Admit it – had it been 52-48 the other way, YOU would be saying ‘we won, you lost etc’ – and you’d have solid ground upon which to do so.
No, I'd be saying the same thing I've been saying for the last two years - we are demonstrably a country divided and we need to do something to address that.
It also doesn’t help to keep bleating ‘advisory’ at people, because the executive made it quite clear that even though this was an ‘advisory’ vote they would treat it as if it wasn’t, even though it was.
Does that sound particularly legal to you?
First of all, government didn't have the authority to make that promise, it would require parliament.
Second, lots of things were "made quite clear." It was made quite clear to me that Cameron - himself, personally - would see things through whatever the result. That went well, didn't it. His comment post-referendum (from the link someone posted a couple of pages back) was "I don't see why I have to do all the hard shit."
We don’t ‘accept’ the result of 2016 – we are to remain in the EU
Are we to thus disenfranchise 17m voters?
See, this is what I can't accept. That 17m voters is "the will of the people" and 16m voters is "shut up, you lost." I don't particularly want another referendum, but if we were to have one it would at least stand a chance of countering the line of thinking that a statistically insignificant majority can ride roughshod over everyone else.
No one will be newly disenfranchised by us having a vote before we just walk into the “real deal” situation.
"So you want to keep having votes until you get a result you like?" argument coming in 3... 2...
If we have a vote on accepting the "real deal", will it be the last ever vote on our place in Europe? I doubt it, whichever way the vote went, and no matter what the margin. Why? Because our 2 main parties always seem to fight elections with the same or close positions on this issue in modern times.
“So you want to keep having votes until you get a result you like?” argument coming in 3… 2…
I'd be happy to see more votes in the future, indeed any party could put "leave the EU" in their manifesto for a general election and see how they get on. I'd advise them to come up with some sort of plan for this course of action first though...
If we have a vote on accepting the “real deal”, will it be the last ever vote on our place in Europe? I doubt it, whichever way the vote went, and no matter what the margin.
So be it. The one we've just had wasn't the first.
I would think the gammons would be too embarrassed to try for a good while, but that's up to them. It's a democracy, people can campaign for whatever they want.
we have a draft text!
Hopefully Jacob Rees-**** will hate it and go into a cured pork based rage.
I’d advise them to come up with some sort of plan for this course of action first though…
This is, well, one of many things that irks me. The fact that we triggered A50 with nothing at all in place.
As regular readers will know, I work with computers. When we have to make a major change to a system, we first have a meeting with everyone who needs to be involved in order to thrash out an overview of what we're doing. We then appoint a lead engineer who completes change control documentation. Amongst other things this documentation explains step-by-step what we're going to do, lists everyone involved and their responsibilities, performs a risk assessment detailing the likelihood of something going wrong and the severity of any consequences if it does, what related systems might be impacted, and our rollback / recovery plan if it all goes irrevocably tits-up. This document is then peer reviewed by other engineers to agree or suggest amendments. Finally it gets pushed under management's nose for a sign-off.
What we don't do is charge into the server room, type "shut down in 30 minutes" on the server, then turn to everyone else and go "right, now, anyone know how are we going to do this?"
yeah, but that's complicated stuff.
This is the easiest deals in history.
I've just stuck a bet on Mays deal getting voted through.
I think that most MPs are going to back at as the least worst option as they're all cowards. Rees Mogg, and the rest of the Hard Right Tory Headbangers will vote against it, but we've now seen how many of them there actually are. Less than 48.
I can't see Corbyn being able to whip this one for a vote against if the alternative is chaos. And by the time the vote comes (2 weeks?) I think it'll be close enough to squeaky bum time that MPs of both parties are going to hold their noses and vote it through, just because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
I think all this French/Spanish nonsense today is just a bit of drama so that May can loo like she's come back with a victory.
The draft text is leaking out now and is so fudged and ambiguous, in order to please both sides that I have a deep sense of foreboding that it'll get voted through. I'm sensing a build up of momentum that way and hope I'm wrong.
My wish, call me fantasist, is that the deal gets blocked and we get to no Brexit after a bit more fannying about
I’ve just stuck a bet on Mays deal getting voted through.
My gut feeling is that it's got no chance of being voted through. But I think there is one thing in your favour:
As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the leaders of all the EU27 countries also have to agree to it. So our shambolic lot can cheerfully vote it through safe in the knowledge that someone like France can say "on your velocipede" and then we get to point the finger at those dirty foreigners who are punishing us again.
What we don’t do is charge into the server room, type “shut down in 30 minutes” on the server, then turn to everyone else and go “right, now, anyone know how are we going to do this?”
Not even on a Friday after a pub lunch? Come on, you know you have.
My wish, call me fantasist, is that the deal gets blocked and we get to no Brexit after a bit more fannying about
I sincerely hope so.
Moggy paraded through the streets in sack-cloth?
Have you seen his suit? He is already doing that. How a man with so much money can dress so badly is completely beyond me.
Its mad, isn't it? Each one of those suits probably cost the same as the GDP of Portugal, yet he looks like a child who's dressing up in his dads clothes.
I'm still absolutely loving his ongoing humiliation since his battle cry for his vote of no confidence. Somebody's just been taught the difference between how influential they think they are, as opposed to how influential they actually are.
I only wished that May had faced these lunatics down two years ago instead of now. She's run scared and pandered to them for this whole process and now it turns out they can't even muster 48 letters, yet they've been dictating policy this whole time
Not even on a Friday after a pub lunch? Come on, you know you have.
I deny everything. (-:
Admit it – had it been 52-48 the other way, YOU would be saying ‘we won, you lost etc’ – and you’d have solid ground upon which to do so.
I'll admit it.
I currently say that 52-48 for Leave is too close to push this stuff through. I would also say had it been 52-48 for Remain that I would be saying "that is decided for ever now, no second vote".
That's the certainty that comes with being right.
That’s the certainty that comes with being right.
Problem is, that's what almost everyone believes.
Admit it – had it been 52-48 the other way, YOU would be saying ‘we won, you lost etc’ – and you’d have solid ground upon which to do so.
Farage said we would have to have another referendum in the event remain won narrowly
I only wished that May had faced these lunatics down two years ago instead of now. She’s run scared and pandered to them for this whole process and now it turns out they can’t even muster 48 letters, yet they’ve been dictating policy this whole time
yep and by pandering to them, communicating in soundbites promising golden unicorns, she has failed to explain the reality of the situation, and the ill informed brexiters have taken it as a rallying cry to double down on stupidity.
The draft document could not be more vague , no use whatsoever.
It has taken 2 years to get there it is going to take 20 years to get through all the details.
Because of this, Brexit will only exist in name only or not at all
The alternative no Mays deal is no brexit - she knows this and so do most folk. She has said this publicly as has Rudd - this is an attempt to get the Rabids on side.
No chance at all of it going thru unless the usual spineless suspects in labour vote for it ( flint etc) - and if they do labour is finished for ever certainly in Scotland and many other places. Any labour MP voting for Mays deal needs to be thrown out of the party. They can go to the tory party where they belong.
I cannot understand how any labour MP could vote with the toris on something so obviously damaging to the country and thus help the tories stay in power.
The alternative no Mays deal is no brexit
That would take an action of withdrawing article 50, I have yet to see anybody (among those currently making decisions) state that is an option. So the alternative to Mays deal is a no deal brexit.
Your point being?
There are always people who are bound by actions of previous generation or within the same generation.
Does that sound particularly legal to you?
Yes
First of all, government didn’t have the authority to make that promise, it would require parliament.
Yes they do or did, and no it doesn't/didn't.
When we have to make a major change to a system, we first have a meeting with everyone who needs to be involved in order to thrash out an overview of what we’re doing.
Which is all fine and dandy, but irrelevant because one major party (the EU) refused to enter into any discussions until Article 50 was triggered.
Which is all fine and dandy, but irrelevant because one major party (the EU) refused to enter into any discussions until Article 50 was triggered.
They didn't need the EU to make a plan of action, analyse the possibilities and realities, and act on facts instead of fantasy's.
MSP, just because they haven't said it yet, that doesn't mean that everyone isn't thinking it. It's the obvious outcome of this whole shitshow once it's played out a bit longer. The only risk (and I admit it's a genuine possibility, though unlikely) is that enough MPs get scared enough to vote through the agreement as it is. But with 75 Tories already vowing to vote against, is hard to see where the votes for are coming from.
MSP - both May and Rudd have said it - rejecting mays deal risks no brexit.
Why do you think they have fought so hard against the scottish case looking to clarify if the UK can withdraw a 50 unilaterally? They have lost this case in every court in the UK - it now gets an opinion from the EU court on the 27th
Can anybody tell me why we are bothered about a hard border with Ireland? I thought the whole point of leaving the EU was to stop foreigners just strolling in without so much as a by your leave. Ireland is part of the EU so surely we should be putting up as solid a border as is physically feasible?
I appreciate that this will have deleterious economic consequences but I thought that Brexit was all about prioritising #takebackcontrol over economic advantages.
A border in NI would be a focus point for terrorism.
That would take an action of withdrawing article 50, I have yet to see anybody (among those currently making decisions) state that is an option.
It is an option. Barnier mentioned that we could choose not to leave and May also mentioned it as an option. I think the EU would happily less us revoke A50 and continue as we are. I would put money on that happening but can't find any odds on it.
A border in NI would be a focus point for terrorism.
Why should we care, we're in England, it's a price worth paying. Them in NI are kinda foreign anyway.
I seem to recall that the implementation of a hard border with Eire would contravene part of the Good Friday Agreement and, as such, would be illegal. I could be wrong about that, but the big thing there would be going back to the days to The Troubles. We don't want that.
Farage said we would have to have another referendum in the event remain won narrowly
Well he certainly said it would be "unfinished business" and on that basis I don't feel minded to leave the EU on the basis of the current result.
I could be wrong about that, but the big thing there would be going back to the days to The Troubles. We don’t want that.
Its truly staggering how many brexiteers either don't care about this, or consider it a price worth paying for their delusional fantasy.
They really are that ignorant and small-minded. Yet another depressing thing we've discovered about the people who we share this sceptic isle with
We made a law that there can be no infrastructure at the border after brexit that isn't there now.
Thats a British law made in our parliament.
The G.F.A is an internationally binding treaty. We can't just rip it up.
Can anybody tell me why we are bothered about a hard border with Ireland?
Aside from being illegal, it's a fundamental part of the peace treaty. Most of us here are old enough to remember the bombings and murders.
I seem to recall that the implementation of a hard border with Eire would contravene part of the Good Friday Agreement and, as such, would be illegal.
I seem to recall that the implementation of a hard border with Eire would contravene the Withdrawal Act we passed into law recently and, as such, would be illegal.
Most of us here are old enough to remember the bombings and murders.
Yes, they made the sporadic islamic fundamentalist stuff look amateur (with exception of 9/11)
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> a statistically insignificant majority can ride roughshod over everyone else.</span>
But it's not even that. What we are ending up with isn't what a majority wanted. Because the question was stupidly phrased. That's why we are in this mess - that and May getting trigger happy with A50.
MSP – both May and Rudd have said it – rejecting mays deal risks no brexit.
They haven't said it is an option, they have said it is a risk, a risk they are painting as a worse option than a no deal brexit.
May is pinning her legacy on driving through a brexit deal, and be dammed with the consequences, it isn't principled, it isn't civic duty, like all of the higher ranks of the tory party it is hubris and a lust for power that drives her.
But until recently, no Brexit at all wasn't even being entertained as a possibility.
I'm clinging to the hope that it rises to the top and all the assertions that this is where it will all end, come to a happy fruition...
I'm surprised none of the rabid Brexiteers have spotted the obvious solution to the Irish border problem and suggested a military take over of the South. Kill several birds with one stone.
I seem to recall that the implementation of a hard border with Eire would contravene part of the Good Friday Agreement and, as such, would be illegal. I could be wrong about that, but the big thing there would be going back to the days to The Troubles. We don’t want that.
I belive it's this section of the Belfast agreement
RIGHTS, SAFEGUARDS AND EQUALITY OF
OPPORTUNITY
Human Rights
1. The parties affirm their commitment
to the mutual respect, the civil
rights and the religious liberties of
everyone in the community. Against
the background of the recent history
of communal conflict, the parties
affirm in particular:...
...
• the right to freely choose one’s place of residence;
• the right to equal opportunity in all social and economic activity, regardless of class, creed, disability, gender
That means people can freely move between north and south and go about thier business, because if they couldnt, both parties won't be equal. At least that's how I read it.