But these figures are exactly what many Brexiters wanted, so its hardly Project fear.
EU citizens(including us currently)= more rights,
Non-EU citizens(including us soon)= less rights.
There’s several ways of “honouring the result” without just blindly following the will of a statistically insignificant majority.
Actually it’s very definitely statistically significant; from memory the breakdown was akin the lines of:
17.6 million Leave
16.1 million Remain
12.9 million non votes
I totally agree with your point though, but what is ridiculous to me is for everyone across all parties and political beliefs (including the media) to repeat the mantra “will of the people”, when in fact it’s the will of 17.6 people or just over 1/3rd of those eligible to vote.
What is more tragic is that about 29 million people (otherwise known as the majority) are now being ignored. Their hopes, wishes, desires, fears and futures are being totally ignored. Astounding.
This is disenfranchisement at its biggest, in your face worst. For no politician to recognise that 29 million people or almost 2/3rds of the electorate are being swept under the carpet is utterly bizarre.
I include the 12.9 million non-voters in this because people rarely not vote for no reason or idleness. Whether we think those reasons are valid is largely irrelevant - reasons are reasons. I suspect, given the public unrest over austerity measures and crumbling public services, many people felt totally hacked off with the whole
Political process in this country (actually other countries too - Trump didn’t get in by happy chance) so didn’t want to engage, though it was interesting how big the turnout actually was, meaning there is very strong feelings over this from all sides.
I think that if push came to shove, even the disaster capitalists like JRM don't want to crash out because they need a drop in value to shove it all back into UK stocks but not one so big and messy that there's nothing worth investing in
So Farage will be leading (when he can be bothered to turn up - a bit like the European parliament, so don't hold your breath) a march that will follow a very similar route to the 1936 Jarrow March.
Only this time the participants will be marching to demand the right to be put out of work and into poverty rather than the more logical opposite.
As dear old David Coleman would have said:
"Quite remarkable".
Brexit - the gift that keeps on giving.
At least they'll be able to drop in and visit all the places that will be closing.
that 12.9m includes EU citizens (i.e. not a UK passport holder) who live and work in the UK and therefore pay taxes and vote in everything else, but were excluded from voting. can't find the specific number via google
Things getting crazier see
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/brexit-delay-could-leave-uk-open-to-legal-action-german-mps-told
So there is a remote possibility that we could get a public vote sooner than anticipated if the uk was forced into a vote as a result of an extension.
In that case perhaps the candidates could divide into remain and leave. Euro elections are pr if I remember in which case what do put down as second choice?
(I know it is party lists not policy that gets an mep elected but if one of the parties happened to make it policy then the vote could turn into a referendum?)
Even crazier Raab is not going to vote for the WA as a protest over the intransigence of the EU.
May has full confidence in Grayling and US (sic) has published the terms of our trade surrender.
So EU have given May much of what she asked for… but Raab and others don't want a key part of what she asked for (all UK Customs Backstop)… so Raab blames EU for agreeing to something May wanted, and they said they didn't want, because they are being intransigent.
The way USA, China, Japan, India etc have responded to our "efforts" to seek post Brexit trade deals must be worrying even those that believe in the likes of Fox & Co now… that needs to be at the centre of any campaign pushing to work with the EU when it comes to RoW trade deals, rather than alone (as member or "partner").
that 12.9m includes EU citizens (i.e. not a UK passport holder) who live and work in the UK and therefore pay taxes and vote in everything else
They only get to vote in local elections, not national ones.
But, dear god, do we have to hear the same not particularly good arguments being made again and again and again, posters on other subjects seemingly get banned for doing it, maybe we should start doing that on this one.
Well done for bringing this up again… EU citizens (not UK citizens, but living here) can't vote in a General Election… that does not mean they automatically can not vote in National Elections… as regards referendums… who can vote is decided for each referendum… choices were made for this one… by all mean argue why you think the right choices were made (at the time the advisory status of this referendum was one of the main arguments for not widening out the vote to more groups, you'd be wise to avoid that one now).
Oh, and… and this one still seems odd to me… an EU citizen living in Scotland could vote to keep Scotland in the UK (and so in the EU, protecting their own legal status) in one referendum, but in the subsequent one couldn't vote to keep the UK in the EU. Odd.
Should politicians bear this kind of thing in mind now? Argue away that they shouldn't… but those bringing it up again now at this late stage, as politicians have to make big decisions, are probably perfectly entitled to do so, no?
OK, they can't vote for MPS would have correct, but the point still stands they can't vote in all elections - not sure there is anything odd about a different approach being taken by a devolved administration, it is bound to happen. Plenty of our Scottish friends were furious they weren't getting a say in their nation's future.
that 12.9m includes EU citizens (i.e. not a UK passport holder) who live and work in the UK and therefore pay taxes and vote in everything else, but were excluded from voting. can’t find the specific number via google
According to google there were 46,500,001 eligible referendum voters and 33,551,983 actually voted. That leaves 12,948,018 people who were eligible to vote but did not. I would guess that a great many of those didn’t even realise they could vote.
Even so, it’s a huge number of people to ignore/forget and pretty stark when you consider the 16.1 million who wanted to remain.
It’s not a competition with winners and losers (though that’s how it’s being portrayed) & whatever the outcome we’ve all got to live here, so I just don’t get how a vast majority can be ignored by the the idiots in Parliament who essentially failed in their 1 responsibility in our version of democracy.
Breakdown of numbers are here
I think at this stage in the game, counting people who didn't or couldn't vote as people who "didn't vote for brexit" is somewhere between pointless and disingenuous. The referendum was three years ago nearly, the horse hasn't just bolted, it's somewhere in New Zealand having a bit of a gallop.
Aside from anything else, we don't know how those people would have voted. The ~quarter of the population who couldn't be bothered back then probably still don't care now, by and large, so their opinion is moot. The quarter who couldn't, who knows how they would have voted? I expect that the settled EU immigrants in the UK would have voted remain in large numbers and younger people are predominantly remain also, but really it's whataboutery and guesswork at best. The referendum happened, woulda coulda shoulda ain't gonna change that. I'm frankly sick to the back teeth of hearing "yes but referendum" from both quarters by now.
What I AM incandescently angry about however is the continual attempts by leavers - and the ominshambles that passes for parliament these days - not just to ignore "those who didn't vote for it" but those who actively voted against it. The idea that the votes of 17 million people must be obeyed at all costs (and my god, what costs) and yet the votes of another 16 million people must be totally ignored without further consideration. Every one of those votes are as important as the others irrespective of which way they voted. Where is our voice, where is our representation?
This isn't "democracy," it's an absolute ****ing travesty of democracy is what it is. The next person to tell me to "shut up and get over it" is going to get a punch in the cock.
The mainlanders that have become british I'm assuming now have a vote.
Do we know how many of them there are?
mickmcd
Member
she also took her petition to jezza and he turned her away
No she didn't and no he didn't. She took her petition to Labour hq, knowing in advance that they wouldn't accept it (they don't accept any petition deliveries in person). Just a silly stunt.
Or a cunning stunt?
Why can't politicians just act with virtue and in good faith rather than being manipulative misleading media whores?
What chance do voters have to vote in an ethically and morraly sound way when faced with this level of dishonesty?
That goes for all parties.
The way USA, China, Japan, India etc have responded to our “efforts” to seek post Brexit trade deals must be worrying even those that believe in the likes of Fox & Co
Maitlis destroyed him on newsnight earlier this week, he looked hollowed out.
To be fair on leave voters I don't think anyone guessed that the brexiteers would be this utterly incompetent.
My opinion of the likes of grayling, fox, mogg etc was about as low as you could get, but even I didn't imagine they'd be this clueless.
they don’t accept any petition deliveries in person
Actually, it was pre-agreed and pre-arranged, but then HQ changed their mind when they arrived at the time and date agreed. Delivering the petition in person was indeed a "stunt", but not being allowed in was a surprise (and perhaps also a "stunt", but not one intended by the MP). Anyway, they've chased her out. One of many MPs (of all parties) who'll be out of a job thanks to inparty fighting since the referendum was called.
Can anyone explain the Labour position? So Labour help May plan in exchange for second vote. But if May's plan passes, we leave the EU in 28 days and then have 2 more years of kicking can / sorting out the deal. A second vote won't be on May's final deal but on rejoining the EU.
Confused of Bristol.
Actually, it was pre-agreed and pre-arranged, but then HQ changed their mind when they arrived at the time and date agreed. Delivering the petition in person was indeed a “stunt”, but not being allowed in was a surprise (and perhaps also a “stunt”, but not one intended by the MP). Anyway, they’ve chased her out. One of many MPs (of all parties) who’ll be out of a job thanks to inparty fighting since the referendum was called.
Maybe I should have written the long version as opposed to sensationalising it for the jeb ends
kelvin
Actually, it was pre-agreed and pre-arranged, but then HQ changed their mind when they arrived at the time and date agreed.
As far as I've ever seen, the only person to claim this is Angela Smith. Meanwhile "we don't take petitions in person" has been Labour hq policy for years (and also Tory party policy), and they say that Smith was told this in advance.
As far as importing potentially kak food from the US is concerned, won't people just vote with their money?
Either the food will be exposed as rubbish, fail to sell and the venture will fold, or people will decide they love it, it will sell and the venture will succeed.
Isn't food labeled with country of origin?
Let the market decide? The only problem with that is the race to the bottom in an economically screwed UK that will put our producers out of business. Then the cheap choice becomes the only choice.
Can American chicken make kfc even shitter?
American beef a Big Mac even more disgusting?
Barry Brexit won’t care as long as he gets his fat fix.
The problem with the American food regs is that they allow lower hygiene & welfare for animals before slaughter + hormones etc then have to extra wash the carcass later. Whether it's due to farming practices or not America has a higher (double?) rate of food poisoning to the UK.
And who looks at the country of origin on food labels? If it's cheaper it sells, this would force UK farmers to also slash standards to compete or go bust, -& that would prevent us from selling to the EU, which is by far our biggest export market.
Cheers for the link sandwich, that's bonkers!
Isn’t country of origin labelling an EU rule? I’m sure we won’t need such red tape in our New Utopia.
Perhaps people should start reading the labels.....just a thought.
Shopping in the brave new world "Beyond The Wall" will be time consuming if we have to read the labels on all the food. Produce of USA should help with choices for those of us that can afford it, the poor buggers on income support will be screwed though.
spekkie
Member
Perhaps people should start reading the labels…..just a thought
Or perhaps we could try& ensure that all food brought into the country reaches at certain minimum safety standard?
Or perhaps we could try& ensure that all food brought into the country reaches at certain minimum safety standard?
Which is something that is much easier to do if you haven’t just torpedoed your own economy, dropped your trousers and are touching your toes......
This is well worth a listen
Isn’t country of origin labelling an EU rule? I’m sure we won’t need such red tape in our New Utopia.
exactly - nor will GM foods need to be labeled
Isn’t country of origin labelling an EU rule? I’m sure we won’t need such red tape in our New Utopia.
exactly – nor will GM foods need to be labeled
My guess is the legislation will be cut and pasted from EU into British legislation. Just like 99% of the rest. You guys just keep on looking at worst case scenarios with out any evidence thats what in fact will happen.
Yep the us confectioners don’t want to have to label gm or food coloring.
Trade deals are er easy.
You guys just keep on looking at worst case scenarios with out any evidence thats what in fact will happen.
Worst case doesn’t happen on day one thou it will be a gradual sneaking in of things over a period of time.
My guess is the legislation will be cut and pasted from EU into British legislation. Just like 99% of the rest. You guys just keep on looking at worst case scenarios with out any evidence thats what in fact will happen.
Typical brexiter, only thinking five minutes ahead. That legislation will be cut out once we attempt at getting trade deals with the likes of the US.
The US have made it clear this is the price for a trade deal.
Yep the us confectioners don’t want to have to label gm or food coloring.
But if British law requires them to they'll have to do. At least if they want to export to the UK. Why do you think that can't happen ? Parliment is and will be mostly remain regardless of whether or how we leave. If there's a need for food labelling thats what we'll get.
The US have made it clear this is the price for a trade deal
Which we've agreed to ? I must have missed the signing ceremony.
Typical brexiter
I'll say this again for the terminally dense. I'm a remainer, just not a hysterical "sky's falling" doom merchant which serves no purpose for me, my family or community.