerners who did vote leave did it just because they want to "send all the muslims home" rather than because of any economic strife.
Like I said, there are big problems in terms of government attention, and therefore money. While I'd like brexit to not happen I worry that it would be a case of "phew, that was close" and then everything would carry on as before. But Brexit doesn't mean a redistribution of wealth of government investment, as you acknowledged above, if Brexit was a big "f*** you" to 'the establishment' then the people making the statement won't be helped by it. What I'd really like is a cancelled Brexit and a massive shift in government priorities. Build a Crossrail and a tube system in the West Midlands, pour government research funds into Newcastle the same as it goes into Oxford/Cambridge, move the houses of Parliament to Liverpool, the UK government to double any EU regional development funding that's been lost, etc etc. But none of that (cancelled brexit or change in government priorities) will happen.
Quick, let's bribe them into voting for the same brexit deal as everyone else. Don't whatever you do tell them there won't be £1.60 let alone £1.6million or £1.6billion after this thing is done.
laughable when the EUs regional development fund spent £13bn on the UKs poorest regions over the last 7 years
laughable when the EUs regional development fund spent £13bn on the UKs poorest regions over the last 7 years
Yep, but a lot of people thought the NHS was getting an extra £350m per week - and probably still do.
But....blue passports.