I am back to getting really cross about this
It's the British way.
thanks for that kimbers, i really must avoid reading comments. The level of crap being spouted, the complete failure to understand how the world works and the repetition of lies is depressing. What i am noticing is the huge disparity between Twitter and Facebook, Facebook seems to contain far higher percentage of morons?
I don’t think it’s that simple…it’s my understanding that the number of MEPs from other countries has been increased to take up our quota
That is the the least of the issues, the parliamentary act that covered the euro elections has been repealed already so would need to be re-enacted.
As MEPs are elected for 5 year terms, how about we extend Article 50 for 5 years as well. Then everyone's happy.
Or not.
Blokes on a forum changing the world again.
How about you tell us the Brexit positives then.
Im not sure that philxx1975 can do much more than troll on brexit
id love to be proved wrong tho, phill?
Im not sure that philxx1975 can do much more than troll on brexit
id love to be proved wrong tho, phill?
Is he back? The killfile is really good for this sort of thing.
Not that I am saying I have killfiled phil (I still like the idea of him wasting energy to try to troll me if he is a bit unsure about whether I can see his nonsense or not). Or maybe, I have.....
Now this is what I call 'Taking Back Control'.
DHL
NHS
NDB
FFS
!!!
and in other news a tory pps is sacked for proposing to ring fence the rights of EU citizens an hour after a minister supported the amendment.
So much for the nasty party being friendly and cuddly.
Why do seemingly everyone, across all parties & the political spectrum (including the media), doggedly hang on to the phrase “it’s the will of the people”, when only 37% of eligible voters actually voted to leave?
From, the 75th Brexit thread that just got close.
In short - forget the 37% thing, if you don't vote your opinion counts for nothing, doesn't matter which side of the fence you sit, if you don't vote you can only blame yourself. 52% of people who counted, voted to leave.
As for why Leavers say it? Simply put they want to win and there's a chance they'll lose Ref2.
Ref1 was botched IMHO, it allowed a situation whereby Remain could only sell the truth "Things are getting better in the economy, we do very well out of the EU, things will be worse if we leave" unfortunately this was coming from the very people who'd be blaming the EU for every bit of bad news they didn't fancy taking the blame for, for decades.
Leave on the other hand could promise ANYTHING they wanted to, and they did, it was going to be easy, it was going to be brilliant, it was going to save the NHS, it was going to make us all rich, we'd keep the Single Market because we'd be mad not to, we'd be able to visit and live anywhere we wanted to in Europe because we're special, but at the same time we'd stop anyone else coming here - after all all those scary looking people hiding in the back of lorries are allowed to sneak in because 'Barmy Brussels' and if we didn't leave Turkey was going to join because we were powerless to stop it and they'd all come here and claim a free house and £5k a week in Benefits and lots of them are MUSLIMS and you know Sharia Law!!
Ref2 would be simpler, stop this painful madness and go back to how it was, or well, see the previous 1528 pages for details.
Leave on the other hand could promise ANYTHING they wanted to, and they did, it was going to be easy
The different leave campaigns also did well here. Since they could promise completely contradictory things to each other.
The reason "the will of the people" mantra is so popular still is that now all the wishful thinking, sunny uplands, cake and unicorns and outright lies have been shown to be just that over the last three years, it's the only argument they've got left for still going ahead with it.
The irony of course being that this is almost certainly a lie now too, and probably was at the time of the referendum. It's been used to effectively try and silence half of the voters: 17 million yays is "the will of the people" and must be obeyed at all costs, 16 million nays is "screw those guys, we won you lost get over it."
This is why they're so shit scared of another referendum. Deep down they know it's a lie and they are terrified that they'll lose. If they genuinely believed brexit was "the will of the people" then they'd be campaigning hard for another referendum just to teach us remoaners a lesson and finally shut us up for good. The fact that they aren't doing so tells you all you need to know about the actual will of the people.
Surely on something as significant as this there should have been a stipulated minimum (or even obligatory) turn out for the result to be binding.
Ah, see, you're late to the party. It's Schrodinger's Referendum here. The referendum is only binding when it helps Leave.
It was an advisory referendum, an opinion poll. There is no provision in our democracy for any other kind (and if it was it'd have surely required a supermajority, look at how elections work).
This has been corrupted into something that HAS to be carried out (another lie), yet is still conveniently advisory when it's challenged in court. If the vote result was mandatory then it would've been overturned a couple of weeks ago, but it isn't, so it wasn't, but we still have to obey it anyway.
No, me neither.
The whole sorry affair has been an absolute masterclass in propaganda wars and misdirection which would put that little bloke in Germany in the late 1930s to shame. When this all comes out in the wash - as it surely will in 10, 20, 30 years time maybe - it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if a good number of people will be going to jail for a very long time for their part in the wilful gross manipulation and deceit of the British public.
HoC has just voted against the SNP motion that No Deal should be completely ruled out. I guess that's as good a sign as any of what's happening in four weeks time.
Equally the amendment to guarantee rights of EU citizen in UK and vice versa was waved through with no vote, so that's something.
The Cooper amendment next will be interesting...
tjagain
Member
I agree with you on a lot of things. However your insistence that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is sheer piffle
I think Corbyn absolutely wants it. He just knows it's an incredibly bad idea so he's not doing it. I want to slap one of my colleagues but I'm yet to do it.
So 20 voted against the Cooper amendment which basically asks May to do what she said she'd do. That means there are 20 mps who are happy to be given promises that she doesn't deliver on, and allow her to continue to lie and weasel her way out of any binding commitment. Fools.
That's good though isn't it? Demonstrates no deal will have to be voted for if it comes to the crunch and about about a 500 to 20 majority would vote against no deal if it comes to it.
So BRINO/vassal state or remain are now the options?
The earlier vote to categorically rule out no deal failed in order to keep it on the table as a threat, but that threat has now essentially been neutered by this vote.
I think?
Yep, No Deal isn't the default option any more. The challenge comes when they try to agree the duration of any delay - if that fails to get agreement (and ratification from the EU) then what's next?
Oh and if a50 is extended, what are the rules of engagement? Is no deal still off the table?
Labour defeated too , so Corbynn and co must go for people vote ?
If the vote result was mandatory then it would’ve been overturned a couple of weeks ago, but it isn’t, so it wasn’t, but we still have to obey it anyway.
So do you think this was an "accidental" outcome of the referendum being advisory? No, me neither. The more I look back the more I see some clever stage management going right back to the Con/Libdem coalition.
LibDems a threat? Get them onboard then assist them to shoot themselves in the foot.
Pesky UKIP taking votes? Offer a referendum. It's going to be corrupt and dirty but it's OK it's advisory so the result will stand.
My prediction....
Don't leave on 29th march
Extension requested and allowed by EU27 who are keen to show good will.
May goes for as little an extension as possible - 3 months max.
Nothing changes. No majority.
June comes around... No MEPs, EU has done more no deal planning, we crash out when additional extension not approved.
If the vote result was mandatory then it would’ve been overturned a couple of weeks ago, but it isn’t, so it wasn’t, but we still have to obey it anyway.
We aren't leaving because of the referendum, we are leaving because a motion to leave was passed by the house.
Can someone explain in detail why no deal is now not the default option? What is the default?
Can someone explain in detail why no deal is now not the default option?
No deal will happen by default, because that's the law as it stands. To prevent no deal, the HoC must pass legislation that enables something else to happen. But if they can't agree on that something else, no deal is what we'll get.
Labour defeated too , so Corbynn and co must go for people vote ?
That's what they've said they will do.
onewheelgood
Subscriber
Can someone explain in detail why no deal is now not the default option?No deal will happen by default, because that’s the law as it stands. To prevent no deal, the HoC must pass legislation that enables something else to happen. But if they can’t agree on that something else, no deal is what we’ll get.
HOC legislation can happen overnight though, it's just the latest chapter in the worst game of brinkmanship in history.
The UK gov will capitulate, eventually, imo.
But house will now have a vote at the 11th hour on whether it wants to vote a no deal through *IF it comes to that.
*May's vassal/BRINO deal might get through but I doubt it.
There's a massive majority against no deal as proven by the Cooper amendment passing. The MPs are too scared to officially take it off the table though, party before people across the house.
When no deal is eventually taken off the table, may will seek an extension.
The extension won't be granted, it only takes one EU country to veto, and France have already said they will veto without a clear plan.
So the UK will be be right back between a rock and a hard place.
The UK options will then literally be limited to:
BRINO/vassal state/May's deal
2nd ref (can't see that getting through the commons)
Or a retraction of article 50.
must go for people vote
"Exploring other options", first.
To prevent no deal, the HoC must pass legislation that enables something else to happen.
No, the government has the power to change the legislation in any way it sees fit (that weird power was written into it, which annoyed many) and recind A50 notification, without any new legislation. This government says it won't. It's led by someone who has previously done things she said she'd never do though.
We aren’t leaving because of the referendum, we are leaving because a motion to leave was passed by the house.
The government decided that we're leaving… and chose the timescales… parliament just voted to give her that power (a court case forced the PM to ask parliment for that power).
"John McDonnell said the party would table an amendment for a referendum when the "meaningful vote" on Theresa May's deal returns to Parliament."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47392018
Pick your Labour figurehead, pick your next action. Corbyn said other options to be explored first. Hopefully McD, Starmer and others will bounce him.
Pick your Labour figurehead, pick your answer. Corbyn said other options to be explored first. Hopefully McD and others bounce him.
The article I quoted did not say that, what's your source?
I was listening. Will listen again…
Oh labour, lol!
I suspect, by morning, the policy will settle clearly on pushing for a referendum. Still looks way too late to me, but would be very glad to be proven wrong.
McD on Peston sounding very clear…
The party must campaign on the values its supporters in the real, progressive, multi-ethnic working class believe in, not on the values of people who will never vote for it.
Ok, so to continue from the other thread - there as to be a reason people want out, & there has to be a big reason for the government (& the rest of parliament seemingly) to go with it.
I don’t believe it’s as nuanced as previously mentioned. I don’t think that people looked upon the host of issues that have emerged throughout the debate, and somehow ranked them to form a coherent decision. Most of the people I talk to admit it’s the number of foreigners that bother them. I wouldn’t suggest they’re racist as others have, but I can see they’re certainly uneasy about the numbers coming in. I’m not particularly bothered by it as I can read the ONS reports myself about migration and how it actually helps our economy, but I was struck by how many foreign voices and languages I heard on a recent trip to Peterborough for my daughters passport. Not bothered by it but it stood out to me.
What I’m getting at, is why has it become such a big divisive “thing”. As mentioned, I don’t recall anyone I know or met demanding to leave the EU, it had more of a feel of an arrogant gesture by Cameron to his more right wing colleagues and voters. Cameron certainly didn’t see this result (like many others).
So why the wholesale bandwagon jumping? Why is parliament going along with it? Who’s getting rich from it?
I guess those who feel left behind, after years of Austerity, Public sector cuts, not enough schools, hospitals, or anything really, need someone to blame.
It’s much easier to blame it on an inrush of foreigners, than to admit you have slashed public services too far and we need to pay more tax.
If we want Scandinavian levels of service we need to pay for them. But that won’t win votes.
My Labour MP has tweeted a couple of times refuting the idea that Labour voters generally voted leave. Apparently not the case even in leave constituencies.
So if you're directing Labour now, looking to get elected do you a) back brexit and expect floating voters to come with you, or b) back remain, and expect floating voters to come with you?
My money says that if you have remainers looking for somewhere to put their vote, then you're a lot more likely to get more libdem or even conservative voters move to a party backing remain, than you are to have hard of thinking leavers desert Labour to back ukip (who don't really exist any more), libdem or conservative.
They're completely missing an open goal my view, and I very much doubt it's because they can't see it.
Mildred, you're right about the money thing. Who is making the money out of all this? Enough to let the entire car industry collapse and barely blink.Ok, a smart few in the city are obviously getting their kicks out of all the turmoil, but there has to be more to it than just those few.
Anyway, back to the OP asked all those years ago. EU, are you in or out? Has anyone on here actually changed their mind? Not just beaten into submission by it, but would actually change their vote given the chance?
No, in many ways I’m an even stronger remain now than before. I was persuadable to leave, but the arguments and (lack of) plans were very weak.
What I really detest is how it’s given a platform to the Racist Far Right.
…actually change their vote given the chance?
It's worth noting that some people (that I know) still think we should eventually Leave the EU, but say they would vote Remain in a referendum held this year, to stop the clock, and would want to return to the issue when/if they could get a government who could "do Brexit right". Likewise, some people still think we're far better off staying in the EU (or some kind of EEA+CU compromise) but would vote Leave in a referendum held this year, to "protect democracy." To say it wouldn't be a simple campaign, based purely on the merits and trade-offs of membership, would be an understatement. It will get very messy very fast… especially if rushed.
Hardcore remain now. I think I've become a federalist.
Before the vote I was prepared to moan about certain EU things. Throwing away perfectly good fish etc.
Now I've turned into a pro EU gammon.
Between our politicians and loud mouth holiday makers I'm amazed the EU have put up with us for so long.