A more moderate labour party? You mean the tories? This labour party policies are simply main stream social democratic in European terms. If they move further to the right they become a right wing party as they were under blair latterly.
La la la.
Take the "everyone else is a Tory" chat to somewhere else please, and get back on topic.
Wait. What? The members arent important?
They've very important indeed. I don't know about you, but I'm quite happy that the country is presently being held to ransom by a few thousand demented pensioners in the home counties who want to bring back hanging and invade France, then install a haunted victorian pencil as PM, and that our present party system has allowed them to dictate policy for the last few years
I'm equally happy that the opposition can't oppose this madness because the party leadership is dependent on a load of sixth formers, who they ignore, and Derek Hatton and some more old trots who still think its 1977, are more interested in whats going on in Venezuela than Brexit, and would quite like it if there weren't so many jews in the country.
All in all listening to 'party membership' is working out great for the country, right across the board
Sorry TJ but Corbyns "democratic capitalism" is way, way more redical than anything on the continent. The idea sounds nice but the implementation would be hugely disruptive and absolutely piss off all of our neighbours and allies. China only gets away with co-operative or nationalised industry because they have the clout to be able to sell in foreign markets, the UK would instantly find itself blocked from any foreign markets and a lot of very upset pharmaceutical, automotive, aviation and tech industries would pull out the UK and then lobby against us.
Huawei is finding it hard enough, and they have the Chinese state behind them - not a co-operative in Swindon.
Sorry TJ but Corbyns “democratic capitalism” is way, way more redical than anything on the continent.
At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?
And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise.
It will be remainders 2 – 0 leavers.
Well I shall get the champers on ice then.
At last, something real to discuss…
Start another thread about it then.
Even Farage doesn't want to leave anymore (perhaps he's just realised he'll be out of a job...)
Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be: 'we're going to renationalise the railways and we're putting Len McClusky in charge. Don't worry... he'll have it sorted in no time!'
"Oh... and we're sorted the energy supply companies out. We've booted them all out and we're re-opening the mines"
the continent.
At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?
And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise
Worker owned companies are shareholder companies, they act in their interest not necessarily societies.
Co-ops work in a limited range of industries (it's no use riffing off the usual suspects like John Lewis), they do not work in industries that require rapid change - tech, pharma, engineering. If my company democratised then we'd spend 30 hours of the working week arguing and we'd fall behind the private classic corporations.
Direct democracy in regards to macroeconomic policy is mental for the same reason the Brexit vote was.
If you really want better labour bargaining power, the world has to equalise it's living standards and tax rates, somewhere where the EU was headed. Labour isn't internationalist like that now though.
The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
That's a downward trajectory. It doesn't change the status quo, which as we know as not been good.
A more moderate Labour part is exactly what they don't want.
It's not a downward trajectory because of moderate labour or the EU, it's a downward trajectory because the rest of the world is improving their purchasing power, where hard power and bargaining ability is what guarantees your wealth. Corbyns economics won't change that.
You can't insulate the UK from the rest of the world, both the left and right need to understand that they aren't living in the 50s - where Johnny Foreigner was poor and ill educated. The working classes need to learn that the wealth that was stolen and brought into the country, giving them jobs - is no longer available to us.
We live in a limited system, for every foreigner who earns more and betters their life - without considerable growth in the UK - the more your lifestyle costs.
We need more resource abundance through automation and new tech and less people. Everything else is pissing on a fire.
Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore
In fairness to the arsehole he is simply saying he doesnt agree with maybots proposal and, I assume, would prefer a hard brexit option to be on the voting paper.
Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be
Thats quite a leap you made there… Sorry I am too lazy to include the inane picture so just imagine it.
Rayban / Binners - in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on - name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.
thoughts, May has decided we are leaving an MPs are too stupid to see they are being played. The EU elections mean no parliament from mid April. No elections on the UK means the UK can't be in the EU 1 July.
All the talk of extensions is actually irrelevant, mid April it is over. an extension to mid June really only gives two weeks.
May is basically offering her racist little england brexit or no deal. The talk of Labour backing a referendum is simply playing to the galleries wasting time.
EU elections need to happen, to give time for a referendum to happen. If there were a new referendum, just watch the bots and trolls.
As for Farage, there is a second thought, if the plan is to break the EU, and looking at the money being plowed into the far right, it might make sense for Farage's paymaster to get him re-elected.
There is plenty of time for a second referendum - the EU have made it clear they would extend for as long as that needed. Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.
Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.
IF they legislate to hold them, watch parliament fail to do this. Watch May block it.
"Farage says he'll go on holiday..."
Can we come up with suggestions on where he could go? I'm up for sending him to the surface of the sun.
Why do the media constantly give the tosser air-time?
Rayban / Binners – in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on – name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.
You've conviently only mentioned the classic nationalisation of strategic assets.
This
Another part of “democratisation” involves promoting worker control over private businesses. Worker-owned and -managed companies are rare in Britain. Less than 1% of workers are members of co-operatives. Most people do not understand what a co-op is or how to set one up—though they like the look of John Lewis, the retailer owned by its workers, which is often cited by politicians trying to build support for co-ops. (Even David Cameron, a former Conservative prime minister, praised the chain.)
Labour goes further. It has promised to give workers a “right to own”, allowing them the first chance to buy their company if it is sold.
Goes further than any mainstream left wing European party, as politico and Der Spiegel have pointed out in the past it puts them in with the fringe left in Europe.
That policy would be nothing short of a disaster in terms of our ability to trade with the rest of the world.
You haven't managed to counter our other points either, you are just asking questions that you hope we don't know the answer to in an effort to undermine our positions.
There's back good balanced criticism.here
is for one one reason and one reason only….
Jeremy Corbyn
There may be otehr factors,
Make your mind up?
worker representation on boards - like in Germany? Workers owning part of the companies - like in Germany?
When companies are sold giving the workforce the right to buy? hardly radical.
Its hardly forced nationalisation without compensation
TAKE THIS LOVELY DISCUSSION ABOUT LABOUR POLICY IN GENERAL TO ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE
worker representation on boards – like in Germany? Workers owning part of the companies – like in Germany?
When companies are sold giving the workforce the right to buy? hardly radical
Those aren't co-operative, you are obfuscating. My company has that, it's still very much a corporate.
hardly forced
Yeah just forced at a state approved price.
That article quite clearly states how and why capital would run a ****ing mile. Then you are going to have to try and convince people to trade with you.
Good luck, it sounds as mental as the ERG. You've also failed to respond to my argument that it wouldn't even help counter the reasons for our dropping living standards.
TAKE THIS LOVELY DISCUSSION ABOUT LABOUR POLICY IN GENERAL TO ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE
It ties in with this thread - the need to stay in the EU etc.
SO Maybot has hoofed the can down the road
& the Tory moderates have bought into it, nicely, while the ERG headbangers know that theyre hand is just the same, if not strengthened
Farage is interesting. He knows full well if Brexit happens, his new party is a dead duck. If we hold a referendum & he won’t campaign, he increases remain chance, and gives him a banner to fly in politics.
I really hope the IG has legs. I’ve been desperate for a moderate party for years. I will never forgive any of the main parties for Brexit. Personally, I’m also a big fan of PR. The whole “I win you lose” politics thing is awful & leads to short termism. Politics should be about consensus, not huge populist swings. If we could all vote for a party we believed in, rather than just a red v blue choice, we would end up with much better MPs.
Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore
In fairness to the arsehole he is simply saying he doesnt agree with maybots proposal and, I assume, would prefer a hard brexit option to be on the voting paper.
See, this is another thing he's full of shit on.
If it's a 3-way Hard/Maybot/Remain - remain wins easily because it splits the leave vote between the Nutters/Sod it, we've come this far/Remoaners
If it's a 2 way between Hard/Remain remain wins easily because it's only the really the nutters who think it'll all be a Spitfires over Dover return to a past that never really existed and the We can all work in factories comrades who vote for a hard brexit over remain.
Not even he's enough of a muppet to think we can just reset the clock, drag the EU into an completely new negotiation and some how come out better off 'because reasons'.
The problem for the Farages / Johnsons and JRMs is that, we've reached the logical conclusion of negotiating with an better organised opponent who has more cards to play than us. The deal doesn't deliver very much of what they promised, equally if we flounce, even if we don't pay what we owe (which we said we wouldn't) we're out of the G8 in months and into a recession that will make the 2008 'Great Recession' look small.
The only card they can play now is "We'd have done it better" - if we crash out, it's may fault because "We'd have done it better" if we take Maybot Deal and when it makes a detrimental affect on our economy / lifestyles and freedom of movement "We'd have done it better" if, which is seeming more likely by the day, we end up with Ref2 "We'd have done it better" so unlike Corbyn and May, they could actually come out of this looking better than when it started and spend the rest of their careers making empty threats about breaking up the EU.
I like the bit about needing a certain level of turnout for a referendum and he's happy to admit we didn't.
But democracy, will of (some of) the people, betrayal etc etc.
Oxygen thief.
Labour is braced for a backlash from shadow ministers and backbenchers angry at the party’s plans to support an amendment for a second EU referendum, with several of them warning they would defy the whip in order to sink the plan.
The Grauniad
As I keep on stating labour is hopelessly split over this. Its not Corbyn pushing for a hard brexit. Its Corbyn attempting to hold the party together
The high-profile backbenchers Stephen Kinnock, Lucy Powell and Caroline Flint are among the others who would be highly likely to oppose a second referendum amendment. Powell said she believed at least 25 MPs would vote against any whip to back another referendum.
The Labour MP John Mann, a Brexit supporter, criticised the party’s “absurd” shift to support a second referendum. “Voters won’t have it. The last person to renege on their manifesto was Nick Clegg. It didn’t end very well for him on tuition fees,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.
Caroline Flint - I seem to remember folk on here suggesting she should be leader.
Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable
You usually refer to him as a far left extremist. Make your mind up! Alternatively, post another inane picture and insult the members of the party you can't be bothered to join.
Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!
Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!
My apologies! I was forgetting that Corbyn is referred to as grandpa. A sign of maturity from these supposed moderates, I'm sure you'll agree.
Have we had the leaked memo yet?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/world/europe/brexit-theresa-may-brussels.html
Each mission has ended without a deal, or even a hint of progress, leaving baffled observers to wonder what, exactly, Mrs. May and European officials talk about in these get-togethers. Now, a confidential document summarizing a Feb. 7 meeting from the European side has offered up an answer: “Nothing.”
The readout shows that Mrs. May used the Feb. 7 meeting with the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, to once again request something that has repeatedly been rejected: a time limit on the so-called backstop provision concerning the Irish border, which as it stands could keep Britain in the European Union’s customs union indefinitely.
Ms. May suggested there was a possible alternative, but apparently did not offer any details about what that might be. “May did not explain what she meant by alternative arrangements to the backstop. Not at all,” the document states.
“At this point, there is only room for discussion inside Britain, but not with us,” the Feb. 7 summary read, underscoring the conclusion that Ms. May’s problems were domestic, political and unlikely to be resolved by talking to European leaders.
After talking to Mr. Juncker, Mrs. May met Donald Tusk, president of the European Council. The document describes that meeting as “Mostly a repeat of the conversation with Juncker.”
So what is an extension for if the same people are going to continue to repeat the same things - might be a conclusion the EU comes to.
The EU have made it clear that an extension would be granted if needed if there was a rtesolution on the horizon, a change of government or a proposal for another referendum or something similar. They will NOT accept a extension for simply more can kicking
Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!
Now there's fame for ya
Hmm.
Whilst worrying that does strike me as crediting May as being a better strategist then the evidence supports. She doesnt seem to manage tactical decisions let alone this sort of level.
Her main talent as a politician seems to be blame dodging eg how Amber Rudd got tossed under the wheels for Mays policies as Home Secretary. Not to be dismissed and I am sure many overpromoted idiots will be praying they have the same talent but it doesnt come across as strategic genius just bare faced guilt dodging.
So what is an extension for if the same people are going to continue to repeat the same things – might be a conclusion the EU comes to.
How long does it typically take the UK to hold a General Election?
So GE, plus a couple of months then the ERG's nomination for Tory Leader can go and have the same conversation, but this time He (it's not going to be a she is it) will shout at them. It's the only way to get through to Johnny Foreigner!
The EU elections is a piece of humbuggery. Two solutiuons have been suggested to hold elections anyway even if we might leave after a few months and sim0ly continue with the same MSPs without elections.
I am back to getting really cross about this as its obvious that the majority of mps want a sensible solution either a second ref or the softest of soft brexits but too many tories put party before country and too many labour are dimwits that think we should "respect the referendum" even to the point of not rerunning it.
And as they bugger about the country is steadily more damaged.
Her main talent as a politician seems to be blame dodging
Well she was known as the 'submarine' before she became PM.
Difficult questions? Sorry I'm going on holiday. It still rings true.
Dive dive dive!
Not exactly the traits you want to see as the leader of anything.
brexits but too many tories put party before country and too many labour are dimwits that think we should “respect the referendum” even to the point of not rerunning it.
Careful there TJ, you'll be agreeing with me and Binners next 😀 😛
I agree with you on a lot of things. However your insistence that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is sheer piffle
The EU elections is a piece of humbuggery. Two solutiuons have been suggested to hold elections anyway even if we might leave after a few months and sim0ly continue with the same MSPs without elections.
I don't think it's that simple...it's my understanding that the number of MEPs from other countries has been increased to take up our quota
Comments are funny mtbing brexiters not liking that bike parts in the EU getting more expensive thanks to Brexit
(Sorry for horrendous FB link)
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