He suggests that this is a series of unlikely events… where as many of us suggested that it would go this way from the moment it was clear that the LibDems would be punished for the coalition (not the Tories) and that Farage would always be on the TV/Radio more often than all the Tory cabinet put together.
A good Brexit is impossible.
Therefore stop Brexit. Sooner or later someone is going to have to tell the gammons the truth.
I think you forget that for a great many people on the otherside of the argument brexit, any brexit, is a good brexit.
They need be told the truth certainly but that there is no good brexit is as much a lie as far as there concerned as 350 million to the NHS is to you. It needs to be made apparent it's going to hurt and there won't be any miracles but frankly that's not the same thing as saying it's "bad"
He suggests that this is a series of unlikely events…
Well it was to those people who never speak to anyone outside their own echo chamber and now persist in thinking it's all "gamons" who voted brexit so they don't have to change their opinions either.
I think you forget that for a great many people on the otherside of the argument brexit, any brexit, is a good brexit.
In the majority of cases they only think it is. These people can now only be classified as ‘thick’.
There are only three basic classes of people who still want Brexit.
1. Political wreckers. This includes, to a certain extent, Corbyn. They want a ‘damned good shake up’ so that more extreme politics can become acceptable. This mostly means the far right, but there are some for whom it means the far left.
2. Profiteers. From the short-term speculators to the ‘entrepreneurs’ gathering funds to ‘step into the breach’ now or just circling the NHS like a hyena, a lot of already rich and well-connected people stand to make a killing. But when I say ‘a lot’ I mean ‘too many’. In the grand scheme of things they are small in number but big in influence.
3. Peckerheads. No further explanation needed.
In this childish new world I actually have a feeling that if a politician came along and actually said this stuff, stopped Brexit and then mooned Tommy Robinson in public they’d serve at least two full terms. Got to be worth a shot.
They need be told the truth certainly but that there is no good brexit is as much a lie
What does it look like?
How do we get it?
Who is best to get it for us?
+
Can it be done by March?
Or should we revoke A50 and then get on with preparing for it?
What does it look like?
To me there is no good option, they're all bad for various reasons. What ever it looks like it won't look like we were told during the referendum.
For many leavers it looks like no ecj, no eu parliament, no vast sums of money being sent to Brussels (regardless of what then happens to it) and so on, it could look like unicorns or it could look like the hardest brexit possible. The good/bad bit isn't for many people job security, business growth, inflation etc its out, pure and simple.
How do we get it?
Just out isn't hard
Who is best to get it for us?
Can it be done by March?
Anyone and yes because assuming we don't revoke/delay article 50 it will happen at the end of March regardless.
Or should we revoke A50 and then get on with preparing for it?
I'd love us to (though i imagine we might rapidly find our rights to submit article 50 being changed and that any deal available is much worse next time around so prepping might be a bit difficult)
The problem is we by and large think it's just shouting louts who still want brexit, it's really really not, and a lot of those people do just want to leave. They see limited or no benefit, they live in areas which already have high unemployment, poor education, no social mobility and so on. They're not stupid they're just already live the reality your worried brexit will bring.
They’re not stupid they’re just already live the reality your worried brexit will bring.
Wrong, I’m afraid. Knock another ten percent off, then they’ll be living it.
And before anyone says ninety percent of nothing is still nothing, people who have ‘nothing’ in the main actually do still get ‘something’. In many cases it is still not enough (genuinely), but their standard of living and prospects will still likely take a hit.
Brexit is not ‘sticking it to the man’.
They see limited or no benefit, they live in areas which already have high unemployment, poor education, no social mobility and so on. They’re not stupid they’re just already live the reality your worried brexit will bring.
And I’d like to take issue with that from a different angle as well. I’m pretty sure that we don’t have nearly 17m people of working age who are unemployed and willing to torch everything to start again.
Your generalisations are just as easy to pick holes in as mine.
It would have been interesting if, prior to the referendum, people who were going to vote ‘Leave’ were told that they and they alone could keep any benefit of Brexit (divided up equally amongst them), but they would also have to saddle any cost (again divided up equally), what would they want to do? No deferment allowed - would have to work for nothing until debt ‘paid’.
The trouble with all this frothing about unicorns, cake and eat it etc is that it comes from the belief that brexit isn’t possible and should be reversed.
No it's not the belief that Brexit isn't possible, it is. It's that Brexit is stupid.
I’m not going to argue with that as I pretty much agree. However this is also in complete denial of the fact that the people have voted and it needs to be enacted.
No that's nonsense. The referendum was no better than an opinion poll, canvassing the opinions of people who by and large had no idea of the topic.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll, canvassing the opinions of people who by and large had no idea of the topic.
Yes, but a huge number of people don't agree with that.
I’d rather we remain, but if the process was a sound one, I’d accept the wishes of ‘the people’. This process so far has not been sound…
I think it's more important that the result of the "sound process" demonstrates that it makes sense to leave the EU. If that proof was forthcoming maybe I would change my mind, though it would take more than pure economics to do that.
They see limited or no benefit, they live in areas which already have high unemployment, poor education, no social mobility and so on. They’re not stupid they’re just already live the reality your worried brexit will bring.
Absolutely this. I've had quite a few encounters with working class brexiters and have been told in no uncertain terms that they're sick of being lectured by middle class w*nkers who are more worried about their house prices than the employment prospects of the working class. Do we really think they're bothered that our pampered kids won't be able to do seasonaire jobs in French ski resorts? Or that it's going to be more difficult for some of us to retire to a spanish beach? Of course they don't. And they couldn't care less about import tariffs, the loss of passporting rights to the city of London, the border with Ireland or any of the other distant and irrelevant things that have very little impact on them. I have no idea how this is all going to pan out, and whether it will be as bad as every assumes it will be, but I'm pretty sure that if we carry on patronising and ignoring the people who voted for brexit, there'll much worse things down the line.
Yes, but a huge number of people don’t agree with that.
That's cool. If they all agree on what we should do now as a country, we can crack on with it.
Oh, but if they're "middle class w*nkers", then let's just ignore them and move on.
That's the issue with democracy - you can only do what the electorate will let you do...
Time to ask them then…
Not the "middle class w*nkers" though… let's check people's shoes when they turn up to vote. Anyone without holes in their soles gets turned away. Unless they inherited a house with wings from their parents, or spouses' parents. We should listen to toffs and proper workers only from now.
That's what I've been saying all along.
I presume you mean "ask them"… I'm increasingly thinking that the clock has been run down and killed that option. 71 days. The window to ask for A50 delay for a referendum is about to slam shut, if it hasn't already. The con is nearly complete.
A50 needs revoking, or we’re on the way out, and we’re manifestly not ready. It'll soon be the only option the UK has.
A50 needs revoking, or we’re on the way out
Of course we're on the way out, that is what people voted for or have you only just realised that?
People voted to Leave, we got that. It's people who did vote Leave who are most up in arms about how we leave. When we Leave in the wrong way (as they see it), with the wrong results, do you think they'll be thanking those that carry it out?
Dianne Abbott is on QT. I expect to be fully reassured by a clear and coherent explanation of Labours position expressed in a reasoned and articulate manner
Of course we’re on the way out, that is what people voted for or have you only just realised that?
What makes you think the people (badly or totally uniformed) should have the final say?
A50 needs revoking, or we’re on the way out, and we’re manifestly not ready. It’ll soon be the only option the UK has.
May is clearly running down the clock so it's her deal or nothing. Can she force that?
We're pretty close to even her deal being unachievable in the time left, even if she could build support for it. Even that would need a new exit date. Rather than beg for an extension… we should take control of the timetable and unilaterally revoke A50.
True but as we are able to look at more than one think at once we can look at both. It’s possible to address both topics.
The fact that May has at least spoken to most party leaders except Corbyn I feel is further making him look like an idiot.
It’s just been pointed out on QT that it’s a bit rich Corbyn saying that no deal should be taken off the table when he’d three line whipped his MPs to vote for putting it very much on the table in the first place, against most of their wishes.
And now that stupid beardy **** has just made me agree with Isabel Oakeshott
I feel violated
The fact that May has at least spoken to most party leaders except Corbyn I feel is further making him look like an idiot.
TBH, why is no deal still there, why won't she rule it out? Oh yeah because she will loose her next no confidence vote to be replaced by a lunatic from the ERG
Anyone watching QT - massive cheers for no deal - be afraid
Anyone watching QT – massive cheers for no deal – be afraid
That's because opinion is hardening against incompetent MPs and government. The referendum was a revolt against the political class and the people they mostly represent. Hardly a surprise that the same people now are revolting again. And some on here want wonder why the labour party won't campaign to reverse the referendum result.
TBH, why is no deal still there, why won’t she rule it out? Oh yeah because she will loose her next no confidence vote to be replaced by a lunatic from the ERG
She will not lose ANY no confidence vote. She could be a serial baby killer for all the ERG care as long as she is not a Marxist.
I am not saying Corbyn has to alter his opinions on whether a no deal should be taken of the table, but at least sitting in the same room to discuss this and other issues is politically symbolic, rather than pass notes across the desk.
Anyone watching QT – massive cheers for no deal – be afraid
QT aims to pick a very balance/split audience on issues, don't think it's overly representative of the population as a whole, some of the areas near there were very high leave vote % in the referendum.
I am not saying Corbyn has to alter his opinions on whether a no deal should be taken of the table, but at least sitting in the same room to discuss this and other issues is politically symbolic, rather than pass notes across the desk.
More than 1 way to do something, now the PM has to defend why she is keeping No Deal as an option despite saying it's suicide.
**
Edit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46910535
Reserve military officers could be called up for a year of service as part of government plans for a no-deal Brexit.
It comes after the defence secretary said 3,500 troops were "held at readiness" to help if the UK crashes out of the EU.
The official call-up order was made in a ministerial statement on Thursday.
****
Anyway chances of her putting anything different to parliament on the next hearing? 5%? Chances of her taking any kind of notice of JC 2%?
This whole thing at the moment is posturing and symbolism.
Which is exactly why somebody has decided to go with blackmailing the speaker
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46913477
Such is the anger with the Speaker at senior levels of government, it has been suggested he could be blocked from getting a peerage when he retires.
Ministers are furious at what they see as John Bercow's "bias" during Commons debates on Brexit.
The move would break a tradition dating back 230 years, that former Commons speakers are automatically offered a seat in the House of Lords.
A Cabinet source said: "It's a good job peerage nominations are in our gift.
"I'm sure we'll be thinking carefully about which individuals we would choose to elevate to the House of Lords."
The source told me: "I can't imagine we would look favourably on those who've cheated centuries of procedure."
Yeah I know I grew up in one.
Poor old Diane should have been put out to grass a while back!
In the present Jezza inner sanctum (those who don’t think he’s a useless idiot - the minority) she’s what passes for a political heavyweight.
She’s not even a half-wit! A quarter-wit? An eighth-wit? Corbyn wants to be prime minister but how could anyone trust the judgment of someone who thinks she should be Home Secretary?
I wouldn’t let her run at a stand at a car boot sale, never mind the countries legal system
Ladies and gentlemen.... the Labour Party.... courtesy of North London
She's a smart cookie, but poor at defending policy on Tv/radio (even when policy makes sense).
A smart cookie. Hmmmmmm....
She’s a total ****-wit! She’s the yin to Andrea Leadsoms yang
If she ever got in a position of power (hardly likely) she’d make Chris Grayling look like a towering intellectual giant and a picture of Germanic efficiency
Whenever I see Diane Abbott on tv I picture Malcolm Tucker screaming. Why do they still allow her to go on tv?
I loved the comment from the guy in the audience "the only thing that scares me more than brexit is the thought of Diane Abbott as home secretary."
Most of us are equally terrified of that prospect
She stands as the elephant in the room on opinion on Jezzas judgement
It’s right up there with these appointments...
Corbyn has about 40 MPs left who haven’t previously openly declared that he’s an idiot ( they’re right, obvs) so Dianne is about as good as it likely to get*
Vote Labour!
* insert own scraping of the bottom of the barrel reference here
athgray
The fact that May has at least spoken to most party leaders except Corbyn I feel is further making him look like an idiot.
Really? Her "talks" would have been a joke even if she'd tried to convince the person who could possibly have the appetite and the ability to change the result, rather than avoiding him. Instead, she went to people who'd already made their demands, and told them she was seeking a compromise but they couldn't have any of the things that they wanted. The only difference is that Corbyn didn't get an hour of his day wasted.
"dangeourbrain
Subscriber
I think you forget that for a great many people on the otherside of the argument brexit, any brexit, is a good brexit."
But not a majority. There's a reason the Leave campaign chose to sell their wares with lies, they knew better than anyone that if they told the truth for one day their campaign would fall apart.
It's not enough to get loads of brexiteers to agree on one particular brexit- you have to get damn nearly all of them to agree, or their majority becomes a minority.
Absolutely this. I’ve had quite a few encounters with working class brexiters and have been told in no uncertain terms that they’re sick of being lectured by middle class w*nkers who are more worried about their house prices than the employment prospects of the working class. Do we really think they’re bothered that our pampered kids won’t be able to do seasonaire jobs in French ski resorts? Or that it’s going to be more difficult for some of us to retire to a spanish beach? Of course they don’t. And they couldn’t care less about import tariffs, the loss of passporting rights to the city of London, the border with Ireland or any of the other distant and irrelevant things that have very little impact on them. I have no idea how this is all going to pan out, and whether it will be as bad as every assumes it will be, but I’m pretty sure that if we carry on patronising and ignoring the people who voted for brexit, there’ll much worse things down the line.
None of it will be solved by leaving the EU.
Anyone who still fails to understand the constraints on Corbyn from internal labour party politics needs to have a look at the guardian online
Headline piece that if he comes out for a second referendum half the front bench will resign
Three labour supporting commentators with three contradictory pieces. Must support second ref, must not support second ref, only leave will solve things
It's fine… he can keep triangulating, and the result of that will be Brexit, which, purely coincidental, is what he spent most of his political life espousing.
Doesn’t look like the hive mind of STW have any solutions either....we is truly f....d!
Solutions have been posted for hundreds of pages. They just don't fit it with the world view of those leading our two biggest parties, that is all.
Anyone got a non-FT link to the news that EU trade deals with RoW can't/won't be rolled over when we leave, after all (as we said)? Time to start properly bricking it Britain.