Was remain, still remain.
I'd be interested to see if any leave voters think this is panning out the way they imagined it would.
If they are truly happy, I do despair.
The blue passports have swung it for me.
I now have UKIP 4 eva tattooed on my knuckles
&
29-3-19
30-6-19
Tattooed on the back of my neck
I’d be interested to see if any leave voters think this is panning out the way they imagined it would.
The few leavers I know well enough to talk to can't understand who we don't "just leave". The closest they get to trying to analyse the shit they voted for is along the lines of "the nasty Europeans are trying to make us suffer".
Firmly remain here.
Most of my colleagues are rabid leavers and it’s not possible to have any sort of discussion with the majority of them. They are mostly in favour of a hard Brexit and think anyone who voted remain is a pinko lefty Labour voter...
it had more of a feel of an arrogant gesture by Cameron to his more right wing colleagues and voters
I think it was more a plan to neutralise UKIP - and they still couldn't end up with a working majority.
The few leavers I know well enough to talk to can’t understand who we don’t “just leave”.
I've said this before but,
In 2016 I'd have understood this attitude. Almost three years on, anyone saying they don't understand why we can't "just leave" is a ****ing idiot. It's like being told that you're on a six month waiting list for an operation whilst surgeons, nurses, anaesthetists etc become available and standing in the doctor's office with a rusty penknife going "why can't you just cut it out?"
…actually change their vote given the chance?
I have heard a number of leavers say they would now vote remain (based on it being different than they thought). I have never heard any remain people saying they would now vote leave.
I would guess 500,00 leavers have changed their mind which combined with a few 100,00 leavers now being dead and a few 100,00 young people being able to vote this time it would probably be 52/48 the other way round.
Corbyn said other options to be explored first.
Not seen anything that said other options have to be explored first.
The few leavers I know well enough to talk to can’t understand who we don’t “just leave”. The closest they get to trying to analyse the shit they voted for is along the lines of “the nasty Europeans are trying to make us suffer”.
Yes this seems to be a depressing reality throughout the last 2 years. I can’t do better than Cougar’s analogy above.
What is disgusting (as always) is how the media have played upon this over the last few decades. Bonkers Brussels making all these laws...
The whole sovereignty issue confuses me too. People seemed to be brainwashed into believing our laws are made by unelected EU officials - nobody seems to have any idea of how laws are actually made. I’ve noticed that ECHR enacted by The HR Act is often cited as an example that is stifling security & all sorts... it was written by a Conservative MP.
As far as I can tell, most EU law is focussed around protecting our rights and freedoms. I’ve not yet come across anything that has disrupted my life for the worse. Has anyone, or is it just another load of claptrap that people spin out when trying to justify idiocy?
I'd take a punt it would still be leave.
People are angry at stuff, and even more frustrated than in 2016.
Who knows any longer - I can't believe anyone still votes for the Tories. Even more shocking. But they do.
I've heard a couple of remain voters say they would now vote leave beacuse "democracy". Gah, but it's their choice.
I’ve heard a couple of remain voters say they would now vote leave beacuse “democracy”. Gah, but it’s their choice.
That's just denying leave voters the right to change their mind.
Migration figures just in
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679
Non-EU up, EU down, net is pretty much flat
How will the brexiteers handle this. Will their pea brains finally realise leaving the EU will do nothing for net migration, and in actually fact it will increase the influx of the migrants they hate when they voted to leave because they thought the opposite would happen.
The whole sovereignty issue confuses me too. People seemed to be brainwashed into believing our laws are made by unelected EU officials –
Yep. Presumably because the laws are "made in Brussels" they imagine some unaccountable Belgian bloke churning them out. On top of that, to the leavers perceive the EU as an external 3rd party imposing law rather than an association of its member states.
Non-EU up, EU down, net is pretty much flat
I recall seeing figures like that last year.
most EU law is focussed around protecting our rights and freedoms. I’ve not yet come across anything that has disrupted my life for the worse. Has anyone,
No, because there isn't any. The EU regulations we've adopted into English law are as close to 100% as makes no odds laws we've either voted for or even proposed.
Migration figures just in
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679
Non-EU up, EU down, net is pretty much flat
... exactly as I predicted like two years ago. The decline of the pound's value means we're suddenly more attractive to immigration generally, the toxicity generated by brexit is turning off EU migration, there was only ever going to be one outcome. If we'd stuck "leaving the EU means more brown people" on the side of a bus remain would have won by a landslide.
On top of that, to the leavers perceive the EU as an external 3rd party imposing law rather than an association of its member states.
I think this is an important point and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more. There's a very "us vs them" mentality in certain quarters which neatly overlooks the fact that we are, in fact, an EU member and when we talk about "the EU" doing something that by definition means we've done it. We have the lion's share of MEPs in the EU parliament, only France (nominally) and Germany has more.
Ie, in a very real sense, we are the EU. Far from those pesky bureaucrats in Brussels telling us what to do, it's the other way around. The UK has been a primary driver of EU policy for decades, we should be championing that.
Yet we don’t mention it... straight bananas are a bigger headline ☹️
....actually change their vote given the chance?
I was staunch Remain
Then after a period of grieving, I would probably have settled myself as a reluctant democratic leaver, ie: that we had a vote and that result should be honoured.
But subsequently, having seen the shambolic nature of what the leaders of Leave want, and the harm it is doing / will continue to do, I'm even further on the Remain side than before.
(I realise I should probably punish myself for daring to weigh up subsequent information and revise my opinion like this. Traitor!!)
The decline of the pound’s value means we’re suddenly more attractive to immigration generally
Actually you would expect the opposite as the earnings available here are less in their local currency terms and therefore less attractive. That said the figures show a reduction in low skilled immigration and an increase in higher skilled immigration, which is a result many Brexiters would be happy about.
EDIT: Show is too strong, suggest would be more appropriate.
Given that the report was linked in the very post I replied to, if you expected the opposite then your expectations were demonstrably inaccurate.
I already knew what the figures said, the point is that one would expect a slide in the currency to reduce immigration, not maintain it or increase - so other factors are driving it. Indeed the article suggests the slide is responsible for some of the reduction in EU figures.
Madeleine Sumption, from the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford, said the data showed Britain was not as attractive to EU migrants as it was a couple of years ago.
"That may be because of Brexit-related political uncertainty, the falling value of the pound making UK wages less attractive, or simply the fact that job opportunities have improved in other EU countries," she said.
Actually you would expect the opposite as the earnings available here are less in their local currency terms and therefore less attractive.
That's taking a very narrow view of immigrants, as if they're all coming here with nothing, and sending "home" every spare penny they can earn. If you're selling up and moving to Britain, the money from your house sale, and your savings, will go further when you get here.
When discussing EU citizens moving here, you can't dismiss the idea that there are far bigger changes than currency movements at work as well, that I'd agreed with… the fact is we're treating them like shit, and our politicans are celebrating in that… not very welcoming.
all these MP's resigning because its not what they believe in
makes you wonder if they had got a vote in the local elections based on what people know now about them and their attitudes
our local one has been getting some proper flack for going independant , she also took her petition to jezza and he turned her away i suppose now she thinks hes a cock and voted with her own two little feet
i reckon theres very little credibility left in politics democratic vote or not
I don't doubt that there are several factors at play here, if there's one thing we've learned in the last three years it's that things in the real world are often way more complex than a yes / no tick box.
Point stands though. I'm no economist and my reasoning could well have been way off the mark, but my expectation was still proven correct even if my working out was wrong.
Still, project fear, eh?
A fall in EU workers wanting to come here means having to fill essential positions from elsewhere… so yeah, RoW migrants are the main source of that… so their figures have to go up… sound logic, economist or not.
A fall in EU workers wanting to come here means having to fill the positions from elsewhere
well we do have 1.56 million unemployed and a shedload more joining them soon. Maybe some employment schemes and a few training top ups to get them in the fighting british spirit (edit...do you really have to put a sarcastimojo for every post)
Still, project fear, eh?
But these figures are exactly what many Brexiters wanted, so its hardly Project fear.
i wonder if maybot is going to split the tories and a great big **** you to rees mogg.....have that
The idea that any person can fulfil any role is dangerous… if you need a specific role filled NOW, then you'll get the right person in, not just any person. A few "training schemes" might help in some industries, but the idea that we can fill all key roles with people born here and currently not working is just jingo bingo.
if you need a specific role filled NOW, then you’ll get the right person in, not just any person
oh how they would laugh down the job centre
But these figures are exactly what many Brexiters wanted, so its hardly Project fear.
The only "brexiter" likely to have voted to leave the EU because they wanted to see a sharp increase in non-EU immigration to the UK will be those who have non-EU families looking to come here. And they're not the ones doing all the shouting.
Why not pop along to Leave.EU's Facebook page, tell them how great you think it's going to be that post-Brexit we're likely to see a huge upsurge in immigration from predominantly Muslim countries, see how many people agree with you.
I was staunch Remain
Then after a period of grieving, I would probably have settled myself as a reluctant democratic leaver, ie: that we had a vote and that result should be honoured.
But subsequently, having seen the shambolic nature of what the leaders of Leave want, and the harm it is doing / will continue to do, I’m even further on the Remain side than before.
(I realise I should probably punish myself for daring to weigh up subsequent information and revise my opinion like this. Traitor!!)
I'm in a similar boat, if there's a Ref2 and if we end up remaining the like of the ERG and Farage will be shouting from the rooftops that Brexit was sabotaged, the EU turned up 'Project Fear' to 11 and at the last possible moment, the EU stole Brexit, there will no doubt be calls for a 'best of 3'.
But in truth, it's those guys who ****ed it, truthfully, if, as they said so many times before the vote they'd accepted freedom of movement (with caveats around new EU states), remaining in the single market and customs union, then it would have probably passed.
I mean for remainers it's would have been a bitter pill to swallow and frankly the worst of both worlds, but for a lot of leavers it fulfilled the whole blue passports / not being under 'control' of the EU parliament etc. The damage to the economy would be workable.
If you were hell-bent on breaking up the EU, you would be a huge step closer, once you're out on a stable platform you have all the time in the world to thrash out the UKs new place in the world.
They didn't want that though did they, they wanted a complete, and full break, the exact opposite of what they'd been saying (publicly at lease) for years.
Have many people changed their mind? Well yes, quite a few, if recent polls are to be believed, although the grim reaper is a big help to Remain - he's taken out nearly a million Leave voters since Ref1, where as around the same number of Remain voters are now old enough to vote. Other factors could make a meaningful difference too - hold an election in a cold/wet month and you'll get a lower turn out, especially when it comes to older voters. It's knife edge stuff.
I would probably have settled myself as a reluctant democratic leaver, ie: that we had a vote and that result should be honoured.
Leaving aside the question of whether the result deserves to be honoured at all given that if it were mandatory it would've almost certainly been ruled illegal in the court case a couple of weeks ago, and also the fact that democracy and mob rule are not synonyms,
This is another leave propaganda masterstroke, that so many people think this. There's several ways of "honouring the result" without just blindly following the will of a statistically insignificant majority.
If we've spent three years spunking money up the wall just to conclude that, actually, it can't be achieved in the timescale given without causing grievous harm to the country so let's call the whole thing off and have a rethink, we've still honoured the result by taking it seriously rather than ignoring it.
If we took the result, analysed the results and decided to implement changes which addressed the reasons why people voted to leave, that's still honouring the result of what was an advisory referendum - parliament will have acted on that advisement.
"We voted to leave three years therefore we must leave regardless, it's the will of the people" is misguided at best IMHO.
rone
I’d take a punt it would still be leave.
People are angry at stuff, and even more frustrated than in 2016.
I keep saying it but- it's possible if you reran the vote, ie all possible and fantasy brexits, regardless of how ridiculous, hard, soft, insane, and incompatible they are, lumped together, then it might be leave still. But if it's Actual Possible Agreed Leave which is a known quanitity, against Remain, it'll be remain every single time. The brexiteers knew there's no real brexit that could ever win, that's why the entire campaign was about making shit up and pretending all brexits were possible and compatible.
I'm guessing they'll be popping into every Spoons along the way for refreshment.
That's a lot of pints of tetleys.
Except Nigel is not actually marching with them just waving them off and then meeting them at the other end. Suckers.
And another thing those idiots who spend all day in Parliament Sq waving flags and holding idiot boards. Is that a job? Who pays for that?
So seriously if it's run again and its still leave will it be a cart blanche hard exit ...or you really really lost this time
that a job? Who pays for that?
Could be paid for by leave or remain....
It might well be a "Hard Brexit" in two years time, but the transition that a vote for the Withdrawl Agreement in a referendum would give us would avoid a "Hard Exit" this year. That's the beauty of a WA vs Remain referendum, an utterly insane break down of everything is avoided this year, and buys some time for some sense to come out of nowhere and overcome our currently intoxicated politicians, even if Leave win. Maybe.
Ahh… the sweet smell of "sovereignty"…
On currency, the US wants to “ensure that the UK avoids manipulating exchange rates in order to prevent effective balance of payments adjustment or to gain an unfair competitive advantage”.
https://amp.ft.com/content/09bfe7ca-3bae-11e9-b72b-2c7f526ca5d0
This is the first thing I've seen that seems offers a way for a 2nd ref vote to pass Parliament.
I wonder if anyones totted up how much Failing Grayling has personally cost us all over his years of incompetence? He must have topped a few billion by now?
I'm wondering if anyone could beat him, and the only person I can think of is IDS and how much his Universal Credit shambles will end up costing us all
Was just about to post that BBC link!
Maybe they can take it from the £350 million per week they'll be giving the NHS...
meanwhile back at the ports - surprise surprise the IT will be a disaster because complex systems to integrate and no-one's planned on teaching people to operate them
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/28/brexit_border_it_systems/