Yeah and I will ask again where’s the austerity thread of 1500 pages?
Hmm the middle ground don’t seem so enraged about it.
As it covers the actions of multiple people and policies it's been covered all over the place, some of which will be in the TM thread among others. I'm sure the budgets were debated very strongly in here along with the middle class bribes that went in the last one.
My leave voting father-in-law explained to my son today that a 'no deal' is ok because that just means things carry on as they are now... i.e. we'll be staying in the EU!
He (my FIL not the 12 year old) genuinely has NO clue what no-deal actually means.
I think that's a very common misconception, that no deal means no change.
But Leave voters aren’t aren’t all a bunch of pig-ignorant thicko’s! It would be wrong to say that
You think there will be less austerity measures if we brexit!?
But I’m sure that Theresa said that was over 🙁
But she does like whoppers.
But Leave voters aren’t aren’t all a bunch of pig-ignorant thicko’s! It would be wrong to say that
Some people aren’t interested, they get the Sun in the morning and go to work.
I had a totally different view of the world when I read my grans daily mail an sun every lunch time as a kid 🙂
I think Noel Gallagher was right when he said it should never have gone to a referendum, we elect people who should know better to make choices for us. Well the man in question, Dave, had made the right choice, which was overridden by the referendum, but the elected representatives could still have saved the people from themselves by stating that the referendum was to close to justify change, but chose not to.
And now? I'm beginning to think things wouldn't be any worse if Noel's brother Liam were PM. Think about that, it really wouldn't be any worse if Liam Gallagher were in charge.
a friend of mine , leave voter , is a financial director in a small firm he owns with his family ; he has gone to uni and is fairly clued up on things .
Yet he told me this week I did not need to worry about no deal as everything will stay the same .........
I kindly explained to him the truth .
I was amazed at his lack of knowledge .
Some people aren’t interested, they get the Sun in the morning and go to work.
Well if they're not interested they should stay out of politics and not vote.
Well this is an interesting take on it. Of course it won't be long before the usual suspects pipe up and scream lefty unicorn loving, magic grandad supporting fantasist, but he has a point. Now I'm not saying brexit will solve the problems he rightly highlights, but if this neoliberal, back to the 1900s nightmare is to be fixed, I'm not sure being in the EU is very compatible with that.
I'd seen that, Daz. Where it falls down is that it both fails to recognise that the EU is doing a lot to protect its members from globalisation (but could do more) and that acting as a block of 500 million people is more effective in that than any of the individual sates ever would have been or would be now. Once Britian is out you'll sse just how "liberal" it has to be to compete.
Where it falls down is that it both fails to recognise that the EU is doing a lot to protect its members from globalisation
This may sound a bit 'what have the romans every done for us' but what exactly has it done? From where I'm standing the EU is a major pusher of globalisation and free markets. Granted it's not as bad as the American plutocratic sink-or-swim version, but being slightly better than the US on the social justice scale is hardly something to celebrate. What I will say is that I trust the EU far more than tory politicians to protect the interests of normal people, but really there must be a better way. Or is this the best it gets?
but really there must be a better way. Or is this the best it gets?
In a balance between retaining industry and employment and rights the EU is doing very well, find me somewhere doing a lot better and we can see where you want to go.
From working time to the environment, human rights and the way we have helped to bring those countries in need forward. When I was born 11 of the 28 were behind the iron curtain.
Well let's see if we get shafted post-Brexit (should that occur) once we no longer belong to a huge trading bloc. In the US businesses are currently suggesting that in future trade deal negotiations the UK will need to relax some (well quite a lot) of its food and safety standards to facilitate US imports.
Well let’s see if we get shafted post-Brexit
Who do you mean by 'we'? The people at the mercy of zero hours contracts, real terms shrinking wages and the sharp end of austerity have already been shafted. Funny that they seem to be the same people who have voted for brexit?
Add in the people working for Ford, JLR, Nissan, the workers who supported the EMA, the people who's jobs rely on imported materials among thousands of others.
We can certainly look forward to more rough sleepers and tents set up ad-hock in town centers.
But at least we will be free.
Free from what exactly, I don't know. From human rights?
This may sound a bit ‘what have the romans every done for us’ but what exactly has it done? From where I’m standing the EU is a major pusher of globalisation and free markets.
A few points as per my understanding:
Making environmental legislation is hard, because it costs money usually, and when companies are forced to spend money on cleaning themselves up, they are less profitable which makes them less competitive. By binding countries together economically and reducing trade barriers between them, the EU ensures that members trade a lot with each other; then it ensures that they all follow the same environmental legislation. So they can't undercut each other, and they are less likely to take their business elsewhere.
Take the example of Delphi, the fuel injector manufacturer mentioned way early in the thread. They can specialise in certain aspects of manufacturing, and partner with other specialists in other countries at little additional cost, and with less exposure to political changes such as trade wars. So a company in a particular company say, the heat-treatment place in Germany, has a very large market and can introduce economies of scale to do their stuff cheaper; likewise the injector manufacturer in the UK. This is why the US is such a powerful economy - companies are all bigger because the market is bigger. This is what's been happening in the EU. Therefore our stuff is cheaper for us to buy, and cheaper (and hence more competitive) for overseas customers. This boosts our manufacturing sector and improves quality of life for our citizens.
These in theory allow the EU to perform better in the current global economic set-up, however that set-up isn't necessarily the best. This sort of thing works well enough amongst equals, but where there's inequality free trade can make things much worse.
Free from what exactly, I don’t know. From human rights?
I came to the conclusion a while back that the patronising stereotype of racist idiots obsessed with Britain's greatness are a small minority of those who voted leave. To answer your question I think most of them wanted to be free from the endless drudgery and stress of trying to eke out a living within a system that has no interest in them.
Who do you mean by ‘we’?
The country as a whole.
It's still possible she is still playing for remain. Unlikely, but everything does fit still. Plan is to run down the clock increase the chaos so she can justify pulling the plug at the last minute.
Remainer pipe-dream, but would be a proper bombshell wouldn't it?
60000
Pipe Dream?
If it was these 2 in charge I'd have more faith
The country as a whole.
But if some have already been shafted and feel they have little left to lose, why would they care about what might happen to those who haven't yet reached those depths? Seems to me that when people protest at 'the country' being shafted by brexit, what they really mean is the 'the middle class'. We all know that the country as a whole won't be shafted as it's all relative.
But if some have already been shafted and feel they have little left to lose, why would they care about what might happen to those who haven’t yet reached those depths?
They will when they hit it.
Seems to me that when people protest at ‘the country’ being shafted by brexit, what they really mean is the ‘the middle class’.
Yep I've got some self interest in this, but I also know that if it hits me it will hit a lot more people and a lot harder. If you want to imply that people will only care if it effects them it's a bit harsh. Some of us see how wide the implications of this could be - the bitterness that came from the 80's is not something we want to repeat.
If you want to imply that people will only care if it effects them it’s a bit harsh.
Wasn't directed at you, more of a general observation. I may be wrong but I'm increasingly seeing brexit as a class issue. I come across very few working class people who are against it, and very few middle class who are for it. And a general derision of the former by the latter (witness the reaction to the Nissan news for example). That's almost certainly a function of where I grew up, where I now live and the people I hang around with, but it can't be a localised thing, and it's certainly in evidence on this thread.
the bitterness that came from the 80’s is not something we want to repeat.
I think that ship has sailed. The fallout from the 80s will look like a love-in by the time brexit is done and dusted. It started with calling brexit voters racists (which I admit I was guilty of too), then gammons, then idiots who deserve to be where they are. This is fairly familiar isn't it? How long before we have a 'brexit street' reality show on telly ridiculing the people of Sunderland who voted to be poor? I guess we can look forward to a decade of victim blaming and snobbery.
I’ve come to realise something else frightening about Theresa May. She is also totally complacent and has utterly misjudged the ERG nutters, and continues to do so.
She seems to see them as just the far end of a spectrum and so they might be appeased in some way. They are not. They are a traitorous, treacherous, enemy within who are hell bent on breaking this country so they can remake it to their (and their dark money supplying backers’) own benefit.
The likes of Davis, Duncan Smith, Fox (and that utter cretin) Grayling are just useful idiots to them.
May hasn’t got the awareness to recognize this cancer for what it is let alone confront it. Nor does she have the moral courage. Sad to say, but she is just a product of her environment and utterly bereft of any actual moral fibre.
How long before we have a ‘brexit street’ reality show on telly ridiculing the people of Sunderland who voted to be poor?
About as long as it takes before someone bungs them a few quid to further debase themselves. This is what they voted for. Exploitation and ridicule.
I come across very few working class people who are against it, and very few middle class who are for it.
All depends who you brush up against, I suppose.
Vist the Tory shires, where the comfortably off retired middle class voted Leave in their droves.
Vist London and the larger cities in the North, where the workers voted Remain in huge numbers.
dazh
But if some have already been shafted and feel they have little left to lose, why would they care about what might happen to those who haven’t yet reached those depths?
They're about to discover what they have left to lose.
I mean, look at it another way. I have more to lose than someone right at the bottom of the ladder, simply because I have more to start with. But that also means I can lose a lot more without it really doing me any massive harm, and certainly without coming close to where they already are- whereas losing even a tiny bit financially or in opportunity or job security or benefits support or healthcare could be devastating for them. Ironically this is no different from "we're all in it together", where we were supposed to think that not being able to buy that holiday home was as big a deal as £10 less in the pocket of an unemployed single mother of three
I can afford to have my head move closer to the water, because it's a long way up. I won't like it, but I won't drown, and I won't pretend there's any equivalence.
I come across very few working class people who are against it, and very few middle class who are for it.
I live in middle class land and there are a very high number of Leave voters. It is also a very high Tory voter area and the 2 are linked in many case.
When voting leave as a middle class person it is all about selfishness
When voting leave as a working class person it is all about despair
The continued selfishness of the one continues to add to the despair of the other.
I have some friends back in the UK who voted Brexit. When they visit me here in Spain and we talk to them about how they voted, in pretty much every case it seems that whatever "issue" it was that they felt passionate about and voted to change, will not change.
I'm sure there are other people in the UK who couldn't afford a trip to Spain, even a cheap one. And for them, nothing will change but maybe they feel that "at least they tried"?
in pretty much every case it seems that whatever “issue” it was that they felt passionate about and voted to change, will not change.
Oh they'll be changing alright. In big ways. All for the worse (unless you're one of the top 5%). And it'll change bloody fast, once these lot get to take the handbrake off
As discussed above I think a lot of people need to wake up and face the reality of who/what you're dealing with here. These people are disaster capitalists. David Davis has already let slip the other day what they really plan on doing.
Once free of the EU, they want to immediately slash tax for corporations and the rich, which will then necessitate taking a hatchet to our already struggling public services. Bye bye NHS - free at the point of delivery. Bye bye welfare state. kiss goodbye to all the public services you presently take for granted. At the same time they want to take a torch to workers rights and environmental controls, or anything they consider a restraint on the rich and powerful being able to what the hell they like
They want to take the form of capitalism that caused all the horrendous inequality in our society, then turbo-charge it!
If the people in 'left-behind' areas think they're marginalised now (and they are!) just wait until this lot really get going!
Thousands of folk in Motherwell and the rest of North Lanarkshire will have woken up this morning surprised that they became Middle Class overnight.
Thousands of folk in Motherwell and the rest of North Lanarkshire will have woken up this morning surprised that they became Middle Class overnight.
Only if they were upperclass the night before.
Once free of the EU, they want to immediately slash tax for corporations and the rich, which will then necessitate taking a hatchet to our already struggling public services. Bye bye NHS – free at the point of delivery. Bye bye welfare state. kiss goodbye to all the public services you presently take for granted. At the same time they want to take a torch to workers rights and environmental controls, or anything they consider a restraint on the rich and powerful being able to what the hell they like
This is just going to take longer under EU rules I'm loathe to say it but I can't imagine how this isn't going to happen anyway, as they find a way to circumvent lots of these protections now.
The country as a whole.
But if some have already been shafted and feel they have little left to lose, why would they care about what might happen to those who haven’t yet reached those depths?
Please read my whole post for context. I'm referring to the apparently simple task of setting up post-Brexit trade agreements. Simple if we roll over and accept whatever conditions our new overlords impose.
she can justify pulling the plug at the last minute.
One more time: "she" can't do anything; it needs a vote in Parliament for any action. There is no majority to "pull the plug". So we're stuck. May's "deal" or no deal.
If the people in ‘left-behind’ areas think they’re marginalised now (and they are!) just wait until this lot really get going!
Binners in "hitting nail on head" shocker !! 🙂
Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day DrJ 😉
What worries me is what happens once it becomes apparent to the 'left behind'* that what they were told would make their lives better - Brexit - is actually a project by 'the elite' to enrich themselves yet further while making the already dismal life chances of the poor considerably worse by turbo-charging inequality
I can only see it ending one way. Really really badly, and probably really violently, once the true level of lies and deceit become achingly apparent
* And if you want to see what the lives of the 'left behind' really look like, watch the thoroughly depressing Channel 4 programme Skint Britain about the rollout of Universal Credit in Hartlepool. It brings it home what true desperation is, and a belief that it can't possibly get worse. Its not hard to see how they would vote for anything to give them even a glimmer of hope and how they could be swayed by shysters like Boris Johnson promising unicorns and 'Sunny Uplands'
It is about to get worse for them though. Lots, lots worse.
I can't remember which journalist said it, but theres a quote along the lines of 'Thatcherism was unleashed by the right to decimate the working classes. Brexit is them coming back to finish the job'
But on a positive note, this wonderful oppurtunity to mske britain great is only costing us £800m a week, a snip at the price!
I thought it was supposed to save the UK 350m a week? How come it is the other way around? I feel lied to
I thought it was supposed to save the UK 350m a week? How come it is the other way around? I feel lied to
Which is why I'd love to be able to give the 'reward' of Brexit to those who actually voted for it.
Oh, what's that? It isn't an income, it's a massive gopping great loss?
OK - well, that's life for you, risk and reward and all that. Here's the bill.
As someone with an 8 year old Type 1 daughter (and i know there are a few of us with T1 kids or T1 on here), insulin manufacturers are having to stockpile up to 18 weeks of insulin supplies and they are the ones looking at alternative ferry routes in to the UK, so they are clearly taking the threat seriously..
And here was me thinking our Government always had the best interests of the people at heart (you'd think Theresa May at least might actually give a toss, though i guess she probably has her own private stash)..
Be afraid, be very afraid, because this article shows my point about the likes of Leadsom and May totally mis-reading what the ERG is, is probably accurate.
This is Liam Fox (Liam Fox of all people) starting - finally - to realise what the ERG is and what it is about. It is finally sinking in that the ERG are going to spike any deal other than the hardest of hard Brexits on any technicality that they can cook up. They are hell-bent on burning it down and re-building it to their own ends.
