The reasons I've heard for brexit.
Nasty Nigerian nurse.
All the fish caught in Cornwall have to go to central eu fish hub to then be sent back.
Eu people claiming benefits and living in mansions at our expense.
P.s amongst our shop keeping fraternity "all the shop lifting is done by eastern europeans except when Epsom Derby is on in which case it is done by pikeys."
All of the shoplifters i have caught have been nice ,well turned out, english ladies.
Another one I heard was the NHS being ruined by excessive immigration.....there was I thinking it was 10yrs of Tory austerity that f*kd it..
All of the shoplifters i have caught have been nice ,well turned out, english ladies.
Maybe you're just too slow to catch the pros 😉
Maybe you’re just too slow to catch the pros 😉
Believe me, Mrs Zip only has to look at you to know if you're up to no good.
my mother was an ardent leave is now going to abstain if there's another ref.
Ransos why is education to University level not available to all?
I left school with one CSE and my old mans only advice was as long as you can sign your name and count your wages thats all you need?
I sharp worked out during Mrs Thatchers reign that those that got by had property and an education. It took me 12 tears of part time education to end up with an engineering degree.
Education is everything and i dont just mean "school learning" more than half of this country is very poorly educated for a first world economy.
Ransos why is education to University level not available to all?
For the reason you don't want to discuss.
So do you understand how the student loans/graduate tax works? Why is this a problem to poor students (the support is still greater for those with less cash?)
I do believe fees are way too high, but regardless it is a lifetime investment.
I’m poor (awaiting universal credit) and yet I’m studying a degree
So do you understand how the student loans/graduate tax works?
Yes.
Oldman has a point - you’re rarely disadvantaged by being better educated.
That said, please note that not all degrees (even in the same subject) are anything like equal.
Why is this a problem to poor students (the support is still greater for those with less cash?)
Because they are likely to need to borrow even more money.
my mother was an ardent leave is now going to abstain if there’s another ref.
What are her cited reasons?
Oldman has a point – you’re rarely disadvantaged by being better educated.
Of course. Do you think that is helped by the current funding model?
What are her cited reasons?
she didn't want to talk about it.
Part time minimum wage job... just like all 4 of my kids did or are doing - most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Its just a shite excuse...
Also as IGM points out do a degree that has a value like business, engineering etc.
most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Provided your parents are letting you stay at their place and feeding you no?
Just out of interest, have you asked any poor students about university funding?
Forgot to mention bursaries - £1000 at Northumbria Business school if you get a first in year 3.
Part time minimum wage job… just like all 4 of my kids did or are doing – most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Assuming you can find a full time job for the whole of summer, a very big assumption indeed. Rent and food would take most of it if parents are unable to provide it.
Both my daughters have university friends that come from miserable backgrounds- so yes and i dont for one minute think its easy and i never said it was, i just said it was available.
I know better than most what it takes to get out of that type of background, but i didnt sit and whine about the indudtrial wasteland that Maggie left behind. When your poor you have to work 3 x as hard as the middle class and 10 x harder than the landed gentry.
I drink in a pub that is full people who have inherited land, business, property. All i inherited was a funeral bill, but i am sure i can out graft and outhink most of them.
Sitting and using student loans and the current funding model as an excuse to become a "left behind" is complete bollocks.The same argument is thrown at buying a house - they are to ezpensive, the deposit is too big...
Your right Ransos its not ****ing fair but it has always been the same except maybe for a few golden years in the late 60s.
Thatchers gov. dismantled our industrial heartlands and created nothing to replace it except home ownership and shopping. Now we can sit on our arses amd moan but it changes nothing that has happened.
Unions were always pro education as they undestood the value, they even sent members kids to private school.
Education Education Education..
One of Jezza's cohorts has just been on Pienaars politics outlining the labour party's Brexit policy, such as it is.
If labour had been allowed to negotiate this deal then the EU would have been happy to disgard all the things they wouldn't have been happy to disgard for Theresa. An end to freedom of movement, maintaining all the advantages of access to the single market, while not being in the single market
Having cakes and eating them. Cakes for everyone! Hurray!!!!
Sitting and using student loans and the current funding model as an excuse to become a “left behind” is complete bollocks.The same argument is thrown at buying a house – they are to ezpensive, the deposit is too big…
It is a matter of fact that higher education and housing are both far less affordable than when I was starting out.
Agree but tax free allowances are proportionally much more generous, interest rates are a fraction of what they were, help to buy is a double edged sword in some cases. I still had to raise a 10% deposit back in 1985 which was £3300 and i was taking home £90 a week so more than six months wages for a deposit.
I also paid all my fees for my HNC HND and Degree.
^Look, I get that you grew up in a hole in the road, on a diet of powdered glass, and worked 27 hours a day from the age of two. Regardless, you seem to assume that if you're now comfortable, then everyone else can be too.
1. Education to the highest levels is available to all and dont anyone whine about student loans.
The best education is only available to the very rich.
The Sutton Trust says pupils from eight schools filled 1,310 Oxbridge places over three years, compared with 1,220 from 2,900 other school
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46470838
Its an attitude....
Positive or negative choice....
Yours appears negative...
Old man you are confusing anecdote with evidence there. Of course everything is possible, but you also have to remember that if everyone around you had done what you did then you would just be one of many over qualified people out there.
Comfortable for me is paying my bills, not flash cars,bikes,holidays or anyform of bling.
Other people may not view that as comfortable, depends on what you want.
27 hours, half a shift up North...
I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that things are harder for those at the bottom of the pile, and the cards are stacked heavily in the favour of the wealthy. That doesn’t mean opportunities aren’t there for all.
Let’s be honest, large swathes of the country will never get off their arses and graft, or support their kids through education.
You don’t need to go via Eton & Cambridge, to a city hedge fund to make a success of your life.
Degree level education opens up huge opportunities to decent jobs. Trades and apprenticeships are available to anybody with good attitude. All my builder/plumber/electrician mates struggle to find reliable apprentices - no lack of opportunities, but definately a lack of attitude.
Setting a business up in the UK is really very easy- anyone tried this in France?
yup, done both, not much difference in the current systems. In France you register and then pay 25% of turnover to URSSAF once every three months for which you get health cover and a pension. Not sure how it could be made easier. Depending on the type of business and the place you live you might have to pay "taxe professionelle foncière", for junior's ski instructing it's free but for being a landlord it cost me 465e a year.
25% of turnover not profit.... there in lies the French business problem
Autoentrepenur helps but starting a proper business in France that employs people is very very expensive.
The 25% turnover tax destroys the chance of starting a business for most por people, compared to the UKs limited company tax/accounting structure in which you can off set costs against tax etc i know where i would rather start a business.
Let’s be honest, large swathes of the country will never get off their arses and graft,
Got any proof for that beyond the Daily Mail?
25% of turnover? Are they nuts? I mean that is ok for some sorts of businesses, but ridiculous for others.
Localised proof
Mate with groundworks business
Mate with joinery business
Local farmer
Local pub
All can not get people, all pay above mimimum wage
Mate with groundworks pays £10 an hour supplys all the gear, guarantees 50 hours a week - most young lads last a week.
oldmanmtb
So do you understand how the student loans/graduate tax works? Why is this a problem to poor students (the support is still greater for those with less cash?)
I'll field this one, since it's my actual job.
1) Straight away the debt affects poorer students more than well off/rich students because the latter are less likely to incur it at all due to parental support.
2) The lending available may not cover all your expenses in which case again, parental support makes the difference between having to work while studying to pay the bills, and not- which is a big additiional stress and distraction from uni work. Getting into uni isn't the end of it, financial problems are a major reason for dropping out (more common than standalone academic failure in most institutions) and are naturally suffered far more by kids from low income backgrounds.
2a) Students not having to work to pay the bills have better access to placements and career-focused work experience which gives a massive change in outcomes. (needless to say they're way less likely to do an overseas year)
3) The biggy, attitudes to debt. If you come from a middle class family and grew up in a mortgaged house with a car on a lease and all that, then £50000 debt is still a big number but something you've got a yardstick for. If you grew up in a council house and your family lived month to month then it's a pretty much unimaginable number.
4) Impact on mobility- kids from lower incomes are massively more likely to study in their local university- affecting choice and access to top quality courses of course but also having complicated negative effects on outcome due to the life experience side of uni.
The counters. There's a sort of meme that goes around that says that the tuition fee regime hasn't had the impact on low income applications that wsa expected. And it's sort of true- but only because we could see it coming and invested massive amounts of money and effort into countering it. As a result, we've more or less managed to prevent it from being a problem- but it's still pretty much stopped the trend of improving access and now it takes more effort to stand still. The same resource would have been lifechanging for tens of thousands of kids otherwise, rather than just levelling the playing field.
Also, kids are more demanding of their uni- definitely true, and a good thing. This was happening anyway but it's pretty much the one good outcome.
Lastly, can't talk about tuition fees without mentioning that it is ALL TOTAL HORSESHIT. The increase to £9000 fees costs the taxpayer money compared to the previous cheaper regime. The repayment rate is now so low that we get less money back from that £9000 than we would have got from the previous £3300. Literally all it does, is hide some of the national debt, in the pockets of kids.
Mate with groundworks pays £10 an hour supplys all the gear, guarantees 50 hours a week – most young lads last a week.
I was a setting out engineer for 15 years and spent 5 years with a groundwork contractor. If your mate works as a subbie and he is typical of others then 50 hours will quickly turn into 70+ as a project deadline approaches not including lengthy travel time to site, 6 or 7 days a week. I work hard, but 15 years lumping steel road pins and GPS kit around site or taking survey shots on live sewers in the pi$$ing rain was enough for me, hence a change of career.
Site based work can be a demoralizing place to work for many. I know this through bitter experience.
If youngsters have a life and a family and can get other work for £1 or £2 less an hour then good luck to them.
Mate with groundworks business
Mate with joinery business
Local farmer
Local pubAll can not get people, all pay above mimimum wage
Ok but why? Why would you assume that it's because 'large swathes' of the country are lazy? You know they don't let you say no to jobs you can otherwise do, don't you?
Mikewsmith i agree that if everyone pursued hard work and education i would be one of many, my point is i run into people ( one mate i particular) who claim to be part of the "left behinds" who to be blunt "expects" to be paid a £35k for driving a forklift. You dont need to go to University but it helps, i know lads in their 20s round me who are time served joiners/plumbers and making a lot more than £40k.
Its all about attitude, brexit will test this attitude like never before as those nasty foreigners who stole their jobs have left. I have hospitality clients with their head in their hands over this- because indigenous brits do not apply for jobs.
because indigenous brits do not apply for jobs
Maybe they already have jobs? Maybe they have all the nicer jobs because if the immigrants apply for them they don't get them, because of xenophobia?
I don't know if that's true but it would not surprise me if it were. Lots of evidence to say that 'black' or Asian sounding names get passed over, so seems plausible that Eastern European ones might too.
Maybe they already have jobs? Maybe they have all the nicer jobs
Uk unemployment is currently 4.1% so probably true to some extent. And plenty of those 4.1% just wouldn't be up to site work physically or mentally, it's bloody hard. The country isn't full of workshy layabouts. There's some but statistically very few.
All fair points, so post brexit how do we service and grow our economy? How do we encourage people to be better educated and gain skills we will need?
All fair points, so post brexit how do we service and grow our economy? How do we encourage people to be better educated and gain skills we will need?
We don't stop low skilled immigration for a start and only let people in if they are skilled and earn over £30k as that will have the opposite effect. And better educated and gaining skills are not linked. It is a recent thing where it is assumed you have to go to university to be able to do any job.
