How many votes will be gain from such a stance?
Dunno, but ironically the Tories are worried about Brexit losing them youth votes. I'd have imagined that Labour could also do that calculation and balance lost votes from xenophobic morons against gained votes from young people, who want a future.
SNP in Scotland maybe, Kerley, but the Liberals have disappointed so many so often their MPs would do better just joining one side or the other and being part of one clique or another in the major two.
http://liberal.org.uk/policies/
The way the British and US electoral systems work means there is no place for more than two parties. You need a multi-round election system and/or a degree of proportional representation for third parties to have any infuence.
It is also worth bearing in mind that large proportion of voters don't change their vote (or only rarely) and capturing a large proportion of the younger voters could lock in quite an advantage for the long term future.
Of course most politicians don't think past next week.
It is the fact that they, and we, are still talking about the voting consequences of making the right decision which shows the failure of our main political parties. It's like convening a focus group to iron out the demographics of your response while Putin is bombing Manchester.
Leadership is about giving direction, not taking it.
Excuse the potentially stupid question, but what happens with the N/S Irish border in a No Deal Brexit Scenario? There would have to be border checks wouldn’t there?
Yes, as this would now be the external border of the EU.
But... the good Friday agreement is a legally binding international treaty which clearly states that there can be no physical infrastructure on the border. Hence the contradiction, and the (legal) neccessity for the backstop.
The bottom line is that the EU will defend the interests of its member state above the interests of the one thats just thrown its toys out of the pram and flounced off. They simply will not budge on this. Its totally non-negotaible. As they've pointed out repeatedly for the last 2 years.
To the EU, the Irish government and the vast majority of people of Northern Ireland the good Friday agreement, and peace in Ireland, is absolutely sacrasanct. And its a sign of the sheer bloody brainless recklessness of the Brexiteers that they think sacrificing peace in Ireland 'a price worth paying'
Labour have the same problem that the Tories have, which is that Brexit split the country on a previously non-existent axis.
No, the axis was there - it was just much better hidden becasue even the thickest racists knew that it was generally frowned upon to be totally open about xenophobia. Howeevr all the anti-immigration rhetoric empowered them and made the division much more publically open - people have now come down solidly on one side of the fence or the other and are digging in, entrenched in their beliefs and conspiracy theories, ignorant of facts.
It's not a good place to be in.
Can anyone find the link that was posted earlier (in the last couple of days) the article about trading on WTO rules. Trailed back but can't see it.
Thanks
Was it one of these?
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-option/
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872
Can anyone find the link that was posted earlier (in the last couple of days) the article about trading on WTO rules. Trailed back but can’t see it.
Remember we need to reapply to join the WTO. And there are only 3 countries in the world I think trading solely on WTO. That is where that starting point is.
</lurk>
Or one of the WTO articles here ? - I forget which was originally linked, but it's somewhere in the blog
https://www.explaintrade.com
<lurk>
The 30% figure wasn't an assertion, it was a total guess, hence the question mark and the way the sentence was phrased. Of course I have no idea beyond that. But feel free to make a different guess.
And pick up as many from the opposition
The key point is that a GE is not a single issue vote. What if you are a neoliberal but pro remain? How can you vote Labour? I voted Labour even though I am remain. Thiswhat I meant by a constitutional problem.
If house prices do tumble it will just make them cheaper for foreign people to buy .
This ultimately will put prices back , up further shafting the British people.
Even if your house devalues at £800 a month it’s no different to losing £800 paying rent.
Saw this earlier on a forum in a thread about house buying earlier. The long list of people who said they'd vote out or made it clear they'd vote out without saying as much in the first few pages of this thread don't post on this thread anymore, but it's clear they haven't changed their minds.
Edit: If I'd still lived in Wales at the last election I'd have voted Plaid, Molgrips.
And there are only 3 countries in the world I think trading solely on WTO.
One. Mauritania. And I'm not certain they still are any more.
I'd like to think that the likes of Soubry, Morgan and Clarke might be having a cosy cuppa with Starmer and maybe Cable and trying to get some kind of Unity Opposition going. If we can't have existing parties governing in the national interest (which is to cancel Brexit), and if we can't have a government of unity to get past this, then couldn't the grown ups just put aside their (temporarily insignificant) differences for a short time?
I live in hope. There is only one outcome that is in the national interest - and that is to forget this whole silly mess and go back, cap in hand.
Racist xenophobia swung the referendum. That is fairly sweeping. Don't suppose you have any polling results or surveys to back up that claim?
My question was aimed at Crazy legs.
Racist xenophobia swung the referendum. That is fairly sweeping. Don’t suppose you have any polling results or surveys to back up that claim?
Hi Ninfan!
How's it going?
It's been a while, mate, but glad you're back.
Edit: If I’d still lived in Wales at the last election I’d have voted Plaid, Molgrips.
I was tempted but in my constituency they were far behind, which I've again shows why FPTP is so bad.
As it was my Labour vote was worth a lot and help depose a Tory MP which is a good result even if I preferred Plaid offer Labour.
I’ve just seen, on another forum, a solution proposed to solve the Irish border problem.
Basically the RoI rejoins the UK.
So simple, can’t think why no one is talking about this option in the news.
The thing is, I can no longer tell if it’s just trolling.
Racist xenophobia swung the referendum. That is fairly sweeping. Don’t suppose you have any polling results or surveys to back up that claim?
There was plenty at the time of people citing immigration as a reason to vote, it's a reason it's been in every tory manifesto for years - though despite having the tools to address some of the concerns they did nothing - just today they dropped the 10k target.
I’ve just seen, on another forum, a solution proposed to solve the Irish border problem.
Basically the RoI rejoins the UK.
So simple, can’t think why no one is talking about this option in the news.
The thing is, I can no longer tell if it’s just trolling.
Run it by Karen Bradley - she'd probably think it was a go-er.
though despite having the tools to address some of the concerns they did nothing
Thats unfair. They sent a few advertising vans around towns trying to stoke things up.
Edukator sort of outlines what he thinks Corbyn should do - no one else has given anything even slightly specific. Just as before - banal generalisations.
His party is split - he comes out strongly for remain then the party splits due to what I refer to as the Burnham tendency - those who fear losing leave votes even thos we know this is rubbish. there are well over a hundred of them - and his internal critics will intensify their attacks on him plus he becomes "the enemy of democracy" in the press
The current polling seems to I dictate that labour are losing support to the lib Dems, which could I indicate that the fence sitting is starting to backfire.
Corbyn can say that he respected the referendum, but two years have passed, and as we are now heading to a no deal Brexit (thanks to a broken Tory party, with an intransigent PM), which does not remotely resemble what was suggested by the Leave campaign two years ago, and will damage those that Labour represent, he thinks we should stop the clock and cancel A50. He won't. He wants Labour members to think that he is following "their" policy approach, but it's all bullshit… he wants Brexit, and doesn't mind if it's a no deal Brexit. In fact, a more damaging Brexit suits him just fine, as he has more chance of gaining power at the next election after we have left.
The current polling seems to I dictate that labour are losing support to the lib Dems, which could I indicate that the fence sitting is starting to backfire.
Which unless we have an election the impact of is sweet _ all, If an election is called then the platform they stand on will be much more important. It really depends if the next election falls this or the other side of Brexit.
If Corbyn shits himself over Brexit, remainers will remember even in 2022, like they did with the lib Dems and student fees.
Labour is going to be split either way, Corbyn would just rather end up quietly in the anti-eu camp.
like they did with the lib Dems and student fees.
So who are they going to vote for? Many will never vote Lib Dem again
In fact, a more damaging Brexit suits him just fine, as he has more chance of gaining power at the election after we have left.
Yeah, of course that is what he wants to happen.
Tick. Tock. (I put that on for you as you seem to have left it off your last post)
Corbyn Still. Didn't. Win. He stood on a 'we'll implement Brexit best' platform and still lost. What is it they say about conducting the same experiment and expecting a different result?
If this shit show goes to the wire and he pulls it out of the bag I will sing his praises for the rest of my life but I'm afraid I don't have much faith.
We need an opposition, at the moment we have complicity.
Corbyn Still. Didn’t. Win. He stood on a ‘we’ll implement Brexit best’ platform and still lost. What is it they say about conducting the same experiment and expecting a different result?
You could say the same about inferring brexit intentions from a general election which was on a massive range of issues.
Health sec Matt Hancock on newsnight yesterday said with a chuckle that the NHS was now the world's largest buyer of fridges to handle medicine stockpiles in case of a no deal brexit.
There's so much insanity in that, even worse plenty of Leavers still think no deal is a good thing.
Health sec Matt Hancock on newsnight yesterday said with a chuckle that the NHS was now the world’s largest buyer of fridges to handle medicine stockpiles in case of a no deal brexit.
He was backtracking on his commitment that people would not die on PM yesterday.
Liz Truss reported on saying in cabinet we need to have cobra meetings every day after recess to deal with no-deal brexit. To need national emergency commitee meetings for something we are about to do of the governments own choosing is ridicolous!
If Corbyn went Pro-remain, bit of a gamble but would probably achieve far more than he otherwise would do. So many traditional labour supporters see him as too left-wing so he'd never be PM anyway. At least this way he'd be remembered as doing something useful
The fact that the government has basically done zero planning so far for a No Deal that is looking more likely by the day, and that they've put the sum total of £2 billion aside to cover everything that might crop up, would suggest that they absolutely no concept of the scale of the potential problems.
We really are being governed by total imbeciles
he wants Brexit, and doesn’t mind if it’s a no deal Brexit.
Where did you hear that?
All this talk that Labour should switch to remain, that's just wishful thinking. Progressives have often voted Labour because Labour policies have traditionally also been progressive, but we are now finding out that we have no real progressive party. Well, we do, but FPTP stops that happening.
Labour does not need to "switch to Remain", Labour is in favour of stopping Brexit. It is only a tiny minority of people in key positions that are pro Leave. Unfortunately that includes the leader. If you can't read that from his actions and words, then he is obviously a very able politician. The opposite position is that he isn't pro Leave, but is ineffective. You decide. He's lost my vote, and if we're still talking about his long game on Brexit in March, I suspect I will be far from alone in wishing I could vote Labour, but knowing I can not.
The fact that the government has basically done zero planning so far for a No Deal that is looking more likely by the day, and that they’ve put the sum total of £2 billion aside to cover everything that might crop up, would suggest that they absolutely no concept of the scale of the potential problems.
We really are being governed by total imbeciles
They shouldn't have to deal with a no deal, that should be a line that will not be crossed. Ever.
They shouldn’t have to deal with a no deal, that should be a line that will not be crossed. Ever.
If only they could have legislated to rule that one out. through their own incompetence they now have to prepare for it (while refusing to consider a 2nd vote)
The fact that No Deal is even a possibility, and now a scary potential reality, stands as a testement to the complete incompetence of the government, and the total uselessness of an opposition (in name only) who's job it apaprently is to hold them to account
To need national emergency commitee meetings for something we are about to do of the governments own choosing is ridicolous!
No deal isn't the governments choice. It's something that parliament might impose if May's deal isn't voted through. In reality the goverment would love to remain. Only thing is, all those pesky voters voting to leave.
And all Mps are off for 2 weeks. 100 days to Brexit and with no agreement in place they bugger off.
How you lot are not down the streets, protesting and making your voice heard is depressing.
He was backtracking on his commitment that people would not die on PM yesterday.
Yes - I noticed that too.
Only a few weeks ago I was traducing them for saying 'at least no one will actually die' was the most positive thing that anyone could say about Brexit. And now he can't even say that with a straight face.
Incidentally - has anyone yet come up with a specific and non-fantastical reason why Brexit, of any kind, is a good idea?
