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Well played photographer person. Well played.
Yip, youse are arguing that brexit in what ever form it takes is a bad thing. Before the vote. A reasonable stance, yes, that's politics. post vote, nah its spitting the dummy. A ridiculous situation given that the is no appetite from any main party to go against the vote. So it's happening, you either get on with letting other determine the outcome or you take part. Screaming we're heading for a black hole does no one any good. Particularly when it's clear bullshit. Life goes on regardless of politics.
So it's happening, you either get on with letting other determine the outcome or you take part. Screaming we're heading for a black hole does no one any good.
Criticism is useful in keeping everyone honest and in check.
That's why we have an opposition sat in the Commons. We don't just say "Right you lot won, we'll shut up and give you free reign to do anything you like without comment until the next general election"
That's democracy.
Besides, how would you like me to "take part" exactly? What should I be doing that I'm not already?
Who's arguing to give free reign? I'm not.
You're telling us to stop criticising the government's position on Brexit.
How is that not asking for a free reign?
Would it [i]really[/i] be better if we doffed our hats and cheered on Mrs May and her Brave Brexiteers?
Because pure criticism is pointless. I think the transferring EU law in to UK law is interesting, it throws a lot of things in to the long grass, to be fought on an issue by issue basis, so rather the criticise and scream dooooooooom. Maybe look at that as an operchancity. Which is what it is. The Tories in this term won't be able to do it all. Rough framework is where their influence with last I reckon. Why I suspect the likes of corbyn never really supoorted the in vote. He could see the long term gains that could be had with an out vote.
Tbh about all I've got to add. Still forming my own opinions at the moment.
Because pure criticism is pointless
No it isn't - it highlights failings or flaws that otherwise might be missed (deliberately or otherwise).
I think the transferring EU law in to UK law is interesting
Me too. And if you [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/299#post-7995034 ]look back a bit[/url] you'll see I called that approach "fine and sensible" but highlighted my concern that it also includes [i]"powers for ministers to make some changes [to those laws] by secondary legislation, which is not voted on by the Commons in the same way a piece of primary legislation would be."[/i]
See? Support [i]and[/i] criticism.
A ridiculous situation given that the is no appetite from any main party to go against the vote
Who knows where we will be in 2 years time, if it looks like a hard Brexit is on the cards, especially if Fox and Davies find reality much harder than their fantastic demands.
75% of Mays cabinet were remainers, the Tory party committed in their manifesto to keep single market access.
Entry party is divided on the issue and how to deal with it
I'm still (naively ?) hopeful, for the sake of my kids, that the whole silly thing will be called off.
Would add one other thing and that's criticism of the Scottish nationalist approach that EU = wonderful and that an IS should automatically enter it is a mile off. From the fact that it's a clear political tactic, that's pretty disengenuous. And the EU will be a different proposition minus the UK. I'd favour a wait and see approach to be honest post IS. I think alot of people would feel the same and they'd lose a ref predicated on it.
I reckon Scottish public opinion on the eu is much more nuanced than it has been presented in the media. I certainly voted remain as the least worst option. So you could be right about hanging an indy referendum campaign solely on the result of an eu referendum campaign where neither side convinced the public. There are too many unknowns at the moment but as brexit effects start to bite things can change rapidly either way. For example loss of access to Scottish waters will be a problem for Spanish fishermen, and therefore for the Spanish government.
Besides, how would you like me to "take part" exactly? What should I be doing that I'm not already?
Yep IMHO most people are pretty much passengers on this bus 🙁
This has stumped me as well.. Other than a bit of patriotic flag waving I can't think how I can actually help other than paying more taxes in the future and higher prices for everything imported.
There are too many unknowns at the moment but as brexit effects start to bite things can change rapidly either way. For example loss of access to Scottish waters will be a problem for Spanish fishermen, and therefore for the Spanish government.
and i seem to remember that a huge proportion of Scottish fishing exports go to Spain. So who looses. There is of course the minor issue that the UK has cut back everything so far that they would be unable to prevent illegal fishing in territorial waters.
Doesn't it still need to pass vote in parliament, as the referendum was just and advisory indicator? I thought there was also some kind of legal challenge that the referendum was based on pure lies, is that still happening?
Maybe I'm clutching at straws.
The thing that I find really unbelievable is the belief that, because we are such a large market to Europe it is against their own interests to enforce trade levies upon us. This belief would be true if we were able to buy from elsewhere: We import most of our food from Europe and will have no choice but to pay whatever we are to be charged for it. Are we all going to live on potatoes and cabbages grown in the Fens and picked by the longterm unemployed or something?
mattyfez - Member
Doesn't it still need to pass vote in parliament, as the referendum was just and advisory indicator? I thought there was also some kind of legal challenge that the referendum was based on pure lies, is that still happening?Maybe I'm clutching at straws.
It is legal. Nothing to challenge in parliament.
Perfectly legal, just like Bush and Blair going into Iraq to protect the world from Saddam's WMDs 🙄
It is legal. Nothing to challenge in parliament.
The referendum was legal, yes, but given that referendums are basically really opinion polls, it was based on an internal Tory power struggle and a complete farce, that must call into question the legitimacy of it all.
But do parliament still need to vote in favour of leave to rubber stamp it?
So Jamba looking forward to be being evicted from France? I am sure Le Pen would take issue with foreigners stealing french jobs?
I bring my money earnt and taxed in the UK and spend it in France. Le Penn/Sarkozy and Hollande love that. I don't work there.
@igm you maybe onto something 😉 Also had to chuckle at the blacklist, reminds me of the "don't tell 'em Pike" Dad's Army sketch. I manage money for international clients inc pension funds, very few in UK or Europe. Mostly US (individuals, pension, university endowment) or Middle Eastern/Asian (eg SWF)
cchris renting out your UK house is an interesting one, £/€ down 10% but relative property price appreciation and corresponding increase in rents (vs French 3 yr lease system) means it could still be best bet. Plus risk of eurozone implosion means a UK property might still be a good bet. Complicated. Your UK pension like mine will be subject to any future legislation but I can't see a scenario where you wouldn't get it as you've made 20 years of contributions.
As for hoping Brexit won't happen that's forlorn imo, Corbyn is for Brexit so Labour wouldn't vote against, Tories will fall into line (just as many did campaigning for Remain). The repeal bill will be passed easily and A50 doesn't need a vote The legal challenge is a good earner for lawyers but pointless, can't succeed.
@kimbers I am for Leave as imo it gives the greater opportunity for my kids vs Remain
As for hoping Brexit won't happen that's forlorn imo, Corbyn is for Brexit so Labour wouldn't vote against, Tories will fall into line (just as many did campaigning for Remain). The repeal bill will be passed easily and A50 doesn't need a vote The legal challenge is a good earner for lawyers but pointless, can't succeed.
The realisation that the Brexit you all had such a hard-on for might just be slipping out of grasp. So close! but now you're realising it just might not happen after all. Must be tough for you 🙁
We import most of our food from Europe and will have no choice but to pay whatever we are to be charged for it.
@chicken we buy from the EU as it puts punative tariffs on food from outside in oreder to protect the French/Spanish etc. Once those are gone we can buy cheaper elsewhere. There was an example from the Referendum where the Germans are huge exporters of coffee but obviously grow zero. This is because EU import tariffs are low for coffee beans but very high for processed coffee. Thus African growers have to sell raw beans rather than being able to do the value added roasting etc and sell the finished product for a higher profit. Pure protectionism from the EU
@jamby, your kids already did well out of being in the EU, were able to go on ERASMUS exchange etc
EU passport meant they could move and work visa free accross Europe, with free healthcare etc
now denied to my kids
cheers
The realisation that the Brexit you all had such a hard-on for might just be slipping out of grasp. So close! but now you're realising it just might not happen after all. Must be tough for yo
Fourbanger we seem to be living in parallel universes ? 🙂 Everything these last few weeks and especially in Birmingham this week has been 100% in Leave's favour.
Rather than post on the May thread if anyone didn't see her Andrew Marr interview it was pretty thorough. It's on iPlayer
mattyfez - Member
The referendum was legal, yes, but given that referendums are basically really opinion polls, it was based on an internal Tory power struggle and a complete farce, that must call into question the legitimacy of it all.But do parliament still need to vote in favour of leave to rubber stamp it?
It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people. Yes, rubber stamp is just the formality.
Everything these last few weeks and especially in Birmingham this week has been 100% in Leave's favour.
I guess you just see what you want to see.
It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people.
Based on X Factor case law?
Our participation in Erasmus will continue, I have no doubt. Admittedly I could be totally wrong but I just don't see it on this issue. Appreciate my eldest working in Barcelona was stress free with freedom of movement but again I expect a visa/exchange system with Europe, it makes sense both ways. English is the business language of the world, why would Europeans want restrict their ability to learn it in an open and welcoming country that's far easier to access than say US, Canada or Australia.
We set the precedent of democracy. What do you want? Destroy democracy?fourbanger - Member
Based on X Factor case law?It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people.
we are definetly keeping the uk house , it is a good investment . we could sell it , buy a smaller uk property and be mortgage free and get a higher renting income . But we want to keep a big house .
i beleive the south east will be fairly unaffected by brexit . the rest of the uk will pay a much higher price .
So brexit means setting up our own trading agreements like TTIP or the WTO which means not being completely "sovereign". The Geneva convention covers most immigration that is sensationalised such as the jungle camp in Calais. So what is the difference and why should the U.K. get a better deal than the EU in new trading agreements.
So Jamba, you're telling me our food needs can be shipped here from across the world's oceans in the quantities we need, at a price comparable to what we pay now? Are you one of those who believe Africa should be growing food for the rest of the world rather than feed itself? Isn't China buying up most of the arable land in Africa as we speak? If only our forward thinking country had done the same then I wouldn't be worrying myself about spiralling food bills. Shame about all the starving Africans mind....
an open and welcoming country
You really think EU citizens are going to feel welcome? SERIOUSLY?
We could hardly do a less welcoming thing that hard Brexit, could we?
Our participation in Erasmus will continue, I have no doubt. --- with freedom of movement but again I expect a visa/exchange system with Europe,
The EU booted switzerland from ERASMUS when they tried to block free movement as well as being denied ERC and Horizon2020 funding grants, even sadder they no longer sit on the awarding bodies for these huge multi billion£ reserach grants that help shape science in Europe
That is a depressing future for British scientists who up until the referendum had huge influence in EU science projects (the doors have shut already, in many cases, EU scientists wont gamble on joint funding applications fr future grants) 🙁
We set the precedent of democracy. What do you want? Destroy democracy?
This is not democracy, the whole thing is based at best on ignorance, but most likely on lies. If the public vote on a referendum that is deliberately and obviously crazy because the extent of understanding is limited by tabloid headlines, and we all know who controls that.. It's an absurd situation.
I have family in spain, and I'm half tempted to leave the UK, most spanish people I've spoken to are completely perplexed about the result of the UK referendum, and so am I.
I'm a white british citizen by the way. My granddad died in WWII etc.
@chicken we buy from the EU as it puts punative tariffs on food from outside in oreder to protect the French/Spanish etc. Once those are gone we can buy cheaper elsewhere
Have you forgotten the earlier conversation about lambs already? That was a nice case demonstrating how [b]our[/b] sheep farmers, who export lamb/sheep meat across the EU, hugely benefit from the protectionism of those [i]"punitive tariffs"[/i].
What do you want? Destroy democracy?
I accept the result but I do hate this particular line of nonsense.
A [i]true[/i] democracy wouldn't disregard the opinion of 48% of voters would it?
A true democracy wouldn't disregard the opinion of 48% of voters would it?
Given a binary choice, yes. It's not that hard to grasp.
mattyfez - Member
This is not democracy, the whole thing is based at best on ignorance, but most likely on lies. If the public vote on a referendum that is deliberately and obviously crazy because the extent of understanding is limited by tabloid headlines, and we all know who controls that.. It's an absurd situation.
Individual opinions are just opinions and we all have 1001 opinions good or bad but the public have voted so that's that. It feels unreal but it is very real.
Unfortunately we cannot live for others nor them for us.I have family in spain, and I'm half tempted to leave the UK, most spanish people I've spoken to are completely perplexed about the result of the UK referendum, and so am I.
Nothing to do with who or what we are because the people have voted. The outcome of the vote must be respected.I'm a white british citizen by the way.
Unlikely. You are more likely to find that in developing countries. British are too civilised to do that.GrahamS - Member
Ochlocracy
@mrmo can't disagree with you. Yet fishermen were reckoned to be one of the stronger leave voting groups in Scotland
I'll just put this here
Dp
Unfortunately we cannot live for others nor them for us.
I'm a white british citizen by the way.
Nothing to do who or what we are because the people have voted
Indeed, so I am actively looking to leave the UK, it's becoming a horrible place.
Spain has better trails anyway
gordimhor - MemberYet fishermen were reckoned to be one of the stronger leave voting groups in Scotland
It's not too surprising tbh, the north sea fisheries undeniably got shafted by the CFP. I reckon responsibility for that lies squarely on the UK government not the EU- Heath chose to sell out the Scottish fleet to protect English and Welsh fisheries. But you can't blame people from those towns devastated by it for being bitter, and the CFP was also very flawed. Leaving the EU won't turn back time though.
the public have voted so that's that
Yes they have. But they voted to leave based on a combination of two things.
1. Not very clever, didn't bother to look into anything
2. Belived the media BS
Graham, lamb indeed. I never did get the seasonal breakdown or look at total UK production / consumption.
1. Not very clever, didn't bother to look into anything
2. Belived the media BS
The people I spoke too whilst out canpaigning had mostly made their mind up years ago that the EU was broken, they've been hearing about that from Labour and Tory for decades. People voted Leave as the EU is crap, even Remain's tagline was they would reform the EU from within which we all know simply wasn't going to happen. The politcal project is sacred
Indeed, so I am actively looking to leave the UK, it's becoming a horrible place.Spain has better trails anyway
They threw bananas at black England footballers and made monkey noises 😥
@gordi et all SNP do not want a referendum now, they know they'd probably loose again. They want to leverage Brexit to get a legally binding commitment to call a referendum at a point in the future of their choosing. You can't fault them for barefaced cheek / aiming for the moon. I'm sure you have a phrase for that.
Anyone from the leave side got any idea what brexit means yet? (hence the very accurate assumption that the campaign was lies)
Trade with eu - no idea
Freedom of movement - no idea
Pay to trade - no idea
Which laws the government wants to repeal - no idea
But still the champaign flows... (English of course none of that French muck)
The only bargaining position appears to be the old one two combo of don't they know who we are, and they wouldn't dare...
The people I spoke too whilst out canpaigning had mostly made their mind up years ago that the EU was broken, they've been hearing about that from Labour and Tory for decades.
And I guess like you they ignored facts, disputed them and just ignored what you didn't like. Nothing from the die hard leavers has done anything to convince me it's nothing but ideology and screw the consequences. The amazing belief that the UK will suddenly become integrated with the rest of the world and the eu will be begging us to sell them stuff.
Well Jamba you're undoubtedly the expert on barefaced cheek
Anyone from the leave side got any idea what brexit means yet?
Brexit means Brexit! didn't you hear? lol
I once thought the grass is greener far away but in reality they have same issues just different place. Most importantly you make yourself healthy and be happy with wherever you are. Other people can deal with their own themselves.mattyfez - Member
Indeed, so I am actively looking to leave the UK, it's becoming a horrible place.
mattyfez - Member
Yes they have. But they voted to leave based on a combination of two things.1. Not very clever, didn't bother to look into anything
2. Belived the media BS
I don't think media has done a lot to sway voters other than reaffirm their feelings so people voted for what make them happy. You can be poor but still happy and you can be rich yet miserable.
So let me get this straight, according to tory orthodoxy, the deficit and national debt that was supposedly going to crash the economy was a result of profligate labour spending on schools, hospitals etc and had to be reversed at all costs. Yet now the tories are happy to increase the deficit and national debt to protect us all from a tory-created fiasco which was the result of David Cameron not being able to shut up the rightwing idiots in his party?
Any of the tory usual suspects want to explain this seemingly contradictory position?
Who picked Pound get weaker in the Brexit not actually happened yet sweep?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37538459
Of course as we will be reminded amazing for exporters (as the FTSE rise suggests - analysis has it as export heavy) until the next invoice for raw materials hits.
Remember a weaker pound means more expensive bike parts!!
Less spending means less tax revenue (most essentials like food are VAT exempt)
Awaits the spin
or in pictures
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The Dr will see you now
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Well Jamba you're undoubtedly the expert on barefaced cheek
I am of the Vaxhaul Conference in comparison to the Premier League of Salmond and Sturgeon.
Trade with the EU - substantail with or wirhout tariffs / single market
Freedom of movement - definitely not
Pay to Trade - not sure what you mean. EU budget contribution will be zero
Which laws to repeal - to be decided, not a priority.
Champagne - we drink more than the French I believe and long may that contiue
Bike parts, Hope prices won't change much. I probably soend a few £100 pa, so thats £10-20 more in a year.
Trade with the EU - [s]substantail with or wirhout tariffs / single market[/s]Guess
Freedom of movement - [s]definitely not[/s]guess
Pay to Trade - [s]not sure what you mean. EU budget contribution will be zero[/s]guess
Which laws to repeal - [s]to be decided, not a priority.[/s]guess
You don't actually know, you hope and pray but you have no idea what a post EU britain will look like.
For reference the pay to trade is the Norway model (pay but no influence in case you have forgotten)
Freedom of movement has some things attatched like ERASMUS (which you claim we will keep)
Freedom of movement also works both ways (unless you subscribe to the need us more philosophy which might work unless a nation decides to take a ideological step not backed by facts and boot people out who they think are sucking their nation dry while in fact being contributors...)
Remember a weaker pound means more expensive bike parts!!
And petrol. That's going to go down well 🙂
within which we all know simply wasn't going to happen.
I can't believe you actually said that.
The 'everyone knows' fallacy.
Legal challenge in Northern Ireland, they want a Westminster vote.
Got to throw some money at the proles to stop them from figuring out who actually responsible for the chronic underinvestment in their communities (hint: it's not the EU). At least until the next election is sewn up anyway.Any of the tory usual suspects want to explain this seemingly contradictory position?
So it begins,
No money will be thrown at the proles though, it'll be loans for business and housebuilders at best. Which will just drive inequality wider as the builders squeeze every penny out of their 'affordable' housing and the CEO s do what they do best which is make sure that the company shares are as high as possible, whatever the cost, so when they cash out theyll be minted, regardless of what's actually good for the business.
So the productivity gap widens and we continue to have greater inequality than the rest of Europe.
Investment in infrastructure would be nice but, unless the Chinese pay(with garuantee huge payoffs long-term) it'll never happen.
While our very poor standards of basic education among the Plebs will only get worse, as more libraries and more and more money is taken away from councils and schools.
All of this is a problem now, Brexit and the loss to our GDP will just make it so much worse.
the CEO s do what they do best which is make sure that the company shares are as high as possible, whatever the cost, so when they cash out theyll be minted
It's not just that though. They are morally obliged to do the best for their shareholders, which is fine and right in my book. Within certain moral constraints of course.
But this is why essential services (including basic accommodation) should be publicly run.
Bike parts, Hope prices won't change much. I probably soend a few £100 pa, so thats £10-20 more in a year.
I think we import aluminium. And the oil needed for transporting everything is annoyingly priced in dollars. And the people doing the work will find that their petrol and food is more expensive.
And not everyone can afford to buy shiny parts from Hope, some of us have to slum it and buy from Shimano.
So it begins,
Don't be silly, johnny foreigner will just have to accept that we're better than them and do what we say. We're Great Britain, and if it wasn't for us they'd all be speaking german blah blah blah.
Seriously though, this is the stuff (amongy many other things) that's going turn brexit into a nightmare. If people think we're full now, what's it going to be like trying to repatriate all the expats once they can't afford to live out there after the EU hits them with all sorts of taxes, charges and levies that they don't have to pay now.
I see the pound sinks further, every time a Tory cabinet minister gives a speech it gets worse,
Buy XTR now, sell it for twice the price in April? 😉
repatriate all the expats once they can't afford to live out there after the EU hits them with all sorts of taxes, charges and levies that they don't have to pay now.
And the locals start harrassing them to leave.....
Currency. There is a strong narritive about why a strong country like Germany is supportive of the euromwith all its problems. The euro is effectively an "avsrage" of the exchange rates of individual countries if they had their own currencies. As all the other countries are weaker than Germany the euro fx rate comes out much lower than it wouod for a Deutsche Mark. Germany likes this as it wants a low fx rate to make it's good cheaper and a low fx rate always encourages people to spend more at home and foreigners to spend money in your country. Both are good for your economy.
A Westminster vote is going to be won easily for Brexit so legal challenges in NI etc are going to fail to achieve their objective even if they do prevail in the courts (highly unlikely). Also see Theresa May's Marr interview.
Crowdfunding lies campaign is a total waste of time. The £350m slogan and Take Back Control tagline was created well before Boris joined the campaign as despite the photo with the poster that doesn't mean Boris said ir or that a coirt wouod decide that statement was particularly influential amingst all the other issues. Farage wasn't part of Leave campaign, not sure what he is supposed to have lied about
You don't actually know
Indeed, no one knows the future for certain. We wouldn't have know the future had we voted Remain. I am firmly if the view that Remaining was the high risk option. I have to say Brexit is playing out as per my predictions/desrire.
Government now working to ensure British Troops are exempt from ECHR laws while on combat duty. International Law and Geneva Convention will apply
Graham, lamb indeed. I never did get the seasonal breakdown or look at total UK production / consumption.
Well feel free to try to find those figures - http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk was my source website - they don't change the fact that you were complaining about protectionism and [i]"European lamb protected by 40% tariif"[/i] while forgetting that protectionism includes us (for now)!
94.4% of our mutton & lamb exports were to the EU. Over seven times more than we imported from the EU. If we start paying that 40% tariff or sheep trade will undoubtedly suffer. Or are you are predicting the pound will fall so far against the Euro that we can charge 40% more and remain competitive?
Government now working to ensure British Troops are exempt from ECHR laws while on combat duty. International Law and Geneva Convention will apply
I feel I should remind you again that the ECHR is not the EU.
The referendum was [i]not[/i] about leaving the ECHR.
What the government are "working to ensure" is allowed within the framework of the ECHR, as the article says.
A Westminster vote is going to be won easily for Brexit
Care to break that down? You sound awfully sure. Especially of this:
I have to say Brexit is playing out as per my predictions/desrire.
I think it's FAR too early to tell yet. Come back in 5-7 years.
Anyway - is a commons vote likely to be a free vote I wonder? I wonder how many MPs will sell their principles out in the hope of preserving their majorities? It's democratic, but is it right?
The £350m slogan and Take Back Control tagline was created well before Boris ... a coirt wouod decide that statement was particularly influential amingst all the other issues.
Well you and other Brexiteers are still repeating that £350 figure on this thread - so clearly you think it had a great deal of influence.
And the locals start harrassing them to leave.....
Indeed. I can easily imagine a scenario which is going to result in a mass movement of hundreds of thousands or even upwards of a million people in the years post-brexit. Given the demographics of the British expats and the fact they are mostly property owners, where EU migrants here are younger and mostly not property owners, this will result in a net influx of (mostly retired) people to the UK. If people think the NHS and social care system is stretched now, they may be in for a bit of a shock.
94.4% of our mutton & lamb exports were to the EU. Over seven times more than we imported from the EU. If we start paying that 40% tariff or sheep trade will undoubtedly suffer. Or are you are predicting the pound will fall so far against the Euro that we can charge 40% more and remain competitive?
No, we can buy our lamb cheap from New Zealand without a punishing an unnecessary import tariff, and rewild our own hillsides to reduce flooding and enhance wildlife, just like George Monbiot says we should.
OK good you want to decimate the UK lamb industry while shipping food from nz? Genius
Excellent - a return to our green and pleasant land?
Will our 10,000 sheep farmers be employed as gardeners?
It's OK graham the increased suicide rate will help the NHS. Anyway it won't really matter because with some of these amazing ideas most people won't be able to afford to eat.
most people won't be able to afford to eat.
Nah, they can live wild in our newly repopulated forests.
rewild our own hillsides to reduce flooding and enhance wildlife, just like George Monbiot says we should.
That's about the most sensible thing I've seen you say on here. People should just eat less lamb though to be honest instead of transporting it across the globe.
Will our 10,000 sheep farmers be employed as gardeners?
They could retrain as foresters and wildlife managers. Far better than doing what they do now which amounts to laying waste to the countryside by preventing anything other than grass from growing.
Well you and other Brexiteers are still repeating that £350 figure on this thread - so clearly you think it had a great deal of influence.
Not me, I use £10bn pa or £190m per week. Also the contribution changes based on many factors including relative performance of UK economy and estimates of black market. Its been going up steadily for years.
Churchill would be horrified to see that we want to opt out of the ECHR that he had drawn up after the horrors of world war 2
Or is it OK for British soldier to torture chubby hotel clerks to death for fun
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baha_Mousa
Or drown children at gunpoint
Not me,
Apart from when I googled your username and 1st hit got you saying 350m/week and cut and paste it, page 252 of this thread I think, in sure many other times if I could be arsed to trawl through this black hole of the soul that this thread has become
You can do something about it you know
http://www.compulsivelyingdisorder.com/how-to-stop-habitual-lying/