Lol chewk.
The EU didn't really exist before the so called 'great wars' where European countries were regularly at war with each other to varying degrees.
There's been no war since, so on that basis alone the EU project has been a triumph of politics and cooperation.
Also chewk, why do you use the term 'great' in the context of war? What exactly do you think is 'great' about millions of innocent people being killed?
: markedly superior in character or quality
especially : NOBLE
great of soul
10a : remarkably skilled
great at tennis
b : marked by enthusiasm : KEEN
great on science fiction
11 —used as a generalized term of approval
had a great time
it was just great
Great - also means large.
See: Great Britain. Great Wall of China.
You must (surely) have heard of WWI being called the Great War??
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-World-War-1-WW1-called-The-Great-War-Whats-the-history-behind-this-name
Yeh we all know.
I was pointing out the abuse of the word in that particular context.
Typical brexiter /fascist tactics.
I would like to remind everyone that the killfile is extremely effective at improving your internet experience when a poster won’t refrain from posting nonsense, whether it’s malicious or simply because they’re a nuisance.
What happened to Mefty?
Usually well spoken, apparently in the know and well connected with Mps in that London.
Brexit not going as planned?
Ultimately, do I think letting down the kind of people that voted for Brexit is a price worth paying
Are they inferior to you then, less deserving as a result.
fascist tactics
pot/kettle
pot/pot/kettle
Kettle kettle pot pot?
Has anyone here ever seen mefty and chewkw in the same place ,at the same time ?Makes you think, eh?
Not inferior mefty, but certainly going down a course I completely disagree with. Remember, that if a second referendum comes around with May's deal or remain, now we would have something more concrete to vote for. You don't have to permanently tie your colours to the Brexit mast. You are more than welcome to change your mind, and it would be perfectly acceptable for you to do so.
Those that continue to spout the crap and chant project fear are the lost ones, I don't think anybody actually asked the Tory MP's disputing the governments analysis what work they had done on the subject or if in fact they had even thought about the problem.
Given some stark and real life options vs the fantasy land should focus the mind of those that can actually think for themselves.
That's the thing Mike. I have not heard a lot of argument against the government's analysis. There appears to be consensus that we will be financially worse off with any Brexit scenario versus staying in the EU.
That’s the thing Mike. I have not heard a lot of argument against the government’s analysis.
Yep its only the die hard fanatics but they continue to criticise without providing any evidence of why. The bbc had 4 different ones in saying the port and stockpiling story was just rubbish because it was obviously.
His speech has no substance in uniting the people
How would you try and unite the country? I don't think that's possible. May has stripped me of my rights, separated me from my friends, colleagues and allies, and damaged my country.
I'm not uniting behind that, ever.
It would be strange for someone who voted remain to be chained to the Brexit mast, that said, if there were to be a second referendum which I still think is an unlikely option, I would be minded to vote leave as I don't like the attitude of many remainers. This thread being instrumental in that potential choice.
Bit pathetic to vote leave and shaft everyone’s future to spite them though isn’t it
I would be minded to vote leave as I don’t like the attitude of many remainers
Sorry that's a crap reason for voting either way and is the sort of thinking that leads to daft results. Vote for what you believe to be the best outcome - I'd rather have a bunch of cockwombles working for the collective good than some righteous dudes running the country into the ground.
Will of the people though.
Apparently.
if there were to be a second referendum which I still think is an unlikely option, I would be minded to vote leave
See, it sounds like your colours are currently tied to the Brexit mast mefty
Bit pathetic to vote leave and shaft everyone’s future to spite them though isn’t it
Typical Brexiter mentality really.
Yeah but think of the unicorns
mefty, I posted that I thought that there was consensus on the economic argument that we would be worse off. Rather than return in a strop why not find some economic analysis to say the opposite. It may be out there and worth discussing, but failure to provide any only highlights why those currently on the remain side of the argument may be annoyed at us all becoming poorer.
Check out those high maintenance remainers, always seeking facts, analysis, research and reasoned evaluation to base their decisions on.
Yeah but think of the unicorns
The unicorns don't fare that well ether...
Surely its not hard to have a second ref
First ref wasnt legal binding
Second ref wouldnt be legally binding
This whole will of the people thing seems a bit well.... Bobbins
This whole will of the people thing seems a bit well…. Bobbins
It's as if it turns out not all 17 million people thought the same way, or had the same ideas, or read the actual literature. Potentially that many of their views were entirely incompatible with their leave voting mates.
Still we have been presented with the result of the simplest deal in the history of deals, or perhaps it's the deal presented by simpletons and fantasists (who have also abandoned the deal they negotiated.
Again I'd love to see some good detailed analysis of how the deal presented by May will enrich the nation and improve the quality of life and the economy. I'd settle for some that presents it as not a complete disaster.
It's simple democracy to have a second vote.
Many people are now better informed, and have discovered that much of the Brexit case was pure fantasy.
We have also had a chance to evaluate the competence of the govt that would take us out in to the Great Unknown...
After Carillon, Interserve now needs rescue.
Those 350m a week are badly needed.
I'm sure we could ask a couple of Brexie Tories why they are having financial issues, if it
a) Immigrants
b) The EU
c) Immigrants from the EU
athgray - People voted for Brexit despite the economic warnings, banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
Except now it's hitting people's pockets, it will be hitting more and more people. As most sources show people are turning against brexit, selfishness will be one of the reasons people will consider their position, it's one of the most important factors people vote on.
But back to the positives... what other things apart from money will be better?
oh and people are not just banging on about the money
Plenty of arguments being made, plenty of things to talk about
athgray – People voted for Brexit despite the economic warnings, banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
Two points I would make in response to that. Firstly, I thought people voted for Brexit thinking they would be better off financially.
Secondly, in a discussion such as this I rarely mention finances, as there is a lot of to and fro and a range of economic arguments. I only did so here, because of the overwhelming opinion of EXPERTS on the subject.
I have regularly written about my feelings on this referendum and other recent referendums and finances rarely enters my argument. David Lammy summed up my thoughts and he does not bang on about money.
Surely its not hard to have a second ref
I still maintain it's not needed. Parliament could end this without a second referendum. But are there sufficient spines in the Commons?
They could legally end it, but it would cause serious credibility issues. If however they have a second ref and rig it by having three options, they could claim legitimacy.
Subscriber
They could legally end it, but it would cause serious credibility issues
Credibility isnt something they have
Firstly, I thought people voted for Brexit thinking they would be better off financially.
It wasn't a particularly important factor, if you want to get a reasonable understanding of why people voted Brexit, Matthew Goodwin has done a lot of work on it and seem to approach it with an open mind. This article seems to a good start. You will note it explodes many of the myths spouted on here.
Long article there.... Got about half way down it so far but there seems to be a bit missing there.
The reason people are trying to overturn and stop brexit is due to the massive harm it will do to the country, it is possible to do this while trying to fix society.
The conclusion many of us have come to is it will be much harder to fix the problems that created brexit from outside of the EU, hence the immediate focus is on the health and well being of the UK which can then get us back to a position of being able to move forward as a better place to live.
Outside of the EU we are screwed and divisions will increase.
Oh and....
The idea that those who went on to vote for Brexit were dispossessed white workers who live in fading seaside towns made for good copy but it was deeply misleading. Some Leavers certainly felt economically left behind, but many did not. Research has since shown that three groups were key to the Brexit vote:
Left Behind Leavers, who were working-class, struggling financially, almost never had a degree, were in their forties or fifties and most of whom did not identify with the main parties or supported the UK Independence Party.
Blue-Collar Pensioners, who were also working-class but retired, and so less likely to be struggling financially and tended to vote for Conservative.
Affluent Eurosceptics, who were much less likely to identify as working-class, more affluent, more likely to have a degree and tended to vote Conservative. While we hear much about the first two groups we have heard very little about the third.7
Sounds about what was posted on here.... Explain how brexit improves these people's lives?
And contrary to the claim that Leavers did not know what they were voting for, were misled, or engaged in an irrational backlash, an array of work has now shown how they shared clear and coherent preferences. Foremost, they wanted their nation state to have greater control over the laws that affect their daily lives and immigration to be reduced, which they felt could simply not happen so long as Britain remained in the EU.
So how does leaving the EU do that for them? What they wanted was not possible and isn't going to happen.
A masterclass in whataboutery, will achieve absolutely nothing, just repeats the same stale old arguments
and trying not the be the third unanswered post in a row but......
Discussing the reasons and underlying issues of the brexit vote and how to unite the country for a better way in a structural way is like asking this bloke how he wants to adjust his pension investments.
We have just over 100 days on the clock here and it's ticking.
The most important priority at the moment is resolving what happens at the end of March.
Given the likely outcome from the court case and the words coming from MP's remain is now actually a realistic outcome that can be put forward, it's been nothing but a pipe dream until now. This is a key point in time, this is the point where we put ourselves into a position to make society better.
Please tell me how brexit delivers this.
bugger is this another one....
First up can we hold the Mail to this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46497186
Bigger bit is BBC Suggesting May is off back cap in hand to ask for a little more please from the EU.
Rule Britania, Britania begs the wave, Britons never never shall be afraid to roll over and have our tummies tickled on behalf of the mad brexies
mefty, I did not read the whole report, however from what I read it confirms the obvious. Below is an extract from the article you linked. The article carried on in this vein.
Leavers certainly felt economically left behind, but many did not. Research has since shown that three groups were key to the Brexit vote:
Left Behind Leavers, who were working-class, struggling financially, almost never had a degree, were in their forties or fifties and most of whom did not identify with the main parties or supported the UK Independence Party.
Blue-Collar Pensioners, who were also working-class but retired, and so less likely to be struggling financially and tended to vote for Conservative.
Affluent Eurosceptics, who were much less likely to identify as working-class, more affluent, more likely to have a degree and tended to vote Conservative. While we hear much about the first two groups we have heard very little about the third.
So Brexit supporters were broken up into 3 group's
1) poor white working class disaffected voters who turned to UKIP.
2) poor retired working class pensioners who tended to support the Tories
3)Affluent degree educated Tory voting eurosceptics.
Well **** me, what a revelation that was!!!
I was also shocked to read on the same report that leave voting was not mainly driven by financial concerns. Surveys showed that disaffection with the EU drove a desire to take back control of law and decision making processes to the UK as well as a desire to control immigration levels.
I certainly found it eye opening and made me realise I had it all wrong.
I have wandered around many forums and blogs and yes as detailed in the article by Matthew Goodwin most of his observations are correct. Now i am not going to echo most comments above about how will brexit fix this because it is a simple truth that it won't.
So once again i will expand my broader concern (please note i am from as piss poor working class background in tge North of England - the very shit hole he talks about)
So i am being blunt to all these disenfranchised/left behinds - exactly how much *ing opportunity do you want?
1. Education to the highest levels is available to all and dont anyone whine about student loans.
2. There is a national shortage of trades - tried getting a tradesman to do a job for you at the moment.
3. Setting a business up in the UK is really very easy- anyone tried this in France?
I have said this before highly paid unskilled and semi skilled jobs are rare and automation will remove the last of them. Fruit and veg picking, hospitality,logistics are already automating.
I have mates who sit in this camp "my kids dont have the opportunities your kids have" thats because you sat on your arse in the pub while i held down a full time job with 4 kids and went to university part time, thats because when you got a few quid you pissed up the wall in Benidorm while i was digging the foundations out for my house. Thats because you told your kids university is a waste of time yey i have one kid who earns 3 x the national average at 28.
But above all this is the simple fact that regardless of the vote the same bunch of *s are still in charge and have more capacity to screw over poor people.
If we are going to be very very honest there is a significant part of our society that has no value going forward. This is reflected by JRMs cheap shoes and Tim slashing 37p off a burger. So we had better make sure they have enough benefits to sit in the pub and add more wealth to Bet 365
The irony of this whole shambles is that large parts of the brexit camp will bear the brunt of this -
Farmer's, pensioners and the piss poor all voted for this so when Trumps agricultural taps are opened, the NHS is "Americanised" and all of Amazons jobs are automated then it becomes interesting.
This will be no country for old, poor, unskilled people.
The double irony is that lots of people on this forum are likley to do well out of brexit. I think my business will probably grow in the medium term after brexit - but i would always vote remain regardless.
So the above makes Matthew Goodwins article no more than a set of very obvious observations.
Just a heads up for anyone in London, Tommy and his gang of racists will be out marching today
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46495595
Hope he isn't too lonely there, and that they all make it around without getting heckled and asked some serious questions.
1. Education to the highest levels is available to all and dont anyone whine about student loans.
It really isn't.
Education has precisely the square root of **** all to do with brexit or the EU though. Except perhaps ERASMUS being a nice opportunity for done.
