Don't be so scathing. The reason we can't have our cake and eat it is simply because the people who asked for that were frightful Tory types. If a nice socialist goes and asks, they will receive an entirely different response
Cake for everyone!! Hurrah!!!
Any surprises in Corbyn's speech?
Edit: Ah, I see, I guess that's a no.
The reason we can’t have our cake and eat it is simply because the people who asked for that were frightful Tory types. If a nice socialist goes and asks, they will receive an entirely different response
Binners, you really are missing something. May's deal is the result of May's negotiation position and May's red lines. It really is pretty obvious that if you have different requirements you could get a different deal.
She started with "maintain frictionless trade" but "end to freedom of movement"… 'till her contradictions met reality.
What happens when Corbyn's cake and eat it requirements meet reality? And how are they different?
Molly - Corbyns stated position, which he has regularly re-stated, is to be part of A customs union, but not THE customs union, to retain tariff-free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and to end freedom of movement
And unicorns
How many times does the EU have to re-state that the 4 freedoms of the EU are indivisable before it sinks in with our politicians that the 4 freedoms of the EU are indivisable? Its non-negotiable whether or not you are in possession of a beard
but not THE customs union, and to retain tariff-free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and to end freedom of movement
And given his internationalist, anti-racist pro-immigration stance which of those three do you think he'd give way on?
He's also apparently better at compromise than May, which isn't that hard tbh.
Yeah, he's renowned for all his compromises, isn't he?
Daz - you say he's internationalist, but its a funny sort of internationalist who's spent his entire parliamentary career being rabidly anti-EU.
Thinking Israel is horrid and the Iraq war was a terrible mistake doesn't make you an internationalist
Have we done the bollocks to brexit sticker?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-46810614/john-bercow-anti-brexit-sticker-belongs-to-my-wife
you say he’s internationalist, but its a funny sort of internationalist who’s spent his entire parliamentary career being rabidly anti-EU.
Ok then, to be exact, he's a 'socialist internationalist'. That's perfectly compatible with being anti-EU. I know you like to associate and compare Corbyn to the nutters on the other side, because seen through the lens of brexit they appear to be for the same things, but really that couldn't be further from the truth. The socialist ideology is founded on the pillar that divisions between nations are secondary to divisions between class. He's even expressed that today in his speech by saying the real divide is not remain vs leave but rich vs poor. This explains his entire position on the EU and it's about as far from the nationalist views of the nutters as you can get.
The "Rich" don't need to keep their rights as EU citizens really, and if they do, they can go and buy joint citizenship from Malta or somewhere. Brexit removes important rights from poorer Brits… some are happy with that if it keeps out bilingual people… others see that as a lose lose situation. That is a very real divide.
Didn't Corbyn say something about ending freedom of movement to protect British workers jobs/pay?
I think that was Nigel Farage.
Expect plenty of this. EU money will be tempting a lot of our industry in the next few years.
It is now ridiculous to think the Lib Dem’s were destroyed over tuition fees. Con & Labour both complicit over Brexit and it’s effect on university funding and research.
It is now ridiculous to think the Lib Dem’s were destroyed over tuition fees. Con & Labour both complicit over Brexit and it’s effect on university funding and research.
But, shame on us, a vast majority of people don't (can't?) think like that.
Ask an average Joe in the street to state something about the LibDems and they will most likely spout something about 'coalition and tuition fees'. No matter that Brexit will have an effect of the affordability and quality of higher education that is orders of magnitude worse than anything to do with tuition fees - a lot of people still don't grasp this.
They genuinely think that if we go into April with a No Deal there will just be a few queues at the ports for a fortnight and then things will carry on pretty much as they did before.
the reality is that there was no point in, for example, NHS England announcing a long term plan - if a No Deal happens, there will not be enough money for anything - and most public services are either being bled to death by private outsourcing firms and are on their uppers as it is.
Meanwhile we spend £6bn (six billion!) on trying to simulate the chaos caused by a self-inflicted disaster!!!!
Ask an average Joe in the street to state something about the LibDems and they will most likely spout something about ‘coalition and tuition fees’. No matter that Brexit will have an effect of the affordability and quality of higher education that is orders of magnitude worse than anything to do with tuition fees – a lot of people still don’t grasp this.
Yep, it appears the Lib Dems are being punished for being too good/principled then not principled enough. Imagine if people only gave the other parties one shot at it. It's pathetic really and sort of sums up the state of UK politics at the moment. People desperate to tell you how they can't vote for somebody over 1 or 2 issues but will ignore huge amounts to vote for people they don't really agree with on a lot of issues.
Given that neither the Tories nor Labour will be keen to see a strong LibDem party, then it is hardly surprising that the spin machines have been out in force to make sure that they get shafted over tuition fees etc.
It's just another example of media winning the hearts and minds of folks rather than actual facts.
That's not saying the LibDems are innocent here... just no more guilty than the other bunch
That’s not saying the LibDems are innocent here… just no more guilty than the other bunch
Whats that 5 years of **** ups over a lifetime....
Given that neither the Tories nor Labour will be keen to see a strong LibDem party, then it is hardly surprising that the spin machines have been out in force to make sure that they get shafted over tuition fees etc.
It’s just another example of media winning the hearts and minds of folks rather than actual facts.
That’s not saying the LibDems are innocent here… just no more guilty than the other bunch
Exactly. The problem is that most people have lives to live and turn the radio on to hear the LibDems being kicked about tuition fees (rightly) but never make the next step which is about proportion and materiality.
The LibDems have by far the most sensible line on Brexit - get it stopped - but then they can afford to say that, can't they?!
Is there any chance we could stop pretending that the Lib Dems collapse was all about tuition fees? That was a standout issue but it's hardly the only thing that cost them voters, the entire coalition was a disaster for them and rightly so imo. Too many ex-lib dem voters won't risk voting lib dem and getting tory again.
Problem is, many people cannot move on.
You can't mention Nick Clegg without someone going "yes but tuition fees"; Blair without "Iraq war"; Corbyn without Binners exploding; etc etc.
Many of these were mistakes made years ago. We'll never be able to look to the future if we keep harping on about the past.
Too many ex-lib dem voters won’t risk voting lib dem and getting tory again.
Too many ex-lib dem voters won’t risk voting lib dem and getting tory again.
And there we have a somethingion of the shiteness of our political system. Folk won't vote for the party whose views they have most in common with because that will lead to someone they don't like getting in.
No wonder we end up with governments who don't represent us - The whole thing is ****erty ****ed
norbert colon
And there we have a somethingion of the shiteness of our political system. Folk won’t vote for the party whose views they have most in common with because that will lead to someone they don’t like getting in.
In this case, it's because they voted for the party whose views they have most in common with, and then that party put another party whose views they had little in common with into power. Arguably that's less to do with our shit political system, since coalitions are relatively uncommon under fptp.
But if we were suddenly PR or whatever tomorrow, a lot of people would still worry about voting Lib Dem because of what the party might do with that vote. Not a problem I have personally, I won't vote for them because the scottish party these days are paper-thin amoral yet still holier-than-though ****s, rather than anything to do with coalitions or tuition fees.
May is surely toast by next Friday
Deal voted down early next week
3 days for an alternative
That can never happen
She must fall on her sword by next Friday.
It’s her deal. If it fails, she has to go.
Where we go from there is interesting.
Mays deal fails.
No deal will not get through Parliament.
Surely it’s a cancellation of the whole thing with the promise of another referendum further down the line
Surely it’s a cancellation of the whole thing with the promise of another referendum further down the line
The most likely outcome I can see right now is an attempt to extend A50 and kick the can down the road (again) in the vain hope that we'll somehow discover Schrodinger's Unicorn over the next couple of years.
She must be bloody desperate!
Channel 4 news are reporting that she phoned Len McCluskey today to try and drum up labour support 😳
The game really is up
The most likely outcome I can see right now is an attempt to extend A50 and kick the can down the road (again) in the vain hope that we’ll somehow discover Schrodinger’s Unicorn over the next couple of years.
100%
Total can kicking
From t'Beeb -
Mrs May repeated her call to MPs to support her plan, saying: "The only way to avoid no deal is to have a deal and to agree a deal, and the deal that is on the table, the deal that is the deal that the EU has made clear, is the only deal."
Wait - has no-one told her we can revoke A50...?
No deal will not get through Parliament
The thing is 'no deal' doesn't go through parliament, it's what happens if nothing else happens.
To stop no deal, one of the following has to happen.
May's deal goes through
May retracts or extends a50
Vote of no confidence & GE/retraction or extension of A50
Second referendum followed by retraction of a50
Is there any chance we could stop pretending that the Lib Dems collapse was all about tuition fees? That was a standout issue but it’s hardly the only thing that cost them voters, the entire coalition was a disaster for them and rightly so imo. Too many ex-lib dem voters won’t risk voting lib dem and getting tory again.
I don’t pretend that, but it is the only line you will hear from a lot of ordinary Joes if you say “So, what do you think about the LibDems?”
Note how the fact that they ‘had’ to give ground on this because they were in coalition with the toxic Tories is often not registered because the Daily Heil doesn’t push that bit at every opportunity.
A lot of people just rely on snippets and sound bites. They are thus at the mercy of the comics like the Mail and the Torygraph.
Channel 4 news are reporting that she phoned Len McCluskey today to try and drum up labour support
On Brexit, their stars are aligned… why shouldn't she talk to him? Perhaps they can meet in person… somewhere far away… somewhere that get can get snowed in 'till March would be just fine.
No deal will not get through Parliament
The thing is ‘no deal’ doesn’t go through parliament, it’s what happens if nothing else happens
True.
But Parliament won’t allow nothing to happen if mays deal fails. Leaving with no deal is Armageddon. They can, and will, stop it
The noise that you hear on twitter (yeah I know) from the British legal types is that an extension would be about 6months or so, which would be jack all use unless if it were for a referendum or a GE .. given how much time the Tories have wasted and the position they are in it wouldn't be much use , they'd mess about trying to request "negotiation" as a ref isn't morally acceptance and GE even less so. Need to get on with burying the may deal but that means a new leader of the Tories (!)
2000 pages on this thread I reckon
Agreed.. It's certainly going to get more messy before it gets less messy.
The government has literally no authority or majority any more.
Just look at the verbal attacks on John Bercow for allowing the grieve amendment to be heard, from a government that's already been held in contempt of parliament.
May's clock stopping is (was) a clear attempt to blackmail parliament into voting her deal in, another blatant abuse of process /contemptuous action.
The wheels on the bus keep falling off
Falling off
Falling off
The wheels on the bus keep falling off, all day long.
Interesting comment I read earlier..
It was masterly. Months ago, on the debate organised by The Independent, Grieve said that if things weren’t settled by Jan 21, a national state of emergency would have to be declared and a cross-party government formed. Leadsom and Rees-Mogg, also present, just nodded their agreement glumly. Well, by my count, next week’s vote plus three days is Jan 21 or near as dammedest. If May’s government hasn’t a winning plan by then, the country needs someone to wrestle the steering wheel off them.
And because it's been a while now,
Tick. Tock.
Fiona’s first Question Time tonight should be a lively one.
Anyone else long for the days when the big issue of the day theyd be discussing would be hospital waiting lists or which Tory MP had been caught with a load of coke and hookers that week?
Indeed.. The government and both houses have been so consumed by this abomination that no actual day to day governance can take place, social care crisis, health care crisis, public transport crisis, housing crisis.. All that has been effectively parked for the last two years. A bit like the lorries will be at our ports.
Brexit dividend! Take back control!
Indeed.. The government and both houses have been so consumed by this abomination that no actual day to day governance can take place, social care, health care, public transport crisis, housing crisis.. All that has been effectively parked for the last two years. A bit like the lorries will be at our ports.
Brexit dividend! Take back control!
Which is the single biggest indicator that the whole thing really is a ****ing awful idea.
Ask a Leaver why it is going like it is and they’ll just say ‘remoaners, enemies of the people, blah, blah, blah, froth, froth, twitch, shouty, shouty, twitch, froth, explode in gammony rage’.
To the far right headbangers in the Tory party colonial fantasies of empire have always taken priority over boring old shit like providing schools and hospitals for the common peasantry. They’re all absolutely loving all this shit!
Which is kinda ironic when you think about it, a healthy happy productive society is far less likely to get angry over a bit of political or cooperate tax avoidance by the higher earners.. Deny them food, jobs, freedom, healthcare and education and you'll have a bit of a kerfuffle.
Don't mess with Britain', says Defence Secretary, as he reveals new fighter jet capabilities
Yeah well we have 9 combat ready F35s and tankers that don't work ....we are ready to be a potent independent nation...
Yes 9 of them we certainly know how to talk a big game tho
Is it wrong to be ashamed of your own country
Is it wrong to be ashamed of your own country
No it's an important skill to learn
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel
Blind faith in the country of your birth is a terrifying and dangerous thing.
