Which he immediately retracted
That's what I took from it when I heard it as well… I was thinking "what an idiot" and then he basically said "I'm being an idiot" and backed out, rather than doubling down. I think he was going down the "80% of voters voted for a party promising to get out of … blah blah … but protect … blah blah … which what is this deal does", but thought "this is nonsense, forgot it" rather than do all that awful disingenuous logical gymnastics. I found that refreshing.
One thing I have noticed is on FaceBook. There's quite a few trolls coming on to Scottish pages and crowing how they are going to get rid of whingeing subsidy junkies and have an independent England.
I think they are surprised at our level of support for them. 🙂
Can we have Rory Stewart, Keir Starmer, Ken Clarke, James O'Brien and Danny Dyer (to get the plebs on side) leading a unity government? Pretty please. I've had enough now, it's just not funny anymore.
Dyer can be monarch, he does after all have a distant claim, and could deliver the policies via the King's speech in a tone we can both understand and have a laugh along with.
Ah yes, very true kelvin. We haven't had a King Daniel yet have we?
It’s rather telling in our negotiations with Ireland over the border the normally junior country was able to tell us to do one with the backing of their club, for probably the first time in our shared history.
See, this just stinks of English nationalism and jingoism. We're English, everyone should bow down at our feet because we're so superior.
We haven't had any negotiations with Ireland... we've negotiated with the EU (of which Ireland is a remaining member)
What makes you think the government wouldn’t allow a “reckless” move in March, considering how most people who are up for that vote Conservative? And how do you think anyone else will stop them, if it goes to the wire?
A vote of no confidence in the Government could be used to stop it, potentially easily winnable by the opposition (i.e all other parties) as the Conservatives are minority Government (but I can also see those within Government voting for the motion too!). This would be a change in UK politics. The EU have cited that as a reason to look at extending the A50 date. An alternative would be a unilateral revocation of A50, which has been confirmed as possible by the ECJ. That could be the "going to the wire" option.
I don't believe there is anywhere near a majority supporting no deal in Parliament or the Government. It just won't be allowed to happen.
May is attempting to shutdown the other options so it's just her deal or no deal. Ultimately I think she will fail in this endeavour, tripped up by her own inflexibility and bloody-mindedness.
The leave campaign is still spreading lies & mis-information...
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1076079262556409856
I don't understand why "Leave" are arguing that there won't be a hard border as though it's a positive thing. Surely without one it's an easy way for migrants/refugees to sneak into the UK, which is typically one of their main bug-bears...
dmorts
A vote of no confidence in the Government could be used to stop it, potentially easily winnable by the opposition (i.e all other parties) as the Conservatives are minority
You think the DUP are part of the opposition?
You think the DUP are part of the opposition?
The current Government is a minority as it's not a formal coalition, therefore the DUP can be the opposition. However even if the DUP stayed on the Government's side, there would only need to be a handful of Conservatives backing the vote of no confidence for it to pass. I think that if we're in a dire situation heading completely unprepared for a no deal leave then some Conservatives would vote against the Government. The party is hardly united as it is now. Imagine how those existing cracks would be opened up more by no deal.
See, this just stinks of English nationalism and jingoism. We’re English, everyone should bow down at our feet because we’re so superior.
I heard a few days ago, a Conservative MP (can’t remember which one) opining that “the Irish should know their place”... Says it all, really.
Also, this year’s “Alternative Christmas Message” -
Geeeeeeeeeeza!
You think the DUP are part of the opposition?
Well they are against pretty much everything.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu
No deal it is then...
We might not have yellow gilets, but have heard a few suggestions that one way to turn the debate might be a general strike. Anyone got the guts for that and would it have any legs (assuming - perhaps unfairly - that a big chunk of leave voters might already be retired)?
Maybe, just maybe, Magic Grandpa ain't so magic after all...
It's almost as if he's always been a Leaver. Whodathunkit?
Anyone who's surprised by that hasn't been paying attention. It's labour policy, which is why I couldn't vote labour even if we had an election.
Maybe, just maybe, Magic Grandpa ain’t so magic after all…
It’s almost as if he’s always been a Leaver. Whodathunkit?
Your razor sharp insight is as ever, rare, but welcome. Well done!
What a depressing read. But it's alright… if May gets her deal, which some MPs fear might trap us in a customs union without any say over trade deals, changed so that we're definitely going to be trapped in a customs union without any say over trade deals, Corbyn will be happy with it. Labour MPs, members, supports and voters can just lump it. Three cheers for the absolute boy!
Can anyone answer this? Norway plus or Canada plus plus have been mooted as options, but no one mentions Swizterland. They're not in the EU, EEA or customs union but have a free trade deal with the EU. So why isn't every Brexiter saying "we want to be like Switzerland"??
Anyone who’s surprised by that hasn’t been paying attention. It’s labour policy, which is why I couldn’t vote labour even if we had an election.
Labour have always stated they respect the referendum result, have you all not heard that for the last two years? However, the 6 tests make it pretty much impossible as would never get a deal that passes them so that actually tells you they won't be leaving at all.
Again, you all seem to be missing the difficult game that has to be played to not be seen as "enemy of the people", not going against half you voters etc,.
we want to be like Switzerland”??
Schengen.
a general strike. Anyone got the guts for that
Yes. It's that or burn Westminster to the ground at this point. The absolute state of our politicians at the moment.
Kerley, the six tests apply to Tory brexit, they don't apply to Labour's own brexit.
Again, you all seem to be missing the difficult game that has to be played to not be seen as “enemy of the people”, not going against half you voters etc,.
Yep.
And what's more there needs to be a better Government in place to deal with all the fall-out from Brexit.
Not forgetting all the other issues in the World too.
See, this just stinks of English nationalism and jingoism.
I'm not certain if this was aimed at me or the people who thought the Irish with their continuing membership would roll over as in times past. One of the limitations of text based discussion. My comment was aimed at the latter group who have failed to adapt to changing times.
I also wish to apologise to Binners who I may have criticised over his Corbyn stance. Today's Guardian interview above has done for him as a rational chap in my eyes. If you want to move the direction of state subsidy you don't leave a club that is interventionist in outlook. You stay and make changes from within.
The whole things looks more hopeless by the day.
If you want to move the direction of state subsidy you don’t leave a club that is interventionist in outlook
Don't agree.
You dismantle the worst of the Neo-libralism within your Government.
The right have a managed a decent programme of destruction whilst we've been members of the EU.
Agree with sandwich, he's just blown up his credibility by pushing for brexit at any cost. if he thinks that leaving the EU will lead to us being anything less than a mini USA he's properly deluded.
No wonder labour are polling so poorly in the face of utter Tory chaos
Sandwich
...I also wish to apologise to Binners who I may have criticised over his Corbyn stance. Today’s Guardian interview above has done for him as a rational chap in my eyes...
I was caught out by Corbyn too.
I thought here's a return to principled Labour politicians when he first reared his head, but his feet of clay revealed themselves when it came to the question of Trident. Opposed to nuclear weapons, but supporting the retention of Trident? Even the arch Tory Enoch Powell didn't think nuclear weapons did anything useful. (It's worth reading his opinion)
Yup, he's just another politician.
I don't fancy the choices of vote for any middle of the road English voter at the moment. Would you like a shit sandwich, or this iced shit gateau?
If there's one thing that's clear, and this is becoming evident in other countries, foreign billionaires should not be entrusted with control over our mass media.
He's only reiterating Labour policy. It's a stupid policy, but that's another matter.
I thought Labour policy, as voted by conference, was not to rule out a second referendum in the event of a Brexit which didn't satisfy the six tests, and the absence of a GE?
Their composite motion:
Conference welcomes Jeremy Corbyn’s determined efforts to hold the Tories to account for their disastrous negotiations. Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU, but when people voted to ‘take back control’ they were not voting for fewer rights, economic chaos or to risk jobs. Conference notes the warning made by Jaguar Land Rover on 11.9.18, that without the right deal in place, tens of thousands of jobs there would be put at risk.
Conference notes that workers in industries across the economy in ports, food, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, energy, chemicals, in our public services and beyond are worried about the impact of a hard Brexit on livelihoods and communities.
Conference believes we need a relationship with the EU that guarantees full participation in the Single Market. The Brexit deal being pursued by Theresa May is a threat to jobs, freedom of movement, peace in Northern Ireland and the NHS. Tory Brexit means a future of dodgy trade deals and American-style deregulation, undermining our rights, freedoms and prosperity. This binds the hands of future Labour governments, making it much harder for us to deliver on our promises. Conference notes Labour has set six robust tests for the final Brexit deal. Conference believes Labour MPs must vote against any Tory deal failing to meet these tests in full.
Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option and calls upon Labour MPs to vigorously oppose any attempt by this Government to deliver a no-deal outcome. Conference notes that when trade unions have a mandate to negotiate a deal for their members, the final deal is accepted or rejected by the membership. Conference does not believe that such important negotiations should be left to government ministers who are more concerned with self-preservation and ideology than household bills and wages.
Stagnant wages, crumbling services and the housing crisis are being exacerbated by the government and employers making the rich richer at working people’s expense, and not immigration. Conference declares solidarity and common cause with all progressive and socialist forces confronting the rising tide of neo-fascism, xenophobia, nationalism and right wing populism in Europe.
Conference resolves to reaffirm the Labour Party’s commitment to the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 including no hard border in Ireland.
Conference believes that there is no satisfactory technological solution that is compliant with the Good Friday Agreement and resolves to oppose any Brexit deal that would see the restoration of a border on the island of Ireland in any form for goods, services or people.
Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.
If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.
This should be the first step in a Europe-wide struggle for levelling-up of living standards, rights and services and democratisation of European institutions Labour will form a radical government; taxing the rich to fund better public services, expanding common ownership, abolishing anti-union laws and engaging in massive public investment.
Didn't hear Corbyn on R4. Is he deviating from that?
Don't let the actual policy get in the way. Better for the Corbyn haters to just continue to make stuff up.
As a remainer I am disappointed that the Labour party did not come out as 100% remain but I am not going to ignore all of their other policies and their intentions of at least trying to bring about a fairer society with more focus on less privileged and less focused on the rich.
And all that really matters is what happens when May's deal is rejected and what Labour MPs vote on after that. They will be voting against a No Deal so where does that leave us?
Guardian article (although I suppose they no doubt counts as Corbyn haters https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu
At least he explicitly recognises 60% of labour supporters voted remain - thanks for screwing me over Jezza - much appreciated.
Martinhutch, you need to keep your eye on the pea under the thimble. As I said before, the six tests only apply to the Tory brexit, not the Labour one.
It's there explicitly in the text you quoted.
I suppose you could argue your way through that loophole, but it is alongside a firm commitment to keep access to the single market, a firm rejection of no-deal and a hard border in NI, and a commitment to campaign for a 2nd ref should other options be unavailable (which they will be after Jan 11).
So basically, any move towards no deal and rejection of the option of a 2nd ref goes directly against policy as set at conference.
My reading of Labour party policy is that all bets are off if there is a GE and they get in, however. Not that this appears likely, given their rather dismal polling.
I was caught out by Corbyn too.
Me too. He got me voting for Labour at a GE election for the first time.
The last two years have made it clear that he wants Brexit. Labour "policy" was changed so that he could push Brexit, and pretend to his party that he is doing otherwise. Anyone still claiming to fall for it is either slow on the uptake, or playing the same game as him.
The worst thing about this is that it is clear that those who stand to lose out most because of this hard Brexit he has whipped for (outside CU & SM) are those who he claims to be in politics to support.
Of all the magic unicorns presently being presented by all factions of all parties, Corbyn’s are the most fantastical.
That leaving will usher in a socialist utopia.
Absolutely delusional. Everyone knows, particularly those sat silently on the benches behind him, that it will deliver the polar opposite. A dystopian, deregulated, right-wing, neo-liberal tax-haven/sweatshop that’s merely an outpost of the US
Our labour MP, no Corbyn fan, is now openly pushing for a second referendum
If he knows 60% of labour voted remain, surely Labour policy should be remain.
He will never get his GE and even if he does, he will loose it.
martinhutch, that's not some little loophole to argue through, it's a big gaping chasm deliberately inserted precisely to enable Corbyn to ram through any labour brexit. It's been very carefully wordsmithed for this purpose and if you've listened very carefully to all the interviews by senior labour shadow ministers like Keir Starmer you'll have heard that they are careful to avoid contradicting it. As he (quite legitimately) points out, the six tests are based on Tory ministers' own words, it's a tool to hold them to account. Labour never promised to meet the six tests and "access to" the single market is meaningless verbiage. All countries have "access".
They could literally vote down May's deal, win a GE and ram May's deal through parliament, just crossing out "May" and replacing with "Corbyn" in the title. That would be 100% compatible with Labour policy. Oh, perhaps they would be a bit clearer about staying in the CU, which is pretty much implied by the backstop to May's deal but not actually stated as an end goal.
Well, that Corbyn interview makes for pretty depressing, if entirely predictable reading.
Just confirming what we all knew, as he’s demonstrated it consistently for decades. He’s a hardline Brexiteer who is absolutely determined to drive it through, despite pretty much all his MPs, most labour voters and the vast majority of his fabled ‘membership’ holding the opposing view
Utterly depressing
What a bit of a mess.
To be honest, May's deal (as stupid and contrary as it is ) is the lesser evil.
I'd sooner trust the EU to be sensible and tell us what's what than leave it to the muppets in our own parliament, they've all repeatedly proven that they are at best, incompetent. Unfortunately it's not just incompetence at play here, it's weapons grade cross party weaseling and duplicity.
What a bit of a mess.
The profanity filter works then 😉
If he knows 60% of labour voted remain, surely Labour policy should be remain.
I read that and thought it must be a typo.
60% of labour voters don’t want Brexit so errr, we’ll be pushing through Brexit if we get in.
I'll just leave this here to annoy Binners:
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-new-guardian-business-model.html
