More like throwing the board up in the air because you’re losing the game.
Obviously the start of a circular, boardgame-based, theoretical argument here..........
But what if in 'winning' you then can't afford the rent or mortgage on the house you are sitting in whilst 'playing the game'?
What if it turns out that what you thought was the end of the game (sovrunty) was actually illusory and you end up out in the street trying to play the game with a soggy board and missing pieces because the bailiff trashed your front room?
There'll be all sorts of bleating about 'not wanting this', but it'll be too late by then.......
You’re arguing that the sensible thing to do is remain in the EU because the alternatives are much worse.
Correct, if oversimplified. The sensible thing to do is remain in the EU is because it provides us with an absolute shitload of benefits and advantages.
Yet at the same time you’re arguing that we should unilaterally suspend the single most important principle and foundation of our system of government because we don’t like the results of it.
Incorrect. A referendum has little place in a representative democracy. I've literally just said this, we elect politicians to make decisions for us, if that weren't the case then we wouldn't need or have politicians.
You're conflating an advisory referendum with a mandatory election vote. They are very different things.
we should unilaterally suspend the single most important principle and foundation of our system of government because we don’t like the results of it
No. That we should question votes cast off the back of campaigns based on lies, bigotry, cheating and uninformed opinion.
The vote told us that we are a country divided and a lot of people are unhappy, that needs tackling rather than ignoring.
And tackling it will need basically need cash, inward investement, call it what you will. Where is that going to come from if we basically torpedo our own economy?
if you can bear it, take a look at the mail homepage. i thought i'd step outside my echo chamber and see how the other half see it. its fascinating...
https://www.****/home/index.html
True also, but referenda are direct questions to the people where the usual rules of representation are suspended.
Where does it say that?
No. That we should question votes cast based on campaigns based on lies, bigotry, cheating and uninformed opinion.
& accept that people may change their minds based on what the result really looks like.. The 1975 vote was supposed to be permanent. Where did we get the right to change it?
Wow, the forum must be completely borked as it has allowed a Daily Fail link.
That WILL get the attention of STW Towers!
“That’s your bloody GDP. Not ours.”
And yet I am constantly being reminded that I ‘must respect’ the result of a vote where that was the level of the people who ‘won’.
I don't know if you're missing the point or I am. My understanding of the thrust of that comment is that many voters in various parts of the UK don't relate to macroeconomics, to rises and falls in national GDP, to the growth of the whole economy that they see reported to them. They see a decade of austerity, contracting public services, scarce jobs in their area, stagnant incomes. So when someone tells them about the risk to growth, it's 'someone else's' growth, not theirs.
People who think this way are the natural prey of populists, of the right wing, who deliver them villains and scapegoats such as immigrants, EU and Westminster who are taking their money and jobs.
The rise in populist governments and movements following economic crises is not an accident.
And tackling it will need basically need cash, inward investement, call it what you will. Where is that going to come from if we basically torpedo our own economy?
Changing our immigration policy to be more inline with mainland Europe shouldn't be expensive, it's ten minutes of arguing in parliament.
We seem to have been able to afford to spend £500m/week on Brexit so far. I wonder what we could've bought with that instead? Give it to the NHS maybe?
Still, it'll all get cheaper in the end.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46338585
"The government's Brexit deal will leave the UK £100bn worse off a year than if it had remained in the EU, a study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research has said."
Oh.
My understanding of the thrust of that comment...
I fear you may be giving them too much credit.
Tea and Kittens blocks it if I click it anyway!!
It's amazing how many people know exactly what the people wanted from Brexit but manage to put up contradictory positions. The one thing the can't possibly do is ask if that is the one people wanted.
I don’t know if you’re missing the point or I am.
I take it to mean that the person in question didn't have a clue what GDP is or how it underpins their lives - unsatisfactory thought they may be - and would make their lives immeasurably worse if it tanked by 10% or so. In that sense, it is actually the woman who is saying it's GDP as there will be less to filter down once the bigger snouts have been in the trough.
Simplistic politics being sold to angry and ignorant people is nothing new as you note. Quite why I am expected to 'respect' it is something I haven't yet been able to figure out, though.
You can respect it at the same level as '24 hours to save the NHS', or virtually every other political campaigning line. Simplistic politics is the only politics for large parts of the voting population.
It's not that the referendum result means you have to enthusiastically endorse every bit of naivety and misinformation that got us to that point, but that you should recognise that a re-run would be unlikely to deliver a better-informed electorate.
It's the truth behind the Gove line about 'having had enough of experts'. Politics is about making an emotional connection with a voter, not showing them a graph. I can make an emotional connection with the idea of a 10% drop in GDP, but only because I know the carnage it will wreak on people's lives.
Basically, Remain would have to find a way to fight as dirty as Leave did.
If Theresa May categorically says we won't be having a second referendum, then you can be sure it will not happen.
Like parliament definitely voting on her deal last week. That was HAPPENING.
Or all the times she told us we WILL NOT be having a snap election.
I'll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
Quite why I am expected to ‘respect’ it is something I haven’t yet been able to figure out, though.
Because the alternative is that we go back to fighting over stuff with those left standing getting their way. Is that what you want?
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
If it was conclusively leave with no deal (i.e. the referendum was an STV type thing, leading to a 60-40 type result) then I would have to conclude this country isn't for me any more. Which would be lucky as I'd likely lose my job in a couple of years anyway.
I don't know where else I'd go, (only options are USA on work visa or Australia on a family-ish based visa) neither of which really appeal.
It wasn’t a silly answer. It was entirely serious. I’m in a fortunate position to relatively easily do it.
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
If somebody was stupid enough to put that as the leave option then back to Oz.
To get that as an option on a ballot would require a majority of MP's to vote it through.
then I would have to conclude this country isn’t for me any more.
The result changes nothing about the way the country is so why are you still here?
We are seriously considering leaving as the country has gone down hill since the 80's (wonder what caused that) but will probably find that the grass is not always greener (especially as you mention the US!)
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
Is the you in this question actually us, or are we imagining we are someone (like the PM) in a position to make a meaningful decision? If the 'you' is in fact us and leave the country is considered a silly answer, we are but flotsam and jetsam, bobbing along in whatever way fate takes us.
If we ended up in a no deal brexit (either because it was voted for or the clock was allowed to run down and it just happened anyway) I'd be thankful I've got a few savings as I'm pretty sure my job would go and I'd completely reevaluate my expectations for the rest of my life. 'Making do' would be the best I guess I could hope for. The house I own is a very gammon friendly bungalow so I'd maybe try and sell it to a naive retiree before house prices crashed and look to invest it in gold maybe. Then I'd invoke my Scottish heritage and move north of the boarder and fight like hell for a new independence referendum and spend the rest of my days living amongst people I have more in common with. This is my plan anyway to be honest - just losing my job and the downturn in the economy would accelerate it happening sooner.
The result changes nothing about the way the country is so why are you still here?
The result would have a massive and potentially catastrophic change to the way the country is.
If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
What would you do?
Again I'm repeating myself, but. "No deal" is not something which anyone with an ounce of brainpower and integrity should be considering as something anyone would voluntarily choose. The clue is in the name, read those two words again carefully and have a think. It's like refusing to go shopping because there's a sale on.
The notion that "no deal" is being postured as an option is a madness. No deal is a lack of options, it's what happens if we run out of them. In the smorgasbord of lies presented during this debacle, "no deal is better than a bad deal" is right up there as one of the biggest. As I said, think about it - how can that sentence possibly make any sense? It's self-evidently nonsense. Getting five pounds knocked off when you're buying a car is a bad deal, but it's still better than paying full price.
We have a deal. The UK and the EU27 are in agreement that it's the best deal that we're going to get. If were to have a third referendum, the only logical question is "now that we know what the deal looks like, do you still want to leave?"
Incidentally. Before the referendum we were promised a deal, we've got what is arguably a far better deal than anyone predicted was actually possible, and yet the leavers still don't like it. It does rather beg the question, what on Earth were you expecting?
The argument now seems to be "we didn't want a good deal, we wanted a bad one!" I don't recall seeing that on the side of a bus during the referendum campaign.
I absolutely ****ing despair, I really do.
We have a deal. The UK and the EU27 are in agreement that it’s the best deal that we’re going to get. If were to have a third referendum, the only logical question is “now that we know what the deal looks like, do you still want to leave?”
This x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
& the campaign should be remove as much emotion as possible, have no straplines & just deal in cold hard facts.
I wouldn't do anything if we No Deal.
I'm a left leaning Scot so I'm used to being in a minority in a societal/political sense.
Actually, I'd vote for Scotch independence again if we get another chance.
Other than that I'd still go to work, play music, make beer and ride my bike. I'm a millennial so am used to jobs not being very reliable. So I live within my means, always expecting to be suddenly out of work for 6 or 12 months. So if my job disappears I'll just get another, or work self employed. I have lots of education, training and experience so can generally get by.
What would you do?
Again I’m repeating myself, but. “No deal” is not something which anyone with an ounce of brainpower and integrity should be considering as something anyone would voluntarily choose. The clue is in the name, read those two words again carefully and have a think. It’s like refusing to go shopping because there’s a sale on.
The notion that “no deal” is being postured as an option is a madness. No deal is a lack of options, it’s what happens if we run out of them. In the smorgasbord of lies presented during this debacle, “no deal is better than a bad deal” is right up there as one of the biggest. As I said, think about it – how can that sentence possibly make any sense? It’s self-evidently nonsense. Getting five pounds knocked off when you’re buying a car is a bad deal, but it’s still better than paying full price.
We have a deal. The UK and the EU27 are in agreement that it’s the best deal that we’re going to get. If were to have a third referendum, the only logical question is “now that we know what the deal looks like, do you still want to leave?”
I believe everything you have just typed. It could have been me typing it. However....to a deluded proportion of our population no deal is close to what they wanted. They have been sold some sort of line about this being 'taking back control'. The 3rd referendum you mention should of course be between the Maybot deal and remaining but I don't think that would make it to the ballot paper.
The result would have a massive and potentially catastrophic change to the way the country is.
I was referring more to the people in the country and the culture of the country. Whether it would have a potentially catastrophic change is just that, potentially
"No deal" has to be defined before it can be put on any referendum ballot paper. Currently all that could go on there (unless you're completely bonkers) is:
Take May's deal
Cancel Brexit
These are well defined and actionable outcomes. "No deal", as simple as it sounds, will still need to be defined and negotiated to an extent. E.g. what happens to air traffic, security, the payment to the EU. Also, putting anything like Norway Plus or Super Canada won't happen until these have been negotiated and defined in the same way.
While the original referendum had no defined course of action for the "Leave" option, I can't see this happening again due to exactly what has led us to this point now. Lessons will have been learnt..... I hope
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
I would reluctantly sell my business assets and up-sticks back to Germany with my German wife. Take early retirement and get a "living wage" from her aging parents to look after them in their final years.
Now you have 3 silly answers. Only perhaps they are not silly and are more or less indicative of what might happen (and is happening all around us as more and more business's move (some of their operations) to the continent just in case). Thinking it is a silly answer doesn't make it less likely or true.
I’m a left leaning Scot so I’m used to being in a minority in a societal/political sense.
Actually, I’d
votecampaign for Scotch independence again if we get another chance.
to a deluded proportion of our population no deal is close to what they wanted
You know, I do wonder how many people actually fall into that category. I suspect it's not as many as the shouty corners of the Internet would have us believe.
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country.
A silly answer would be saying "no deal" is a good idea. You got serious responses. Considering the likelyhood of Rees-Mogg and the offshore elites ending up in charge after a no deal leaving the country would be very tempting.
That is not a solution open to all admittedly but calling it silly is, well, silly.
I mean after all plenty of the brexit elites are sodding off (those who did actually have any ties to the UK anyway) so why shouldnt those who voted against it?
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
Quite likely lose my Job and my Wife would lose her job and we would lose our home and end up on breadline\street\queueforohrriblesocialhousing.
Also, from my understanding, options like Canada PLus or Norway plus are options that are still there AFTER we have left the EU on the terms of the current proposed deal. This current deal is only setting uout the first stages of out exit. If we turn round in the transitional period to follow and agree to continue our relationship with the EU on terms similar to Norway, then there is no problem with the current deal with us doing just that? OK , so we accept freedom of movement and have a customs union, but at least the Backstop doesn't need to come into play then either..... or am I missing something?
For those who are struggling with how screwed we are going to be this speech to The Unversity of Liverpool by Sir Ivan Rogers will lay it out for you. It's a long read and you may need a coffee or two. Sir Ivan knows how EU works unlike say Dominic Raab or David Davis. It boils down to 'you don't stop when you are tired. You stop when the gorilla is'.
Don't worry folks. It'll be reet
Dave comes riding to the rescue
Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse?
Canada PLus or Norway plus are options
I don't know about Canada, but Norway & the other scandi countries have already said they would block our membership to the EFTA club & essentially the Norway deal would be carrying on as we are now, just without any say in the EU...
Social housing's ok. If there was more of it and/or private rents weren't so high perhaps those that felt hard done by enough to vote leave wouldn't have.
options like Canada PLus or Norway plus are options that are still there AFTER we have left the EU on the terms of the current proposed deal.
I think that's what they meant by 'blind Brexit' as in leaving without knowing what we'll be able to get afterwards.
If there was more of it and/or private rents weren’t so high perhaps those that felt hard done by enough to vote leave wouldn’t have.
Given how many young people this impacts it's as if there is not a correlation between the 2 things.
By all means we need to fix the housing issues in the country but that won't help fix the underlying issues of being left behind so many feel. In those areas it's way more than housing and people were offered a magic pill to get out of it.
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
Apologies in advance but just to add to the silly answers, i already left. My issue is that brexit is effecting my right to reside and my freedom of movement. I would happily change nationality but that is not something that can be done over night. I was eligible to apply in Germany but then left for Spain and now have to wait some years before i am eligible to apply.
Social housing’s ok. If there was more of it
Thats the minor flaw isnt it? Thanks to flogging it all cheap and not building new stuff the supplies are low and it costs the taxpayer a shedload more in private sector rents.
Another genius tory policy.
I’ll ask again as all I got was two silly answers about leaving the country. If we had a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what would you then do?
I have family in the netherlands. I'll be looking to see if there is any way of using them ( they own business) to be employed by them to preserve my EU passport. If that does not work retire and move to the netherlands selling up here. Unless Scots independence vote looks like a goer in which case I won't move until that is sorted out