Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
It's not the selling that's issue its the drive for profit above everything.
it’s not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history
What was the purpose of slavery? What is the purpose of sweat shops?
You could argue that businesses that need the benefit of the EU are those that are interested in the cheapest labour and most neo-liberal conditions to suit their own profits.
You could argue it, but youd be talking bollocks
harmonisation of rules & regulations & frictionless trade is where biggest hit from brexit would come (according to DDs own imapct assesments)
Our research lab would be screwed with a no deal Brexit, we rely on next day delivery for countless products that require all kinds of (currently EU) certification from chemicals, gm organuisms, radioisotopes etc
Theres already a huge headache for clinical trials as UK have been shut out of new projects until we know what data protection rules we will be following.
Plenty more effected by the madness of Brexit than just 'Big Business'
But its also worth noting that Airbus in particular have factories all over the world & they rely on frictionless movement of goods (& people) between UK & EU to make sure that manufacturing here is profitable, they employ15,000 people here, with 100,000 in the supply chain & pay 1.5bn in tax.
Infact my FIL worked for them for years & spent a lot of time between UK & tolouse, as well as their factories in Malaysia etc, he said the day after the vote that he thought they would leave & teh way the government have bungled things & are still chasing ****ing unicorns ( both warring parts of the Tory party are pushing for plans that wont continue frictionless movement) , Im amazed they havent gone already.
it’s not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history
It was arguably nationalism that did that. Blue passports and taking back control anyone?
EU has been a generally civilising influence in terms of working conditions. Notwithstanding that UK conditions exceed the EU minimum in some areas. One specific example being the directive 1999/70/EC on short-term contracts
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0070:EN:HTML
Which I happen to be a fan of as it directly resulted in improvements to not only my own contract but many others in similar situations.
harmonisation of rules & regulations & frictionless trade is where biggest hit from brexit would come (according to DDs own imapct assesments)
I can't argue with your knowledge here can I? It's what you do.
Clearly some business will get by, some will fold and some may thrive.
I've been screwed many times in business, but I have to keep going irrespective of what the political outlook is.
I’ve been screwed many times in business, but I have to keep going irrespective of what the political outlook is.
Maybe some people not so keen to meekly accept being **** over for no good reason?
But its also worth noting that Airbus in particular have factories all over the world & they rely on frictionless movement of goods (& people) between UK & EU to make sure that manufacturing here is profitable, they employ15,000 people here, with 100,000 in the supply chain & pay 1.5bn in tax.
But how is it helpful they threaten to leave the UK?
The aerospace industry is pretty nasty pile-on of ripping up contracts and strong-arming of local suppliers. I've got a bit of first hand experience of this.
It's hard for me to empathise with them that is all.
Maybe some people not so keen to meekly accept being fuct over for no good reason?
But we're getting screwed over in plenty of other areas, and yet you don't hear the same hysterics. Tory austerity is needlessly dismantling the very fabric of our society. Going to be very difficult to reverse.
I would say a much greater impact that the second guessing of what will happen when/if we leave the E.U.
I'm all for people fighting for a better life. We're just not all on the same page currently as it's such mess of conflicting outcomes.
Of course people from other countries turn up and do the work because the work is paid relatively well. If I could go and work in Poland and get paid 5 times more than I get in the UK I would be there now…
In what way do you think construction work pays 5x more in the UK than Poland?? (or most professions)
Or do you think Tesco is significantly cheaper in Poland than the UK?
All of those things, it is simply not worth the risk of doing a short term job for no more money and the subsequent delay in claiming benefits when the work ends. You need to live in the benefit system and then come back and tell us about it.
I suppose you think I just randomly mentioned the short term risks ...?
The UK benefit's system is or has evolved for long term claimants...taking a temporary job is a huge risk to maintaining benefits and continuity but the question was if there were unemployed people who COULD do that job... and as I mentioned their reasons WHY they aren't...(this being one of them).
However ... non of that has got anything to do with the EU...
Housing is cheaper in Poland but not because of any other reason than the UK's OWN hurdles... in Poland you can buy a plot of land and build a house..
or again why did these 'furrin sounding' construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
Then if that’s the case that is what is confusing….
of course his brand of socialism is more important than what you think is the welfare of the people as he believes that the EU has not been good for the welfare of most people and the EU will restrict what he can do to bring in his form of socialism which will benefit most people in his view - which is the same as McDonald.
He keeps his head down and he, and John McD, make ambiguous statements that don't provide the commitment that the headlines suggest because they do not want to commit us to staying in the EU, dispite what that Stammer guy said. but they want to ride the hysteria that such headlines bring. Like that there will be a referendum, with the proviso that remain is not an option getting much less publicity.
To me the right answer is to take a Norway style agreement - we do not want to be part of every-close-political union and we do not want the Euro and there are other ways that EU migration can be controlled more, witness other countries.
Then there needs to be a lot more investment in the north and midlands to equalise out the propsperity of the country.
The best thing to have come out of this so far is the statement about EU immigrants not having more rights than immigrants from any other country, which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist.
But we’re getting screwed over in plenty of other areas, and yet you don’t hear the same hysterics. Tory austerity is needlessly dismantling the very fabric of our society. Going to be very difficult to reverse.
Plenty have people have been screaming about the insanity of austerity, Brexit just means more austerity ! government has already wasted £2bn on Brexit prep, Raab admitted no deal means an extra £3.7bn in prep costs
Much of the objection to Brexit is that it makes the country poorer & means more austerity
The best thing to have come out of this so far is the statement about EU immigrants not having more rights than immigrants from any other country, which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist.
It doesnt have to be a race to the bottom, you know !
Plenty have people have been screaming about the insanity of austerity, Brexit just means more austerity !
Where is the 1280 page austerity thread?
Much of the objection to Brexit is that it makes the country poorer & means more austerity
As much as I want to agree - we don't actually know that for sure do we?
EU migrants getting into the UK is part of the wider deal of being in the EU. Four freedoms. End of story .
And also it is a lot easier to get people from a few hundred miles away to work a few weeks on a farm or factory, rather than flying them across the globe. It is common sense.
In a rational world it would be helpful for people to understand the consequences of their action.
Housing is cheaper in Poland but not because of any other reason than the UK’s OWN hurdles… in Poland you can buy a plot of land and build a house..
or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
One part of the reason that many Poles came to the UK was that historically there's been closer connections between us than those between Poland and Germany.
I remember the massive outflux of Brits to go and work in architecture and construction in Germany after reunification in the period 90-93.
Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
Depends on the industry really doesnt it? A cursory look at the history of corporations indicates they have much the same flaws as states. Difference being is very few people are so ideologically blinkered about states.
or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
Quite a few did go to Germany. However several factors come into play.
Firstly historical ties between the UK and certain Eastern European countries.
Secondly language. English is more often a secondary language than others.
Thirdly at the time the Eastern European countries joined the EU it was the UK which was booming and so was most attractive. This was compounded by the fact that the UK government chose not to impose any restrictions, which it was entitled to do, unlike Germany. So had the large initial influx which in turn helped create communities for future immigrants to access.
As much as I want to agree – we don’t actually know that for sure do we?
already taken £bns out of economy & cost each household >£900
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/brexit-vote-cost-uk-mark-carney-bank-of-england
government has had to hire nearly 30k extra civil servants since the vote, bill is already >£1bn
of course his brand of socialism is more important than what you think is the welfare of the people as he believes that the EU has not been good for the welfare of most people and the EU will restrict what he can do to bring in his form of socialism which will benefit most people in his view – which is the same as McDonald.
Fair enough ... though I'm rather unsure of what he means by his brand of socialism and how that is either:
Not like Sweden or Denmark... which obviously can exist in the EU
Not like Cuba
What benefits most of the people ... depending who those people are ... is also something the EU hasn't provided... but by provided I mean forced down our throats... at least from my perspective what we have spectacularly failed to do is actually take advantage of being members.
Then there needs to be a lot more investment in the north and midlands to equalise out the propsperity of the country.
I'm not entirely sure its so simple. (and we should probably include the SW but)
COL: Of course housing is cheaper but ... food and such isn't... of course it used to be but that was before we had national supermarkets and online shopping. TBH you can see the deprivation more clearly in the North and Midlands but that's largely because the SE has a layer of makeup ...
but of course we (the UK) have left regional development very much up to EU finding...
Quite a few did go to Germany. However several factors come into play.
Secondly language. English is more often a secondary language than others.
So German and dialects are the 2nd language of many parts of Poland.(nothing to do with WWII).. obviously less in the younger generations but certainly more so when Poland joined the EU... however other than music and popular TV the reason for this is because it became the lingua franca (pun) of the EU. Almost all older people speak Russian ... it's only relatively recently that English became common.
Thirdly at the time the Eastern European countries joined the EU it was the UK which was booming and so was most attractive. This was compounded by the fact that the UK government chose not to impose any restrictions, which it was entitled to do, unlike Germany. So had the large initial influx which in turn helped create communities for future immigrants to access.
The LATTER is IMHO FAR more important. We (UK) simply waived our rights...and this goes beyond way creating communities because it created a pattern and indeed was the other reason for the language.
Talking of salaries... English teachers can get far better pay in the thousands of Polish private English schools than they can here. This simple waving of our rights set up what is now a HUGE business in Poland...
There are actually loads of Polish construction workers in Germany, they came here in similar numbers as they did to the UK. In Germany though there are laws about qualifications, and certain work can only be carried out by a master builder, so a qualified Polish builder has to show his qualifications are up to the same standard, or he can only work under the supervision of a qualified master builder.
Looks like Mays big speech in New York is to announce that ,post-Brexit, the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Wow..... who could have possibly seen that one coming?!
The aerospace industry is pretty nasty pile-on of ripping up contracts and strong-arming of local suppliers. I’ve got a bit of first hand experience of this.
It’s hard for me to empathise with them that is all.
You don't have to empathise with the CEOs and corporate decision makers. However you should empathise with the normal people who do the work.
Re effects of regulation: I'm a consultant with a pretty niche skillset even within the company. I get called out at short notice to clients. Currently, if it's an EU client, I can just go. But based on recent experience going to Switzerland, there was a wait of several weeks and that was the fast option with heavy restrictions on what I could do. Any decent sized project would have taken ages to sort out.
Now, for Switzerland everyone faces the same issue, so it's shit but whatever. However for us UK consultants we are more likely to lose out to other consultants within the EU because they can still jump on a plane and travel whenever they want.
Less work for us based in the UK means that genuine redundancy is more likely.
which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist
reciprocity
That is, countries that allow workers, services, goods, whatever, to travel both ways for the benefit of both sides.
For example; one of the reasons why it is currently harder to come here to work from Canada or Australia or Japan, than it is from Germany, is because the Germans make it easier for Brits to go and work there. Close down these special arrangements and it's likely to just add friction for everyone, especially for Brits, rather than necessarily freeing up movement from countries we currently treat too strictly.
Now, for Switzerland everyone faces the same issue, so it’s shit but whatever. However for us UK consultants we are more likely to lose out to other consultants within the EU because they can still jump on a plane and travel whenever they want.
Less work for us based in the UK means that genuine redundancy is more likely
Yep, tell me about it... although I don't think you really went into the level of detail so that anyone doesn't do this understand the levels of crap.... restrictions on what you can and can't do .. who reimburses you ...
It's not just the time... though of course that is a factor but an EU consultant is able to do work that we are not allowed to do or require a permit .... and I don't now about Switzerland but in many countries it's simply impossible in any realistic timeframe. (Months best case with sponsorship from the client) .. worse case is spending months and then getting it turned down... Obviously the client's will know the risk... so even if we are miraculously cheaper and better qualified we come with the risk of spending months and still not being able to do the work.
This of course is simply one example of how we will be disadvantaged... the same will apply to goods exports.
We might have a specialist product required but if that product is required quickly and requires certification then it's a risk... again the UK loses the contract.
although I don’t think you really went into the level of detail
No you're right, we have an agency for this stuff. But it still required a lengthy argument with the agency about what exactly I wanted to do and was allowed to do. None of the categories made sense and it was a massive ballache. And it cost us £1500.
Less red tape my arse.
No you’re right, we have an agency for this stuff. But it still required a lengthy argument with the agency about what exactly I wanted to do and was allowed to do. None of the categories made sense and it was a massive ballache. And it cost us £1500.
Yep... and that is a specialist agency! (We use one as well but we pre-fill the requirements)
Presently I can tick the I am an EU citizen box that not only saves the company a grand or more but saves me playing answer 20 questions about if directors of the sponsoring company have XYZ .. if the parent company of the sponsoring company are involved in any special sectors... etc. etc. and of course every bloody country is different. Will you be paid by an in country entity or not... how many days will you be in the country... or perhaps how many work days..(does staying over the weekend count or not). not to mention TAX....
I can quite honestly say there are several countries where the work required to go and do a day's consulting far exceeds the day actually working vs ticking the I am an EU citizen box!
Looks like Mays big speech in New York is to announce that ,post-Brexit, the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Stellar idea, let's make more money by... collecting less of it. FFS.
Wow….. who could have possibly seen that one coming?!
Quite. Just as new EU tax legislation is about to land. We said two years ago that the entire thing was likely to be a tax dodge.
Bit of a shame just as we are looking into moving our company to Estonia in order to stay within the EU. No point having a low tax rate if there's no money to be taxed.
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This is possible… it seems the Lib-Dems paid the price for pragmatism… and don’t get any or much credit for the excesses they managed to prevent.
They do get credit for that, they just also get the blame for all of the excesses they enabled, and rightly so. You don't get points for putting the nutters in charge then stopping them doing a few of the nutter things they want to do.
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They do get credit for that, they just also get the blame for all of the excesses they enabled, and rightly so. You don’t get points for putting the nutters in charge then stopping them doing a few of the nutter things they want to do.
And that makes then incapable of learning from their mistakes....
It's double standards plain and simple by a lot of people who will tick the red or blue box out of habbit because of that one time they tried yellow and it wasn't all they had hoped for, back to red or blue you know what kind of screwed you get when you tick there.
Anyway, we do have a tame brexiter in out office, young and of the mindset that we can't judge them on their plans, it's only right we let it happen and then we can decide if we like it. Though he also thinks tax is theft....
Tick Tock, who's going to have the balls to do something
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or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
As someone mentioned up the page, roughly as many polish construction workers chose Germany as the UK. The higher number of Polish immigrants to the UK (550000 vs 425000 vs 350000 to France and 100000-ish to Eire, the Netherlands and Italy) isn't down to construction workers but financial services
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Which, observant people will notice, means that per capita Eire received more than twice as many Polish immigrants as the UK did. So why are we so obsessed with it?
So why are we so obsessed with it?
Is it because people are ignorant and/or racist. Coming over here, taking our jobs using our benefits, using our hospitals. Whereas the intelligent among us know that they are net contributors who are doing jobs that need doing, paying tax, etc,. yet not using our schools as they did that in their country and not using our health system as they are not old and are here to work and get money.
It is pretty easy to explain the benefits of immigration to the country but nobody is trying that hard to do it.
Coz we dont like foreigners init...
If someone moves from one EU country to another, are they really an immigrant?
If someone moves from one EU country to another, are they really an immigrant?
If you speak clear English as a first language and have the right skin tone, you are just here
Got an accent - immigrant
sun tan and accent - well we all know about them...
Anyone seen the mass brawl at the school in Sheffield? That school is right next to my parents place.
I think that helps to confirm my argument and experience in the state system as a student, that they have a ****ing poor attitude towards getting an education, that area is full of brexit voting zombies.
I think that helps to confirm my argument that they have a **** poor attitude towards getting an education, that area is full of brexit voting zombies.
Right then.... anything else you want to infer from that?
**** me. And an excuse for binning this bit of a mess is 'emboldening the far right' and 'fears of violent protest'.
This is a country that lost its shit over a pasty tax. I think there might be some 'violent protest' when Greggs runs out of sausage rolls.
Yeah. And it'll be all the fault of [the EU / remoaners / immigrants] (pick one).
the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Confirming what we already thought. Now, about those potholes that need fixing.
On the earlier subject of the aerospace industry, where I've just spent the best part of 20 years - it is one of the UKs manufacturing sectors and biggest exporter outside of financial services and the South East. There is a huge disparity between the big primes and the SMEs many who chronically lack investment in capability and skills - many seem to think they should be given work at any price and whilst we'd spend days advising them on where to make investment and giving them effectively free consulting and access to Government money they'd just ignore you. Any notion that the UK can simply access untapped export markets is living in cuckoo land - I used to deal with many of the officials who wrote the industrial policy and strategy papers and it was often just speculative, unfounded nonsense because they'd never done a day's work outside of Whitehall. We have a huge skills gap in technology and engineering and restricting immigration will only create economic damage as our education system is only delivering a fraction of the people we need for high skilled and high earning jobs - minimum wage seasonal retail and fruit picking is all the prospects Brexit can offer.
the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Yep, because we’re so far down the road of lubing up and bending over to multinationals there is no way back. Brexit just hastens the demise until everything is put out to tender.
Wait until austerity +++ hits and the NHS, education, police etc have to swallow yet more impossibly unsustainable budget cuts. Mark my words the mates of Tory ministers who run cowboy outsourcing firms are flush to the chest in anticipation of the moment that whole swathes of the NHS and education are forced to raise the white flag. They will be in there like a shot. There’ll be brochures, there’ll be branding, but ultimately they’ll cut corners to make a profit in the short term, screw the whole thing further into the ground, then **** off to get fat in some exclusive hideaway somewhere. Yet again, Joe Public will be left to pick up whatever pieces remain and take another pay cut to make it ‘work’ as best it can. This is why the likes of Liam Fox don’t give a shit about a no deal Brexit, because they will do very nicely out of it.
We are on the edge here, the predators are circling and I really, really fear we are going to blunder over the cliff.