Corbyn is no doubt to blame for that…
Well he could have whipped against as opposed to for the time table way back when. He could have opposed the three weeks to come back to parliament back when it would have been binding. So no not his fault but he's had plenty of opportunity to try and mitigate it so far from blameless. At this point it's a lot like Pontius Pilate washing his hands.
Quite what anyone expected I'm not sure. Unless she comes back with something singularly abhorrent on Monday and losses they subsequent no confidence vote and is replaced by grieve or the like relying largely on support from labour and a few like minded conservatives this is just going to trundle on until March when we'll end up with May's deal as the least worst option.
Trouble is that you have no one with influence to lead the Remain side.
Remain marches and protest should take place every week.
Having no desire to watch one, let alone all of those, could you sumarrise please?
Complete cake-and-eat-it cloud-cuckooland nonsense, that would be laughed out of Brussels in 5 minutes and we’d be right back where we are now
It's a statement of what Labour wants. Same as when you go to buy a car you have a statement of what you want - heated seats, parking sensors etc. Doesn't mean that you will get them. Whereas the Tories show up to the dealership not sure if they want an Alfa or a Ford Transit
Whereas the Tories show up to the dealership not sure if they want an Alfa or a Ford Transit
The Tories have been very clear - they want something sporty, like a Porsche 911, but with the load carrying capacity of the Transit. And heated seats. And a free child seat for BoJo.
It’s a statement of what Labour wants. Same as when you go to buy a car you have a statement of what you want – heated seats, parking sensors etc. Doesn’t mean that you will get them. Whereas the Tories show up to the dealership not sure if they want an Alfa or a Ford Transit
The Labour list of wants is no more or less possible.
To use your own analogy they want a hot hatch with 7 seats, top speed of 200mph, 90mpg and so on, they haven't spoken to the dealer yet because he's busy with the Tories who want a transit van AND an alpha Romeo but can only pay for one and hope if they drag it out long enough the dealer will just give in. Meanwhile Labour are pointing out to anyone who will listen the ridiculousness of the Tory request whilst wondering if they should also ask for a tail lift on their 7 seat fiesta.
The Labour list of wants is no more or less possible.
It may not be realistic as an outcome, but at least it doesn't contain mutually exclusive elements.
End to FoM, but keeping EEA quality Single Market access.
Outside the EU's Customs Union, but having a say in the EU's trade deals with other third countries.
Cake
And
Eat
It
None of those things is mutually exclusive though Kelvin, they just require the things the EU say we can only have in the EU to be made available to us outside of the EU. That's nothing at all like the Tories who want to be in and out at the same time.
?
Ah, sarcasm, I hope.
I got the impression that the Labour demands were simply a tool to castigate the Tories with. If they gained power, I'd expect them to come back with either/or options and let parliament vote on them.
I don't think they'd just wander in demanding things that they know are impossible then simply scratching their heads when they don't get them. Even May wasn't that stupid in the end.
Sorry i was hoping the letters on my post would self animate to show them dripping with sarcasm.
Sorry, hard to tell when people are being serious when defending this kind of "logic". I got it a few seconds after posting. My edit will show up eventually…
Ultimately, some people believe Labour Brexit will be a success because Tories aren't involved… even if the red lines and contradictory requirements are pretty much the same.
Well, to be fair, Corbyn is bound to get a much better reception in Brussels having been so commplimentary about the EU for decades
.
I got the impression that the Labour demands were simply a tool to castigate the Tories with. If they gained power, I’d expect them to come back with either/or options and let parliament vote on them.
If they were then in my opinion not only is it a complete dereliction of their duty to provide an oposition (vs just to oppose) but it's incredibly misjudged for the reason below.
I don't give them that much credit though - the Labour demands are so very very close to a lot of the "German cars, it'll be fine" pro brexit cramp promises during the referendum it's hard not to see them as a deliberate continuation of that "promise" it does nothing but to galvanize support for an impossible brexit amongst brexiteers at large when they're repeatedly told by the both the Tory right and Labour that this is not only achieve achievable but should be easy. Yes it makes the government look incompetent (as though help were needed) but it deliberately undermines the chances of securing a reasonable compromise which will be accepted by either side.
Well, to be fair, Corbyn is bound to get a much better reception in Brussels having been so commplimentary about the EU for decades
He's not anti European, some of his best friends are European.
Indeed. They're just perpetuating the same nonsense cake-and-eat-it myth that got us in this mess in the first place.
The trouble is that if they did get into power, they're going to have to deliver on it, but as we've seen it can't possibly be delivered. Not even anything remotely resembling it.
There's a section of the British population that have effectively been infantilised by being fed a succession of complete cobblers that only exists in bent lying politicians minds
Sooner or later someone's going to have to tell them that theres no santa and they can't have a pet unicorn
He’s not anti European, some of his best friends are European.
Especially since Israel got into Eurovision.
And she is insisting that a referendum and change of exit date is put “back in the table” as well, as did Cable. Lucas is over there now, presumably making the same point.
And she did…
https://twitter.com/carolinelucas/status/1085848806636351493?s=21
So that's the first three steps* that SNP, LibDems and Lucas see as essential…
1) rule out no deal
2) consider a second referendum
3) delay our exit
2&3 go hand in hand… can Labour get on board now? Just stating 1, without pushing for anything that delays, and/or could stop, our exit, is meaningless. There is no magic alternative withdrawl agreement that can be arrived at this month, and May's does not have the support of Parliament or the public.
(*not the steps I want, but the only ones that can win cross party support and potentially get us out of this hole)
Chewkw,how did you wangle the early release? Surely not good behaviour?
My mind is blank at the moment apart from catching up with backlog of works. LOL!
Haven't followed the Brexit development since my holiday 5 weeks ago. 😀
The government has produced "a very short paper setting out the factual detail on the number of months required" to hold another referendum, Downing Street has said.
This was "produced to inform the expected discussion" with the MPs who have been to see the PM and other ministers.
A government source told me it suggests "in excess of a year" would be needed before another referendum.
From the BBC's Chris Mason
This sounds ideal then. Especially as apparently we've just reached the exact day when the demographic changes of 'natural wastage' and the enfranchisement of new young voters (even if everyone else voted exactly the same) should mean a remain victory.
Every month that passes is a little knife in the heart of Nigel Farage.
Until then, delay, delay, delay.
If they were then in my opinion not only is it a complete dereliction of their duty to provide an oposition
It was a good start, but then it petered out.
They’re just perpetuating the same nonsense cake-and-eat-it myth that got us in this mess in the first place.
They don't have a lot of choice.
1) They can't go against Brexit because they'll never get into power. And they want power to get a chance to deliver social justice which let's not forget is also important, as well as EU membership.
2) They can't advocate soft Brexit, because they'll lose a load of votes in the same way as 1.
3) They can't advocate a May style deal because it's shite and no-one will vote for it as demonstrated.
4) They can't tell all Brexit voters they're thick and ignore the result, because the Tories didn't - see 1.
5) They can't go for no deal because everyone else will realise it's suicide.
As I said - they haven't got a lot of options. 2nd ref is the only one IMO but even that will cost them votes at the next GE and possibly the next four or five GEs, perhaps on the scale of the Lib Dem destruction.
I'd love to see binners get them out of this jam.
The problem there is a simple numbers one though, the greens, snp and lib dems don't, between them, have enough seats to make any difference, even if May managed to bring every non erg Tory and the DUP onside. The only people able to help here are Labour and their leadership at least won't.
No deal off the table is all well and good but, the only way that works is no brexit. That only works if it's got massive cross party support because everyone has to be willing to explain why it happened, why it had to happen and that whether it was Maybot, BoJo, Nige or St jezza in charge the outcome would have been the same, it can't be someone's or some party's fault.
You can't have no "no deal" and another referendum, not least as it's the only alternative to go on the ballot at the moment. If we're going to be allowed a choice it has to be a possible choice, if only to establish that the public (hopefully) categorically don't want it which means STV/AV and not only massive defeat for no deal but for all those leavers who didn't place it first to actually place it dead last, behind remain.
It has to be accepted that if brexit is a must, no deal has to be a possibility as we won't necessarily get a deal we're happy to accept and Europe won't allow us to drag it out for ever, eventually It will be a binary choice. It pains me to say it but no deal really is better than a bad deal (e.g. managed no deal currently being mooted by some nuts, hand over all the cash but walk away with nothing and no guarantees of anything except what smattering of goodwill we've not already pissed all over.)
2nd ref is the only one IMO but even that will cost them votes at the next GE and possibly the next four or five GEs, perhaps on the scale of the Lib Dem destruction.
Take solace in the fact it'll cost the Tories twice as dear.
Take back control. Stop asking the EU for favours. Cancel A50. Plan to leave without a transition period. Put your plan to the vote. Trigger A50 if you get approval, but only once you're sure you'll be ready to be a third country 2 years after triggering it.
If we're not ready to Leave in this quarter, of this year, hit the stop button, right now.
Hard for any politican to propose this and "keep support", but it's time someone led.
They’re just perpetuating the same nonsense cake-and-eat-it myth that got us in this mess in the first place.
Think I've said it before and I'll say it again. The trouble with all this frothing about unicorns, cake and eat it etc is that it comes from the belief that brexit isn't possible and should be reversed. I'm not going to argue with that as I pretty much agree. However this is also in complete denial of the fact that the people have voted and it needs to be enacted.
Reversing brexit and honouring the referendum result is no more possible than being in the single market and ending freedom of movement. Both May and Corbyn have made the decision that ignoring the referendum result is a non-starter for obvious reasons. You may well disagree with this and many do, however you can't argue that it's not the right position if they want to preserve any chances of them being in government in the future.
No doubt then everyone will cry that they are 'playing party politics', which is a pretty daft thing to say. They're politicians, that's what they're paid to do. It's like accusing a train driver of 'playing at train driving' like it's a bad thing.
If a vote is procured by illegal means is the vote valid?
It almost feels like they should've worked out how we would leave Europe before holding a referendum... almost...
However this is also in complete denial of the fact that the people have voted and it needs to be enacted.
A vote for what? A wish to Leave? We need to see a plan, that tells government departments what they need to have ready, and when. That tells companies what to prepare for, and when. That tells people living outside their country what to prepare for, and when. And put that to a public vote. Get a mandate for a plan of action, not a wish.
Get a mandate for a plan of action, not a wish.
Lets hold a referendum to give everyone everything that they ask for, and see how that works out
Hard for any politican to propose this and “keep support”, but it’s time someone led.
It almost feels like they should’ve worked out how we would leave Europe before holding a referendum… almost…
This is the crux IMO. The situation is begging for someone with some guts, some profile and the interests of the country at heart to stand up and say 'You know what? We're not ready to leave at this moment in time. Let's revoke A50 and then actually sit down and work out what we do want if we leave." Once that's sorted we can have another vote (either parliamentary or - more desirable - a referendum) based on some facts. It'll then be time to invoke A50 again... Or not...
I'd rather we remain, but if the process was a sound one, I'd accept the wishes of 'the people'. This process so far has not been sound...
"dazh
However this is also in complete denial of the fact that the people have voted and it needs to be enacted."
But as we see over and over, there's a tiny majority (of votes cast) for brexit but there was never a majority for any particular brexit. Since the different possible and impossible brexits are often contradictory, any brexit can only ever satisfy some brexit voters, and will disatisfy all remainers and some brexit voters.
Or in other words, the majority was for brexit but any possible brexit has the support of the minority. It is impossible for brexit to satisfy "the will of the people" or to respect the votes of all those that voted brexit.
The people proving this point most strongly, are the strongest of brexiteers, who keep refusing to take yes for an answer and declaring that the brexit on offer isn't brexity enough, or isn't brexit at all. They alone disprove the idea that the referendum can be "honoured"
(I nearly said falsify there but then I remembered how annoying it was when THM used to do that)
So that’s the first three steps* that SNP, LibDems and Lucas see as essential…
1) rule out no deal
2) consider a second referendum
3) delay our exit2&3 go hand in hand… can Labour get on board now?
Labour have been on board with 2&3 since the conference last year: they “support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote”.
Hard for any politican to propose this and “keep support”, but it’s time someone led.
The Lib Dems have been "leading" with this position for the last year. Latest Yougov poll puts them at 11%. It's a nice idea, but no-one is going to get into power with this stance. And you have to be in power to be able to actually enact any of your plans.
1) They can’t go against Brexit because they’ll never get into power. And they want power to get a chance to deliver social justice which let’s not forget is also important, as well as EU membership.
If the polls suggested Labour were just slightly ahead I could understand this comment, but as they are continually languishing behind the worst performing inept government in living memory I just can't agree with your comment. It's simply staggering that Labour aren't 10-12 points ahead of the hateful pro-Brexit tories.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html
NYT "the chumocrats"
A perspective from the outsie
If "Brexit" was a movie I was watching, I'd have walked out of the cinema by now in frustration.
"Leave" promised the world, without having to define what "The World" would actually be, just saying that it would be "amazingly better". They either really believed that the EU would give the almighty British Empire whatever it wanted, or they knew all along that the EU wouldn't, and are just feigning surprise / indignation now.
"Remain" couldn't raise a sensible argument against leaving. Whenever they did try they were shouted down by the very vocal and social-media proficient team of Brexiters (or possibly Russians - who knows?) who used, amongst other things, misleading banners on busses etc, which they 'fessed up to the day after the vote.
A huge chunk of the British Public were, apparently, too busy on the day of voting to even bother to vote - allowing a mere 17 million people to determine the fate of 66 million people.
Not even Steven Spielberg could have made this movie watchable.
(pls excuse the light hearted "summarising" of the facts)
🙂
The trouble with all this frothing about unicorns, cake and eat it etc is that it comes from the belief that brexit isn’t possible and should be reversed.
I'm not sure about that, I'm firmly of the cake and eat it camp but i don't think brexit isn't possible or must be stopped.
I'd like to see if reversed but I'm far from convinced it's a viable let alone sensible idea.
I am though firmly of the idea that a brexit which delivers everything which is being promised isn't possible, and that continuing to pretend it is is distinctly harmful for our democracy.
The sooner those in charge start being honest on all sides the better, it might change the general outlook but i don't hold much hope it will change it in favour of remain, what it will do though is give fair warning that this is going to hurt to the huge numbers who still think this can go brilliantly and are otherwise going to end up further divorced from the political process than they already were.
The majority of the leavers i know really cgas about the deal, they're fed up with politicians who seemingly don't represent them, lie and connive at every turn and continually come up smelling of roses when they dump on the rest of us. They don't see Europeas worse or different and given the choice they'd get rid of Westminster too, they may be in the minority nationally but I don't think they are and when brexit turns out to not make things better and deliver everything they've been promised they'll be even more pissed off and startlooking for the populist hypernationalist swap drainers that will appear by the dozen post leave to fix it.
If “Brexit” was a movie I was watching,
It'd be dr Strangelove really wouldn't it? I imagine JRM would fit elements of the eponymous role well, and i don't know about you but I'd pay to see BoJo riding to his oblivion.
Breaking:
From the Telegraph webby...
Hammond: Don't miss our exclusive, which suggests that a no-deal Brexit could be taken off the table within days, and Article 50 even “rescinded”
"The trouble with all this frothing about unicorns, cake and eat it etc is that it comes from the belief that brexit isn’t possible and should be reversed. "
Not at all. Brexit is totally possible, I think it's fair to say practically nobody thinks otherwise. It's just, some people are realistic about the reality of it and what it would actually mean- and that's where cake and eat it has been shown to be the goal over and over, and unicorns have been shown to be the solution to problems that need an answer that isn't mythical.
Some, perhaps most brexits are impossible. The "easiest deal in history" brexit is impossible, the "hold all the cards" brexit is impossible, getting May's deal past parliament is impossible, a jobs first brexit is impossible. Brexit isn't impossible, it's actually pretty easy, as long as you don't care about anything else.
Sky coverage of the whole sorry affair has been remarkably unirritating. And Boulton has indeed done a good job. Balanced enough not to have one side or the other cancelling subscriptions and biased enough to reflect a Europe-wide buisness model.
Breaking:
From the Telegraph webby…
Hammond: Don’t miss our exclusive, which suggests that a no-deal Brexit could be taken off the table within days, and Article 50 even “rescinded”
HERE
It will be may telling us she's happy to listen to everyone whilst not doing anything different I'm kind of starting to think she's delivering strong and stable in spades
Balanced enough not to have one side or the other cancelling subscriptions
Easy because they show the footy innit?
Brexit is possible.
A good Brexit is impossible.
Therefore stop Brexit. Sooner or later someone is going to have to tell the gammons the truth.
https://twitter.com/bozmack/status/1085476902452776961?s=19
Nice little summary of the whole sorry mess.