TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.
This is going to end well for labour isn’t it?
Bwhahahah.
Yeah, Tiggers are the new kids on the block so every Man, Women and their Dog are interested, whether they support them or not. They're not really a party (at the moment) plus there are former Tories amongst them, it's not just a Labour splinter group, although I suspect a lot would return under a different leader.
I'm really interested in how they pan out, if they do become a party, or 'just' force change within Lab/Tor and then fade into history.
And those polling numbers are irrelevant unless they stand in every seat.
A hunch tells me a lot of donors are going to be throwing money at them to do just that.
In a mirror image of having Theresa May supporting an amendment to defeat her own deal, According to John Pienaar on the BBC; Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with labour MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own party's stated policy (and that decided by conference) of a second referendum,
The worlds gone ****ing mad!
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else's views other than his own
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own
Or you could work out this is the single most decisive issue in UK politics, doesn't fall across any party lines and is causing chaos everywhere. The only leader with any slight control is May and it's only slight as she can put things forward and sort of control the timetable. the rest don't have that and no threat of losing power to whip votes.
That is the lesson to learn form this.
Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own policy’s party of a second referendum
So Corbyn has gone full Vladislav Surkov in his approach to politics (postmodernist theatre)?
Farage suggests leavers should boycott any referendum offering choice between May's deal and remain.
Farage quits?
Labours ‘plan’ is totally nonsensical. Remain in ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union, retain tariff free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of movement.
So nonsensical that it's what Turkey does right now.
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost
The only thing it confirms is that he's not the 'totalitarian dictator' that you and others on this thread have been claiming and that the labour party democracy is in ruder health than the usual anti-labour suspects on here claim. There will be people who disagree with the 2nd vote policy, and they will continue to campaign against it, as they have the right to do. They will probably rebel too when it reaches the commons. I'd rather they didn't but as some have said, politics is now in a place where party whips have been rendered redundant so there's no reason for them not to.
The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They've nailed their colours to the mast (belatedly admittedly), as many on here have been wanting, so now we just have to wait and see what happens. My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they've given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM. Strange isn't it how quiet he is at the moment? Keeping his head down no doubt in advance of the coming tory leadership election.
So nonsensical that it’s what Turkey does right now.
What "Turkey does now" doesn't keep the border on Ireland open, and doesn't allow for us "having a say" in future EU trade deals, as Corbyn is seeking.
The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They’ve nailed their colours to the mast
I honestly don't think the party or Corbyn has, I really think Corbyn is playing at being Surkov. He is Schroedinger's Brexiter, in that he is still pretending to be both a remaminer and a brexiter.
Maybe this is why Boris has gone quiet? (Maybe he is in hiding in South America!!)
anti-labour suspects
Criticising Corbyn and his team of shitbags is not equivalent to criticising all labour policy. It’s cultish to describe Corbyn’s critics of being “anti-labour”.
The Tories image as the party of business is irrevocably destroyed
In only two words as well - impressive.
Corbyn and labour still have the problem of 100 or so labour MPs who believe that labour must not have a remain option ever at all - not for leftie reasons but for fear of the electorate
"The Labour MP John Mann warned Corbyn risked being ditched by voters over the party’s “absurd” shift to support a second referendum.
“Voters won’t have it. The last person to renege on their manifesto was Nick Clegg. It didn’t end very well for him on tuition fees,” he told Today.
“Our manifesto was unambiguous – we would accept the result of the referendum. A second referendum doesn’t do that and the voters – in very, very large numbers – will not accept that.”
This is Corbyns issue and it would be the same with any labour leader.
BTW binners - that did not answer my question but I know its impossible.
One little quote of Corbyn saying he wants a hard brexit? Labour position is softest of soft brexits
And now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum - the attack dogs are out
My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they’ve given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM.
Yep.
Tory double win. Crackers.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1100376928341688321
15th March is the day Caesar was stabbed in the back, wasn't it?
nd now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum – the attack dogs are out
That's well and truly underway.
But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.
Sorry Uncle Jezza but on this your wilful myopia regarding magic grandad is absolutely ridiculous. Much like the rest of the cultists
I'll link it again for you
LABOURS OFFICIAL NEGOTIATING POSITION AS TAKEN FROM ITS OWN WEBSITE
Labour offers fair rules and reasonable management of migration. In trade negotiations our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity. We make no apologies for putting these aims before bogus immigration targets.
Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.
in what way does that fail to answer your question? As part of its official position the labour party's own website clearly states that FoM WILL END
So... no freedom of movement... no customs union and no single market
Pure pie-in-the-sky cakism
But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.
So which is responsible for "austerity and living standards plummeting"? The Tory government or the EU?
the attack dogs are out
True.
Looks like some front benchers are prepare to fight back against Milne&Co this time though…
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1100297815547437057?s=21
So… no freedom of movement… no customs union and no single market
This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics. Labour have been clear that they want a customs union and regulatory alignment with the single market. By any definition that is a soft brexit. Who cares if we call it 'THE' customs union or 'A' customs union? It's just daft.
Anyway, there's now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he'll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights. All enabled by the failure of the labour party to stick to it's manifesto commitments. I look forward to Yvette Cooper et al being rightly slagged off on here in a coupe of years when we start to see the wholesale dismantling of the welfare state.
As far as I can see the only hope of avoiding this now is to win a new referendum and win a remain vote in it. Given that there are substantial numbers of MPs on both sides who will not support a referendum, that's going to be an extremely tall order.
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt
nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario.
Thats quite a leap you made there...
nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote
Well that's just pure speculation. At least we know what the excuses and accusations of blame will be when labour lose. It's tragic really, the only hope of brexit not being the neoliberal nightmare we all fear was the labour party being at the helm to steer it, and I really can't see that happening now.
This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own
A Wikipedia contributor / editor has conveniently condensed his thoughts and actions in regards to the EU into a couple of paragraphs.
"European Union
Corbyn has previously been a left-wing Eurosceptic. In the 1975 European Communities referendum, Corbyn opposed Britain's membership of the European Communities, the precursor of the European Union (EU).[250] Corbyn also opposed the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993,[251] opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008,[252] and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the EU in 2011.[253] He accused the EU of acting "brutally" in the 2015 Greek crisis by allowing financiers to destroy its economy.[253][254]
During his leadership campaign, Corbyn said there might be circumstances in which he would favour withdrawal from the EU.[255] However, in September 2015, Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for Britain to stay in the EU regardless of the result of Cameron's negotiations, and instead "pledge to reverse any changes" if Cameron reduced the rights of workers or citizens.[256] He also believed that Britain should play a crucial role in Europe by making demands about working arrangements across the continent, the levels of corporation taxation and in forming an agreement on environmental regulation.[257]
In June 2016, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Corbyn said that there was an "overwhelming case" for staying in the EU. In a speech in London, Corbyn said: "We, the Labour Party, are overwhelmingly for staying in, because we believe the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment." Corbyn also criticised media coverage and warnings from both sides, saying that the debate had been dominated too much by "myth-making and prophecies of doom".[258] He said he was "seven, or seven and a half" out of 10 for staying in the EU.[259]
In July 2017, Corbyn said that Britain could not remain in the European Single Market after leaving the EU, saying that membership of the single market was "dependent on membership of the EU", although it includes some non-EU countries.[260][261] Shadow Minister Barry Gardiner later suggested that Corbyn meant that Labour interpreted the referendum result as wanting to leave the single market.[262][263] Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for an alternative arrangement involving "tariff free access".[261] In January 2018, Corbyn reiterated that Labour would not seek to keep the UK in the single market after Brexit,[264] however in June 2018 Corbyn called for a "new single market" deal for the UK after Brexit maintaining "full access" to the EU internal market, as opposed to the "Norway model" which pro-Remainers in the party wish to see.[265] In October 2017, Corbyn said that he would vote remain if there were another referendum.[266]
In 2018, Corbyn said his main reason for not committing to remaining in the single market was freedom from EU rules on state aid to industry. He said the UK government should not be "held back, inside or outside the EU, from taking the steps we need to support cutting edge industries and local business".[267] This prompted backlash from senior EU figures, who said that state subsidisation would be a "red line" in negotiations, as it would lead to a possible trade war between the UK and EU. One senior figure told The Times: "We have to protect ourselves and the single market ... If a Corbyn government implements his declared policies the level playing field mechanism will lead to increased costs for Britain to access the single market because of distortions caused by state aid."[268]
Also in 2018 Corbyn said he would seek a new type of customs union with the European Union, but will seek exemptions of some EU regulations for the UK, such as those regarding state aid and government subsidies.[269]
In 2019, Labour lost a vote of no confidence in the government. The Conservative government sought to open cross party talks while Corbyn initially said Labour would refuse to attend talks unless the government ruled out a "no deal brexit".[270]"
Of course this is his voting record and more recent statements and should be considered in conjunction with his rather quiet performance running up to Ref1.
I've read recently, but I don't know how true it is that he's the most 'disloyal' MP in history, in regards to voting against the whip when he feels he should. Over 400 times in his time, his voting record it said to be anti-EU up to the point he became leader of Labour.
If he did wish to remain up to Ref1, it's clear to me that he certainly doesn't want to be part of the single-market post-brexit, given how few trade deals we have at the moment, a non single-market withdrawal would mean a 'hard' brexit to me.
Backing a second referendum earlier would also have split the labour party.
Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he’ll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights
That's the only thing that will keep the economy afloat in the event we crash out.
Hard Brexit can never be anything but a neoliberal nightmare unless you want to align with Cuba, Russia, Iran and China. If a neoliberal nightmare occurs, it's not because the Labour party failed to hold it together - it is because they failed to oppose brexit.
All those working class brexiters are well and truly ****ed now unless we cancel A50.
And +1 Kimbers.
Labour might have been able to mittigate the effects for a term, maybe even 2 (highly unlikely) but the Troies would get back in eventually & thered be no EU sfaety net by then.
More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest
Corbyn, McCkluskey, Milne etc have steered Labour onto the rocks
This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics.
No. Having a customs agreement with the EU, even if you call it a union, is not at all related to what the EU Customs Union actually is, and how it operates. Do not be confused by the use of a very similar name to describe something undefined and not yet agreed with the partners that would be involved (and that wouldn't just be the EU, it would be all those with existing and future agreements with the EU as well, and even those using WTO rules only mainly to trade with us).
The reason we won't have a labour government any time soon is for one reason and one reason only....
Jeremy Corbyn
There may be otehr factors, but theres your elephant in the room. To reach any other conclusion you need to be absolutely delusional and displaying a Waco-cult style level of devotion to the Glorious Leader!!
More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest
The problem with this statement is the assumption that there is a third option of no brexit. As I've argued many times that ship sailed 3 years ago. Whilst I admire the continuing hope that it may still be an option, the reality is that the chances are vanishingly low. The only hope of mitigating the impact on the poorest is to get a deal along the lines of labour policy, and then having a labour government. There's still a decent chance of the former, but very little for the latter now that labour have been forced to go against their manifesto commitments.
Just saw the BBC news 'Theresa May offers MPs Brexit delay vote'
It looks like the remainders are silently celebrating a victory with the latest announcement from the PM. Although the remainders are portraying themselves as "victims" of the political change, they are just about to pull the carpet from under leavers' feet with a coup and perhaps even to perform the final coup de grâce for leavers. It will be remainders 2 - 0 leavers.
You mean the red unicorns policy?
Besides, the customs union is little better economically than Mays deal - and as others said - it won't hold once the Tories get back into power.
And Labour economic policy would make us pariahs in both the US and the EU. I don't even see how Corbyns labour would actually manage to keep us in the customs union considering their policies. The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
Meanwhile, allegedly the Tories are revolting. [insert obvious joke here]
According to reports, a group of 23 met at Commons to discuss how to stop Brexit happening without a deal.
...
"if the Prime Minister is not able to make this commitment, we will have no choice other than to join MPs of all parties in the House of Commons, including fellow ministers, in acting in the national interest to prevent a disaster in less than five weeks’ time that we may regret forever.’"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996
Thanks @chewkw… looks like actual votes in parliament to decide what the (immediate) next steps should be. About time. Will there be some of the usual tricksy May vote avoidance before then though?
The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.
I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before? And if so, how it went, electorally? Sounds like a good idea, in theory
I think that it's fair to say that the recent Labour defections and the numbers who've cancelled their membership (including me) citing frustration with Magic Grandpa's ambiguous Brexit policy may well have precipitated this, but I don't hold out much hope that it'll change anything - there are a lot of "what if"s before this scenario would play out.
The comments from Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson about supporting the forthcoming People's Vote march are welcome.
I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before?
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn't even convince their own members let alone the voters.
but I don’t hold out much hope that it’ll change anything – there are a lot of “what if”s before this scenario would play out.
Nothing is going to work at this stage in the game. Its a case of damage limitation now. And a desperate one at that. When it comes to 'what ifs? you have to wonder if when faced by far the hugest risk to all its previous achievements, and with it likely to usher in the greatest assault on the lives of the working classes - what would have happened had the leader of the labour party even bothered to turn up for the EU referendum campaign, then do something more than sit there for 3 years with his thumb up his arse?
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members.
No.... I definitely seem to recall someone else beforehand.
You're right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that. So best to restrict your appeal exclusively to them, even if everyone else finds you repellent, it doesn't matter. Its as good as in the bag!
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members let alone the voters.
Posted 7 minutes ago
You mean the time they lost because the British public ALWAYS lurch right during a recession?
You’re right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that.
Wait. What? The members arent important? Only a few days ago we were being told because Labour members overall are pro remain we should remain/have a second referendum. It really is hard keep up with the latest anti Corbyn cult position.
Its good to see that whilst the tories are still fiddling with their rebels keeping their heads down the cultists are keeping to their normal hobby of launching rabid attacks on Corbyn rather than questioning the tories. Or indeed bothering to look at the obvious divisions in the Labour party between the remainers and not.
The ERG and tories in general must love the useful idiots ranting about magic granddad or whatever the latest inane nickname is whilst letting the tories piss all over the place.
