post-election stats show that in actual fact he was boosted by millions of disenchanted ‘New’ Labour voters, who, when it came to it, couldn’t vote elseware or stay away.
Seems obvious to me. But then, that was me. But some of the "new" support (including mine) was because of a manifesto that was head and shoulders above the manifestos presented by the other parties… except on Brexit… but even then, in seats where it was a straight run off between Tory and Labour, the Tory policy still looked worse. The idea that those "new" voters supported Brexit because they voted Labour (80% supported Brexit lie) is what annoys me most, and is often trotted out by Labour MPs, sadly.
Still … I'm off to read more David Lammy speeches to stay sane…
I’m saying they are both boxed in by Brexit voters
This. Funny that now Corbyn is offering an olive branch to May everyone is howling. I hate to say it, but all of you going mental about what is basically a sensible approach to delivering a soft brexit, are basically just pissed off because you've finally realised brexit isn't going to be cancelled. Brexit is happening, get used to it. Whether it's in no-deal, hard or soft form is still to be seen, but you really need to take your heads out of the sand.
You are always missing the point that the further away from power you are, the plainer you can speak.
Yep, which is why all the armchair opposition leaders on this thread would be out within a week.
all of you going mental about what is basically a sensible approach to delivering a soft brexit
Corbyn wants Brexit. And he doesn't want "soft Brexit"… he whipped against staying in the Customs Union and against EEA. The only line he is treading is keeping gullable fools believing he is just be being pragmatic, while seeking to inact policies he has espoused for decades. He wants, and is very likely to get, a hard Brexit with a transition period. Now, we can all accept that it is Labour who first proposed that we would need a transition period (May's rebranding if it as an implementation period was just her way of agreeing to it without rubbing her MPs & members up the wrong way) but what comes after it…? Hard Brexit with some unicorn dust sprinkled on it… those in the Labour Party suggesting a soft Brexit have been sidelined just as much as those suggesting we get another vote. They're sitting at the table… but it's over there, by the toilets, under that light that doesn't work.
You are always missing the point that the further away from power you are, the plainer you can speak.
People "further away from power" in the Labour Party are there BECAUSE they have spoken plainly on Brexit. It's not the other way around. The front bench has long since been purged of anyone suggesting either a soft Brexit and/or another vote, despite them speaking for their members, voters and constituencies.
@slowoldman kicked onto a better path imo. They have now both agreed that the withdrawal agreement can't be re-opened so the backstop stays. In my mind, this basically means that ERG and DUP are stuffed and May has to compromise to get Labour on board to get her deal through.
I agree with DazH, peoples vote wont happen (and if it did i think the outcome would be bad) so a compromsie soft brexit is as good as we are goin to get.
Yep, which is why all the armchair opposition leaders on this thread would be out within a week.
At least some of us might try to lead, Corbyn is holding onto the title of leader without performing the duties that come with the title.
He is leading. Some people just haven't woken up to how he is leading, and where to.
I think Brexit of some form is inevitable and has been ever since the referendum result was announced. there has been momentum built around a 2nd ref but there hasn't ever been much love amongst Labour MPs ( and even less for the Tories)
Even if Labour had a whole hearted 2nd reffer as leader I don't think they would be able to command enough support in their party to have a hope of winning from a minority position in Parly. And they would be hammered in the popular press.
I'm getting a bit like DrJ - basically tired off it all and resigned to the inevitable and the shitty consequences that follow.
I'm going to another session with Hilary Benn in a couple of weeks - see what he has to say as chair of Brexit committee and a Labour MP. But I have a feeling it will just be depressing.
I'm surprised that our govt is surprised that a powerful trading bloc that is going to be our competitor in a few weeks is starting to talk like a powerful competitor to a minor one.
What did they expect?
"Yes bwana" while knuckling the forelock?
Even greater humiliation awaits when they try negotiating with the USA without the EU behind them.
And Putin is pissing himself laughing...
I hate to say it, but all of you going mental about what is basically a sensible approach to delivering a soft brexit, are basically just pissed off because you’ve finally realised brexit isn’t going to be cancelled.
I hate to break it to you, but the olive branch he offered includes staying in the customs union, yet he whipped his party against that very thing at a time when he could really have worked for a softer brexit. His olive branch isn't an offer to May, it is just another stunt to pull the wool over the eyes of his supporters, and it is surprising that they are still falling for such obvious trickery.
Is anyone else forming the impression that dazh might actually be a 'gillet jaune' incarnation of THM?
So Donald is telling a slightly different tale to TM...
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1093535048454860800
Do people think that a 2nd reffer led Labour party would be able to win a 2nd ref vote in Parly. Or just that it would make a load of people feel less disenfranchised, give a better focus for protest and put Labour in a better position when the full Brexit shit storm hits?
One of those, yes. Either would been better than the deceit of the last year or so, wouldn't it?
It's gone past the point where a referendum is an option though… hasn't it?
[ don't mention the table ]
Well, Magic granddad may have come through, his letter to May seems to have met approval with the EU..
The European Parliament’s Brexit chief has welcomed Jeremy Corbyn’s new EU exit plan and endorsed calls for a cross-party conensus in Westminster to prevent a no-deal.
A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union. This would include alignment with the union customs code, a common external tariff and an agreement on commercial policy that includes a UK say on future EU trade deals. We believe that a customs union is necessary to deliver the frictionless trade that our businesses, workers and consumers need, and is the only viable way to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland. As you are aware, a customs union is supported by most businesses and trade unions.
Close alignment with the Single Market. This should be underpinned by shared institutions and obligations, with clear arrangements for dispute resolution.
Dynamic alignment on rights and protections so that UK standards keep pace with evolving standards across Europe as a minimum, allowing the UK to lead the way.
Clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programmes, including in areas such as the environment, education, and industrial regulation.
Unambiguous agreements on the detail of future security arrangements, including access to the European Arrest Warrant and vital shared databases.
The only Labour test seemingly dropped is 'delivers the exact same benefits of EU membership.
By implication "A" CU & SM also means ECJ and FoM, plus continued contributions.
"By implication" suggests the use of logic… I admire your optimism… if either party leader says that FoM can continue… they have my support, it would open up the chance of a close relationship with the rest of Europe as a non-EU member… it's the compromise that should have been the centrepoint of a plan back in 2016, to respect a 52:48 result.
Oh, and you can "welcome" a contribution, without agreeing with it, or suggesting that it adds up to much.
Is anyone else forming the impression that dazh might actually be a ‘gillet jaune’ incarnation of THM?
Ha ha!. For the record I'd like nothing more than for the whole bloody thing to be cancelled but it doesn't change the reality that it's happening. We can either moan to eachother about how unfair it is that our middle class bubble has been punctured by a horde of white trash gammons, or we can actually address why they've felt the need to do so.
Did anyone read the guardian story about the "lead by donkeys" billboard campaign. I know it is a story that has been knocking around a few weeks now, but the bit that struck me, was that after raising the money to go nationwide, that the large advertising companies would not run their posters claiming they were too political. Th same companies that wee happy to run ukip propaganda about Romanians flooding into the UK, decided to draw the line at political accountability.
Just goes to show how the game is rigged, public school educated retired investment banker, no problem run any vile racist propaganda you want. Few working class blokes holding politicians to account, nah **** off and learn your place.
Thankfully some smaller companies are running the posters.
Close alignment with the Single Market. This should be underpinned by shared institutions and obligations, with clear arrangements for dispute resolution.
SM alignment is not quite the same thing as SM membership. But probably as close as we can get without having to fully embrace FoM in future. But yes, would probably mean the dreaded ECJ (or some proxy) gets to oppress us from now on.
It's still a shit sandwich, but some of the shit has been mixed with artificial flavourings and colourings so it looks a bit nicer.
But, frankly, I think something along these lines will be as good as it gets for the UK. I don't support a 2nd ref, because frankly, I think the loons would win it again, and possibly by more, and outright remaining seems a remote possibility.
I have actually been offered a new job within the global company for whom I currently work, which would be a worldwide role. It's a good job anyway, but I'm thinking that it's the best possible Brexit insurance I can currently get.
We can either moan to eachother about how unfair it is that our middle class bubble has been punctured by a horde of white trash gammons, or we can actually address why they’ve felt the need to do so.
Any form of Brexit will be a pyhric victory for said gammons though.
Brexit has already stopped the Tories balancing the deficit, so their justification for austerity stays.
The next 5+? Years of trade talks will suck up all the focus of government, (who thinks brexiteers have a plan for the next phase beyond making money from kickbacks?) leaving the countrys actual problems to fester , with the poorest suffering the most.
We can either moan to eachother about how unfair it is that our middle class bubble has been punctured by a horde of white trash gammons, or we can actually address why they’ve felt the need to do so.
But WHERE exactly could anyone with ‘more than a bit of a tan’ be deported to? Even leaving aside the fact that a lot of the people the gammons would like to deport were born here, it is still a difficult expectation to meet.
kelvin
Subscriber
You mean wake you up once it’s started? Yes? The idea that the reorganisation of the UK economy, and our arrangements with the rest of the world, will be “over” anytime soon is a fantasy. We’re about to hit the “burn it down” stage that is just a starting point for a fight over what these countries are going to become. Just the starting point.
Utterly depressingly true.
There is going to be a costly fight in the years to come over which direction the UK heads. I predict the breakup of the UK for a start. This is largely an English issue imposed on the whole of the UK.
Corbyn won't win immediately after Brexit, last time a recession happened the British public voted for their own austerity. It'll happen again, swing voters will vote for cuts after the Tories scare them over ballooning public debt and the young will be angry with Corbyn. That will leave Corbyn with Northern voters who haven't been poached by UKIP and the inner London vote.
Just reading on Twitter the predictable responses of the Corbyn fan club/labour membership to Owen Smiths interview today
It seems like they’re really revelling in making the Labour Party as absolutely and totallly unelectable as it was in 1980. And their messiah is certainly doing a great job on their behalf!
It’s like some mad political death cult
Yeah, Corbs is the Tories insurance policy for Brexit - that’s why they got him elected!
Always been suspicious how Corbs used the Stop the War campaign to get rid of Blair, and then they did F*** all to stop the carnage in Syria. Almost as if he’s another one of Putins useful idiots.
Ha ha!. For the record I’d like nothing more than for the whole bloody thing to be cancelled but it doesn’t change the reality that it’s happening. We can either moan to eachother about how unfair it is that our middle class bubble has been punctured by a horde of white trash gammons, or we can actually address why they’ve felt the need to do so.
If you addressed the reasons why they are unhappy, they'd call you a libtard socialist.
You guys are still forgetting half the Labour front bench and 100mps have said publicly they will vote against any attempts to delay or stop brexit. Corbyn is as boxed in as May by his own parliamentarians. No other labour leader could do anything different.
If Corbyn comes out for a second referendum he will lose any vote on it - thats clear. Tories would be whipped against it, a few would rebel. Labour would be whipped for it and dozens would rebel and half his front bench would resign including many of the so called moderates.
Bowglie- same reason as he won’t condemn the regime in Venezuela as the oil-rich ‘socialist’ country crumbles into civil war, poverty and starvation.
My enemies enemy is my friend in Corbyn’s simplistic 1970’s worldview.
He’s a useful idiot for Putin, the hard right of the Tory party and all manner of other thoroughly unpleasant entities just through his sheer pig-headed stupidity
I wonder if one of the main problems in Britain is the right wing press, and until someone has the balls to say that they’re only supporting the Tories and Brexit so that their multimillionaire owners can keep avoiding paying tax...and dodge Leveson2.
Unfortunately, I can’t see any high profile opposition MP’s standing up and using parliamentary privelidge to call out the tax dodging bas***ds in the press and Tory party.
He’s a useful idiot for Putin, the hard right of the Tory party and all manner of other thoroughly unpleasant entities just through his sheer pig-headed stupidity
Unfortunately for the country, I think you’re right. I’ve always had the feeling that he’s just another pig-headed personality cult dictator that’ll have to be dragged kicking and screaming from the leadership.
We wouldn’t have the problem of the likes of the Daily Mail if it wasn’t able to tap into a rich seam of ignorance, prejudice, self-righteousness, stupidity, racism, xenophobia and pettiness.
Unfortunately there is a rich seam of all the above to unite their fellow arseholes. And ultimately, that is what we are talking about here. Arseholes.
Owen Smith on channel 4 news now saying Corbyn is enabling a xenophobic, nativist, racist right-wing Brexit that betrays every single Labour Party value
Bang on!
I hope this marks the beginning of the party membership finally seeing through Corbyn’s Brexiteer stance, his MPs growing a pair and doing something to stop it/him
NO chance of the labour MPs growing a pair - 100 of them are insisting that brexit goes ahead and half the front bench will resign if corbyn supports a second referendum or attempts to stop / delay brexit
If corbyn really wanted a hard brexit would he be pushing for this softest of soft leaves? Its the only position that he can carry most of his MPs along with.
Do you really want to see a labour party split with 100+ mps voting against the labour whiop if Labour propose a second referendum? Make no mistake - thats what would happen.
Its the spineless nincompops that are labour MPs that are the problem here
dammit, its time we got organised and rebelled against this kind of shenanigins
lets go and form a protest queue in the great british tradition
I see Labour are polling really well again today.
Always been suspicious how Corbs used the Stop the War campaign to get rid of Blair, and then they did F*** all to stop the carnage in Syria.
So what was leader of the opposition Corbyn supposed to do in Syria?
I hate to defend the clown but would rather reproach him for not doing things he could do than things he can't do.
Edit: caught out by the page lag again, this is now water under the bridge.
Again... where are you getting these stats from about who will and won’t rebel/resign?
Jezza talks the talk, but when push comes to shove - every time - he whips his MPs to enable a hard Brexit
hate to say it, but all of you going mental about what is basically a sensible approach to delivering a soft brexit, are basically just pissed off because you’ve finally realised brexit isn’t going to be cancelled. Brexit is happening, get used to it. Whether it’s in no-deal, hard or soft form is still to be seen, but you really need to take your heads out of the sand
You speak absolute sense.
The hysteria on here rather than then pragmatism is bewildering.
I'm looking forward to the tiny centrist breakaway party of Owen Smith and the Yvette 'vote for more wars' cooper.
Good luck with that.
Isn't there another thread about Corbyn specifically if you want to discuss Syria etc not just Brexit
May and her mates must be mighty relieved by the fact that Corbyn personally seems to be taking a large chunk of the blame for the Brexit disaster created and continuously mishandled by the Tories.
half the Labour front bench
Because anyone publicly saying what needs saying about brexit has been kicked off the front bench. The Labour back benches is full of talented MPs ready to take their place in a shadow cabinet.
Corbyn is not in a corner, reluctantly supporting Brexit, he wants Brexit. Hard. Anyone supporting a Soft Brexit, or another vote, has been sidelined by his team. Portraying him as at the mercy of the very people he has chosen to surround himself with, because they won't question his approach, is grade A bullshit.
At least two thirds of Labour MPs are strongly pro-remain. So where you get 100 of them resigning I’ve no idea
Feel free to enlighten me
Just about everyone outside the inner cabal/front bench think, correctly, that Corbyn is a brexiteer clown, so who’s going to resign?
Just seen on Channel 4 news that Tony Lloyd is shadow Northern Ireland Secretary. Who knew? Hear that? That really is the sound of the bottom of a barrel being scraped. Can’t be long before he runs out of similar minded 70’s relics to support his Brexit stance and surround himself with in his Islington echo chamber.
All his backbenchers think he’s a **** and can’t wait to see the back of him so they can try and drag the party back into the 21st century instead of 1973, and that includes being pro EU instead of being in some Bennite backwater
So back on tpic, May got nothing out of Junker, zilch. Which is exactly what he was mandated by the 27 to give her. The only stuff they're talking about is non-binding stuff outside the agreement(deal) offered and refused by parliament.
lets go and form a protest queue in the great british tradition
Yes lets. After you.
After you…
