Support for no deal is still quite high, people just think it will all be fine.
Most of it probably will, the government will just throw £bns more at it & we'll muddle through (a few chemo patients & diabetics may fall by the wayside), with austerity grinding down the poorest extended for a few decades as a result.
Health sec Matt Hancock on newsnight yesterday admitting he'd spent £10m on fridges we may never need in event of no deal, fortunately the NHS can easily afford it🙄
they voted to leave the EU. How never came into it.
And there's the problem, they voted for something insanely complex without wondering how it would work in practice
Guardian today reporting bolsover nwants to leave more now than ever.
Most of it probably will, the government will just throw £bns
Where does this money just keep coming from
Support for no deal is still quite high, people just think it will all be fine.
Most of it probably will
The trouble is this issue is so polarised that no one can see it from the other side. It's a classic status quo vs unknown future thing. In the past I've always been up for radical change as the status quo simply isn't working for vast numbers of people in the bottom half of society. The trouble with this though is that it's being led and fuelled by people who I'm completely opposed to. Strangely I'm almost looking forward to a no deal just to see what will happen out of curiosity. Either way though we are f*****.
And if we want a vision of the future of where this could go, have a look at Germany. One way or the other things are going to get very messy.
Where does this money just keep coming from
The same place which pays for wars and weapons when they are needed. This is the problem. There's money for shit like this, but not for things that actually help normal people.
I am sure that a large part of the population thinks that the government can just print money and it will not impact the country. That's the magic money tree.
Need more money for the NHS? Why not just print more and use that?
I think this thread tells you what's happening in the UK now. There was a debate initially and some leavers even managed a few lines of justification. The leavers and leave apologists soon either made fools of themselves or events made fools off them. Their predicitions were so wide of what hapened it became embarrassing. People I'd quite liked made comments that woudl quickly haunt them. "leave winning by a small margin would be the best result" from someone who seemed otherwise to have a remainer profile and years of reasonable psoting on political issues. How do you come back to the debate after a comment like that? They don't, they hide in their entrenched positions and leave the thread/entire forum alone.
So who's left from the flurry of posting pre-Brexit, between Brexit and the election, post election... ? People who've been proved right and whose opinions and previous claims aren't an embarrassment to them. The foreigners, the expats, the researchers, the small business people, the Guardian readers, the teachers (if they haven't been banned).
Just now and then a leaver pokes his head up to be shot at (a social worker of some kind with a sense of immunity to economic events a short while back).
So in a place where people can air their views without fear the remain arguments hold sway and are visible. But in the real world? It's the leave bullies and thugs who are in charge. A guy I know in the UK is a small businessman and vocal remainer. He got a lot of "Bollox to Brexit" stickers. However, even his own son (an equally enthusiatic remainer) refused to put one his car because he didn't want he thing keyed, kicked, smashed... .
The bullies are in charge in real UK.
…they would decide that a slim majority in an advisory referendum
The referendum was never advisory. It was put forward as a straight choice in or out, with parliament overwhelmingly voting to hold it. There might not be a strict legal obligation to abide by the result but there's a massive political obligation to. Completely disregarding the vote would shake this countries democracy to the core.
The referendum was never advisory.
Yes it was.
Sorry but you cant simply make this sort of shit up. Go and look at the law.
If it had been done as legally binding (which would have been hard to do but lets move on from that) then the likelihood of it being done as a simple majority is pretty minimal.
In addition there would have been better legal protection against the illegal campaign practices.
Also, because it was advisory, lots of measures were left out of the referendum bill on the basis of cost. Parliament allowed the bill to pass without strengthening it because is was advisory.
The bullies are in charge in real UK.
If you're viewing the UK through media and social media, I can see why you'd think this. Let me reassure you that here on the ground, Brits are still as civil as ever 99.9% of the time. There is not a feeling of "bullies" being in charge here, even though some bullies are very vocally in support of our current political direction.
So would not holding a second vote now the lies and illegal financing of the leave campaign are known, and three options are concrete rather than vague promise about the easiest deal ever.
May's deal
leave without a deal
Remain
Those options were never covered by the original referendum. If you believe in democracy, Taxi25, you need to know which of the three people want.
And it was advisory, read the first 150 pages of this thread and you'll find that's what STWers understood as they went into the vote hense the dumbass comnents from some remainers to the effect it would be a good wake-up call if leave won by a small margin. It was only after the referendum when Cameron abdicated and Corbyn got behind Brexit that people relaised it was being taken (too) seriously. The rabid foreign-controlled media leading the campaign to make "advisory" binding.
BTW I'll never take a taxi again in the UK. One of the balatantly Brexit sectors I'm boycotting along with Weatherstones, Dyson, anything made in shefield... .
Completely disregarding the vote would shake this countries democracy to the core.
It already left one MP murdered, and empowered the racist thugs in yellow vests
brexit has already let that cat out of the bag
.
& the vote has not been disregarded, its dominated government for the last 2.5 years, virtually everything else has been put on pause, the government have had to hire 20,000 civil servants since the ref & created a new office of State, weve spent £4bn? (£10mn just of fridges FFS!)
that delivering the impossible dreams sold by the right wing press & the brexiteers turns out to be ....... impossible should be a lesson to the voters not to put your faith in the likes of Farage, Johnson or Mogg- they had no plan to make it work & theyve failed the Leavers utterly
Really? It never made the propoganda, when it did it was being explained as a really bad idea by the architects of brexit.
Was this pre or post referendum? I don't recall any detailed discussion on various types of out prior to the referendum.
You were sleeping then. All the main Leave campaigns talked about a slow steady withdrawl with transition arrangements with the EU, keeping the benefits of the Single Market, and getting new trade deals with RoW ready to implement before we Leave.
The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want
Michael Gove
9 April 2016
Was this pre or post referendum? I don’t recall any detailed discussion on various types of out prior to the referendum.
What?!?!
Did you listen, watch or read anything about Brexit before the vote?
Was this pre or post referendum? I don’t recall any detailed discussion on various types of out prior to the referendum.
I seem to recall that the relative merits of remaining in the customs union was extensively debated during the referendum campaign
Oh... erm... hang on a minute.... no. I was getting mixed up with the entire population of Turkey moving here to claim their free house then rape your daughter
BTW I’ll never take a taxi again in the UK. One of the balatantly Brexit sectors I’m boycotting along with Weatherstones, Dyson, anything made in shefield… .
Funniest thing I've read on this thread 😂😂 wait untill your 5mls from home on a cold night in the pouring rain. I'll drive past you with a cheery wave 👌
But what makes you think I voted leave, I voted remain !! My point was the vote wasn't presented as advisory, and that the vote would be respected. I'm fully aware of the legality of it.
by saying lets all get together and have a plan to stop a no deal brexit and burn the 52% who voted for it,
And yet it's perfectly acceptable to burn the 48% who didn't. Makes you think... or perhaps it doesn't, unfortunately.
It’s a classic status quo vs unknown future thing. In the past I’ve always been up for radical change as the status quo simply isn’t working for vast numbers of people in the bottom half of society.
Except, it's not. Or, shouldn't be. I've said this all along, the "status quo" is a mistake. People want change, great, we can offer them change without going through with this brexit insanity. Reform, not Remain.
Completely disregarding the vote would shake this countries democracy to the core.
So have another referendum, then. No-one ever complained about a general election "shaking this country's democracy to the core" because we already had a vote a few years ago. That's just more leave propaganda.
If you believe in democracy, Taxi25, you need to know which of the three people want.
If you believe in representative democracy then you don't care what "the people want," you act in the country's best interests. What people want is an irrelevance, people are idiots and need protecting from themselves.
My point was the vote wasn’t presented as advisory, and that the vote would be respected.
Ie, the government lied, you mean?
Cameron said in the same breath that he'd see it through whatever the result. How's he getting on with that, remind me?
There's an interesting word there, "respected." That's not the same as "enacted" now, is it. I can readily respect someone's opinion but disagree with it.
If you believe in representative democracy then you don’t care what “the people want,” you act in the country’s best interests.
That's not true. Representatives should CARE what the people want - otherwise they wouldn't be representatives, they'd be technocrats - but they should find a path between what people say they want and what's actually going to work and be beneficial.
There’s an interesting word there, “respected.” That’s not the same as “enacted” now, is it.
I think it is, in this usage.
My point was the vote wasn’t presented as advisory, and that the vote would be respected.
The vote was, democratically, decided to be advisory only. With the associated lower level of checks and balances.
It was then, undemocratically, presented as binding.
I would say that it shakes democracy far more to be able to arbitrarily change a non binding piece of legislation to a binding item. It also shakes democracy far more to try and go a one vote and thats it approach. Thats the tool of wannabe dictators. Once democracy goes your way once shut it down.
There’s an interesting word there, “respected.” That’s not the same as “enacted” now, is it. I can readily respect someone’s opinion but disagree with it.
How would you feel if the 52% was to remain, the government "respected" that then left anyway ?
I voted leave but we lost, as things stand we're leaving the EU one way or another. My intention is to make the best of it and get on with my life. My advise to other's is to do the same, but if you prefer whinning and moaning on the internet about it, carry on for what good it'll do you.
*advice
Also, *others
if you prefer whinning and moaning on the internet about it, carry on for what good it’ll do you
Or, we keep publishing our opinions, we keep campaigning, we go on marches, we have a public debate, and we make our opinions heard. Why would I stop voicing my opinion? Democracy doesn't start and end at the ballot box.
Completely disregarding the vote would shake this countries democracy to the core.
Is this a bad thing. If we've learned nothing else about our parliamentary process, we've learned that the 2 party / confrontational politics we currently have is no longer fit for purpose. We need something to break it up and I said 2 years ago and say again now that we are screaming out for proper coalition politicians to start acting in the interests of the country as a whole, not just the shoutiest / angriest.
And yet it’s perfectly acceptable to burn the 48% who didn’t. Makes you think… or perhaps it doesn’t, unfortunately.
Again STW use of just the little snippet
The point was there are other ways and the political elite don't have yours or mine or 52 percent 48 or the whole nations interests it seems
The other point was they will ride roughshod over even what you could be loosely considered the majority vote to make their own little victory over the next MP in line whilst using the for the benefit of the country line.
I would say that it shakes democracy far more to be able to arbitrarily change a non binding piece of legislation to a binding item. It also shakes democracy far more to try and go a one vote and thats it approach. Thats the tool of wannabe dictators. Once democracy goes your way once shut it down
Bang one except the wannabe dictator it's a fully fledged one we got sinking the ship.
That’s not true. Representatives should CARE what the people want – otherwise they wouldn’t be representatives, they’d be technocrats – but they should find a path between what people say they want and what’s actually going to work and be beneficial.
Ok, point ceded, that was a poor choice of words on my part. What I mean though is that what the people think they want shouldn't be a mandate for how parliament acts. The people would love to abolish taxation I'm sure, does that make it a good idea?
How would you feel if the 52% was to remain, the government “respected” that then left anyway ?
Irrespective of any stupid referendum, if I believed it was in our best interests then I'd be all for it, if I did not then I would oppose it. 48% / 52% isn't statistically significant either way and as I said, I couldn't give a toss what "the people" think they want, I can see beyond the end of my nose and I want what's best for the country.
Again STW use of just the little snippet
Just to refer back to what I was replying to, I try not to C&P great swathes of text.
The point was there are other ways
No arguments here, that's what I've been trying to say.
This makes me think you voted out, Taxi25.
taxi25
Member
If it was just a common market in, but it’s not so I’m out. No idea about the consequences of a successful out vote but I’m prepared to find out.
Posted 2 years ago
I'm entirely happy with a representative democracy and thought the referendum was a really dumb move, Cougar. But having got into this mess via a referendum it's a possible way out of the mess. Renew the binary question but with three options "in, out, no preference" and then in the case of out three choices "May's deal, no deal, no preference"
From a Facebook conversation last night..
Me -
And the benefits of leaving are?
Them -
being independent again !! Out of all the countries who have joined, how many have prospered from in ????
How many countries have been bailed out??
How many countries work population has dropped, and being miss treated !!!
Thing is, is wat slot of people can’t understand, is that the Eu is one big consortium!!
Have s look how people are appointed to post.
Everybody is untitled to their opinion !
But the vote was to leave and in any situation if a vote is won then it stands !!!!
But now !!!
That changes !!!!
Nope that’s not right!!!
Also in the matter there’s another 56 million waiting to cross these borders in the next 6 years !!!!
So where are my kids going to live when they grow up more to the point where are they going to work ???? There’s not enough work now !!!!
Let alone for another 56 million people !!!
Me -
That isn't a benefit - that's the status quo...
What about your kids rights to work anywhere around the EU?
What are the actual tangible benefits of leaving?
Them -
if my kids do decide to work in the Eu their company will look after them !!
Simples !!!!
Benifits yo leaving is our fishing waters will be ours, we will have a say in how we export and import goods, and have control of what influx of skilled workers we have coming into our country.
It will be ruff at first, but that’s wat us British are good at if we all stick together, ( getting out of the shit, stiff upper lip and all that) we can get through a few hard months.
Me -
what if they just want to do a season in Morzine, who are the local companies likely to employ? EU citizens who need no paperwork or British, who will need visas, & plenty of paperwork?
Our fishing waters are already controlled by us - it's just the government favoured larger foreign owned vessels to the British fishing fleet, but they tend to forget about that...
https://www.theguardian.com/.../propaganda-brexit-fish-eu...At the moment we have free movement of goods throughout the EU - as an example, Nissan have a factory here, they then export to the continent. Post Brexit there'll tarifs on those vehicles or even parts that they source for their cars, this will mean costs go up - sales fall, they'll re-locate to the EU to avoid these additional costs.
At the moment the wage threshold they are setting looks like it's going to be £30,000, how many people do you know who earn that? Who's going to pick bulbs? make pasties? wash cars? (slight cliches of cheap immigrant labour jobs)
Why should almost half the country have to stick together when they didn't want this? Or we could just remain as we are? No self inflicted hardship for the sake of something we already have.
Them -
They can’t survive with out our money !!!
Once we tighten the grip they will come running !!
Me -
...
Literally no response - how much clutching at straws do you want to do!?
Just to refer back to what I was replying to, I try not to C&P great swathes of text.
Oh ok sorry
It will be ruff at first, but that’s wat us British are good at if we all stick together, ( getting out of the shit, stiff upper lip and all that) we can get through a few hard months.
I've got old mates from school who are regularly parroting this delusional, '2 world wars and a world cup' style gibberish on social media
I think they watched the Dambusters too many times. We've been sold this myth of British (but lets be honest... English) national exceptionalism for so many years 52% of us actually believed it
Depressing
Democracy: a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
So we've got the first part right, all eligible members of the state were allowed to vote in the referendum. HOWEVER there is so much more to 'government' than simply/dumbly enacting the result of that vote, hence why democracy was already being debased by even asking the question.
I would argue the correct 'democratic' response to a 1.8% majority for leave would be to say OK, a small majority are unhappy, what is an appropriate measure to take? I would have suggested diverting more funds into the NHS (red bus box ticked) and perhaps tightening up on immigration (using the existing laws we already had) to pay lip service to the immigration argument.
The best analogy I can think of is a governor on a steam train, if it detects a rise in speed, it reacts appropriately to slow the train down. A 1.8% rise in speed would elicit a proportionally small reaction. The Brexit equivalent would be a governor which detects a 1.8% rise in speed and reacts by shutting down the boiler and causing a hellish steam explosion that obliterates the locomotive...
if I believed it was in our best interests then I’d be all for it, if I did not then I would oppose it. 48% / 52% isn’t statistically significant either way and as I said, I couldn’t give a toss what “the people” think they want,
Back that brings things back to democracy. Both Conservative and Labour believe their policies are whats best for the country. A vote for the opposition would be damaging, but the loosers suck it up and look to next time. We were given a vote (shouldn't have) so the result should be respected, adhered, enacted whatever. If you don't belive that the only person not fit to vote is yourself.
Or, we keep publishing our opinions, we keep campaigning, we go on marches, we have a public debate, and we make our opinions heard. Why would I stop voicing my opinion? Democracy doesn’t start and end at the ballot box.
Of course look to the future, try and influence future governments to take us back into Europe if you think thats right. Actively try and undermine a vote thats already happened..... I doing think thats a very healthy position.
Thank you for your opinion.
Most people in the UK now have a different opinion to you.
2016 is long gone.
Democracy hasn't been frozen (although looking at parliament at the moment, you could argue that perhaps it has).
The "people" of 2019 don't want us to Leave the EU. The MPs elected in 2017 don't agree on how to Leave the EU, even if we do. Perhaps that suggests something has to change. Why does the 2016 vote mean we have to Leave the EU in a way that was slammed as "Project Fear" during the campaign back then?
Why is having another vote seen as an affront to democracy - the previous vote promised certain things, turned out they can't deliver on them. We are now in a much better place knowledge wise, surely now is the best time to vote?
Both Conservative and Labour believe their policies are whats best for the country.
Do they? Most MPs were remain, they voted for A50 because their constituents did.
We were given a vote (shouldn’t have) so the result should be respected, adhered, enacted whatever.
But as we've said - it's not that simple. The vote was to indicate that the public *wanted* to leave. In a sensible (and democratic) world that should have triggered a series of questions:
1) Can we leave without damaging the economy?
2) How much damage are we prepared to inflict to leave?
3) What sort of post-leave arrangement do we want?
4) What are our demands for the leave agreement?
5) Will there actually be any benefits afterwards?
6) How long will it take to sort all this out?
7) Can we improve our situation and address people's concerns without leaving?
8) Given the answers to all the above, do we still want to leave and if so exactly how and when?
That process should've been handled by a cross party group, and it should've taken years. Instead we got the plug pulled and May and a few mates who clearly haven't a CLUE just pressing on without telling anyone what they were planning.
Both approaches would've respected the vote, one would have been sensible, one was ****ing stupid.
Having another vote with a different question, or when the information has changed is NOT undemocratic. How can it be? How is voting undemocratic? I do however think that another vote is needed - I don't think any government can simply revoke A50 in any practical sense.
This makes me think you voted out, Taxi25.
I did initially think of voting leave but I became "Edukated", you understand the concept 😉
Do they? Most MPs were remain, they voted for A50 because their constituents did.
Sorry MG I was reffering to general politics not specifically Brexit.
I don’t think any government can simply revoke A50 in any practical sense.
A government could revoke A50, and then take all the steps you mention, before deciding what to do next. No government will do that though… hence calls for the public to have another say ASAP. Another referendum shouldn't be required at this point, it should probably come later… after the proper work has been done to present an agreed alternative to EU membership to the public… but in reality it is being grasped at as a way to just stop the process before we hit the end date. All this rushing is ridiculous, and triggering A50 without a plan was negligent in the extreme.
All this rushing is ridiculous, and triggering A50 without a plan was negligent in the extreme.
My memory might be failing, but wasn't it a case of the Eu not being willing to discuss a deal/plan untill A50 was enacted ?
My memory might be failing, but wasn’t it a case of the Eu not being willing to discuss a deal/plan untill A50 was enacted ?
kind of, but the time of triggering A50 was the only leverage we ever had, May (& corbyn) having voted remain were desperate to show they respected the 'will of the people' so & heeded the calls of the idiot brexiteers to push on as quickly as possible, despite them having no plan
A50 should never have been triggered without coming up with a properly assessed plan & fully explained to teh public what it meant
that basic error set the scene for the shambles & series of unforced errors that followed
good explainer here
https://lotsmoore.co.uk/how-auto-enrolment-shows-brexit-is-doomed/
It will be ruff at first, but that’s wat us British are good at if we all stick together, ( getting out of the shit, stiff upper lip and all that) we can get through a few hard months.
Are these the same people who phoned the police when KFC ran out of chicken?
this thread also explains a lot more abut A50
https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1082349135209160706
Why is having another vote seen as an affront to democracy
Are you an Enemy Of The People or a Nazi? It just is okay?
Dont dare question the will of the people.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact the brexit elite are worried another vote wouldnt go their way and hence want second time lucky to be final.
I did initially think of voting leave but I became “Edukated”, you understand the concept
I've never broken into your house and piled all the furniture up in a heap then left a note saying "die fetten jahre sind vorbei!". My pseudo comes from the Austrian-German film which was released as "the Edukators" in France. The film is about social injustice. The "Edukating" was about making rich people feel uncomfortable and insecure despite their wealth.
