Now THAT'S an interesting stat... ^^^
I am not a clairvoyant, i simply look at things from other folks perspectives so –
Here’s my perspective, being Scottish and that we voted to remain as a nation within the EU the first time around.....
1 : Scotland increases its remain vote so the rest of the UK can do whatever the **** it wants,
2 : Scotland waves goodbye to its insular illinformed neighbour but extends a welcoming hand to anyone of any race or culture wishing to join us,
3 : sell underpants, prosper on profits *
* = reference to South Park money making scheme by underpant gnomes
The whole country is broken and dysfunctional. The working poor have been completely used and abused by the very people pushing for a hard brexit. 90% of their woes have been created by these people (Tories mainly) and yet they can not see it
Absolutely. One of the worst things Brexit has done is mask the terrible idealogical shove of austerity.
And still they come out on top.
2. Moderate brexiteers will vote leave as they have been fed anti EU shit by the daily mail JRM etc.
3. We now have some “new” Brexiteers who have been convinced by the Daily Mail JRM etc that the EU is nasty. 1 2 and 3 think Nissan, Jaguar etc are lying about jobs.
Have you met any of those people?
Analysis shows people becoming annoyed by brexit and seeing through the lies. Polls show this movement is happening.
Does anyone know a Remainer who now wants to leave?
I know 3 leavers who will now vote remain just to stop my shop going tits up.
Why do leavers not want a vote on anything?
They are scared.
The last time a politician offered a vote on the EU they couldn't have been happier.
Strategically, keeping all doors open and then setting the tory unity machine on itself would be a better strategy, you don’t know who you would face in a winter GE at this point. Best to know where the battle is before letting the plans slip.
Political parties used used to have long term policies and values. Waiting for your opponent to say something stupid then saying you will do the opposite when you have no intentions as it doesn’t meet your now secret value system is just a power grab that is doomed to failure.
once in power you will revert to you values which may not be what people want as they were not explicitly voting for them. Much like Brexit, if you leave it ambiguous people will be disappointed because you will not deliver what they wanted.
We have to accept that about half of this country is pissed off, thick, misled, poorly educated, misinformed and disenfranchised – why this is i dont understand compared to Thatchers times this current world is significantly better with shed loads more opportunity for education, business and employment.
It is better now than in the 70s, there's just mass psychological malaise at the fact that outgroups that they once looked down on are doing better than them here and all over the world. They now have to pay rent to Chinese landowners, who they once saw as "gooks". They realise that education is the answer, but there's always been this anti-intellectual "Just another brick in the wall's mentality in parts of this country, so education is viewed with a lot of cognitive dissonance/sour grapes.
I also think Leave is more likely to win than lose another referendum.
But I don't see any other way to try and stop this.
Neither party will be standing on a Remain or EEA ticket at a general election. Zero chance of that happening. Even if they did, the betrayal narrative used against them would be overwhelmingly strong.
We have to accept that about half of this country is pissed off, thick, misled, poorly educated, misinformed
I don't think all remainers fall into that camp.
I'm pretty certain someone has already dismissed those ones based on some population data
5. Not enough old folks have passed away to change the percentages significantly
6. Not enough young folk have turned 18 to change the percentage significantly
Couple of paragraphs in
Well this has gone off-piste hasn’t it. Tin-hat conspiracy theories aside, what amuses me is that there seems to be some confusion as to whether Corbyn is an idealistic hard brexit zealot, or a power hungry cynic who’ll do anything to win an election. Clearly his tactic of keeping everyone guessing is working a treat
Not my confusion ...
Brexit aside... my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
Putting Brexit back in... the question I am asking is will he roll the dice on a small chance of implementing his socialist utopia above what is pragmatically best for his membership and the country as a whole?
My thoughts based on his actions are that "the cause" is more important to him than the reasons for it.
I don’t think all remainers fall into that camp.
Indeed.
You were a remainer too though weren’t you?
Does anyone know a Remainer who now wants to leave?
Myself currently.
I think the people that have voted have made their bed. They should be shown what they have done.
If we about turn we play straight into a scenario that will never die.
Also I'm a bit frustrated at the constant threats from big businesses about leave. That does grate me.
Heart is still a remainer.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> I would still vote remain in a second ballot.</span>
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
May is at the UN today. Before she heads there she will give a speech to US business leaders stressing that Britain will be a low-tax economy, post Brexit, and talk about the opportunities Brexit will afford them
She won’t obviously be coming out and saying explicitly what ‘opportunities’ being free from EU regulation will afford American corporate interests, but I don’t think you need to be a genius to work it out.
And it’s highly unlikely that those interests will be the same as the interests of the poor suckers who were conned in to voting for this, who are about to get royally shafted!
Our journey to a deregulated, low skill, low wage sweatshop economy with its capital city as the Worlds biggest tax haven and money laundering centre are well underway.
Thats what she’ll be selling today
If we about turn we play straight into a scenario that will never die
The gammons need something to hate.
If we leave they will just go back to hating all the things we hated in the 70s.
My thoughts based on his actions are that “the cause” is more important to him than the reasons for it.
I would say you have selected an overly simplistic set of outcomes.
Really there are four if Labour managed to push for a second referendum.
Remain: Labour lose support in heartlands and is wiped out.
Remain: Labour doesnt get much out of it since most of those pledging support will go with whatever the next bribe is.
Leave: Labour gets blamed for the mess and is wiped out.
Leave: Tories are, correctly, blamed for the mess and Labour does ok.
Its not whether it is worth risking destroying Labour due to the backlash which would allow the tories to impose an even more extreme free market utopia on everyone. Bearing in mind the "moderate" zealots in Labour are still desperate to try and destroy the idea that labour should be mildly left wing and so will also be waiting to pounce.
I think the people that have voted have made their bed. They should be shown what they have done.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
No reason to assume labour will be wiped out in heartlands if we remain. Labour should be able to explain easily why the brexishambles has been entirely the Tories fault.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
Combined with a bit of I'm alright jack
I’m interested to see what Sturgeon will do after the relative shift following Starmer’s speech yesterday. I wonder what her next move is.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
Nope. This won't affect everyone in the same way.
And I'm not alright jack.
And we all don't know the absolute outcome here.
I happen to think austerity is the bigger issue.
The gammons need something to hate.
If we leave they will just go back to hating all the things we hated in the 70s.
First part is true.
However I would imagine gammons liked a lot of the 70's. For a start you could call a black person a darky on telly.
Labour should be able to explain easily why the brexishambles has been entirely the Tories fault.
Yeah since I am sure the media will accurately report those details. After all they have done such a good job on the EU in past and Labour recently havent they?
I am also sure that the labour moderates would stand behind Corbyn and not try and use it as another excuse to launch an attack.
If labour go pro eu I will vote for them. I am a member of the lib Dems.
Mrs Zip will vote for them.
I'm sure some remain tories will vote for them.
They don't need to worry about losing votes.
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
Then if that's the case that is what is confusing....
He seems more concerned about being elected than Brexit... and much as another cycle under the Tory's might not be attractive that is a limited and fixable thing compared the irrepairable effect Brexit will have on his membership.
DD; playing the long game and demanding more time still, she cannot lose here as a no-deal Brexit would quite possibly be tipping point for the Union. Bearing in mind the no vote in the 2014 ref was warning us we would be eating our children by the end of our first winter, the similar situation that a no-deal exit will bring is playing right into her hands. I was chatting to a workmate on Monday who brought up the thought that if the first ref had never happened a no deal Brexit would pretty much guarantee independence as Westminster would be too busy tearing itself to pieces and the financial arguments would be much shakier to effectively convince us to vote no.
Sigh, that was a good thread,the indy one...if only there was somebody to come on and make up silly names for Scottish politicians and constantly quote that " the truth is out there." to make me feel all nostalgic.
They don’t need to worry about losing votes.
How long will this pledge remain in effect for?
He seems more concerned about being elected than Brexit… and much as another cycle under the Tory’s might not be attractive
Its more than another cycle though isnt it? Its the moderate extremists waiting in the wings to try and drag the party rightwards again which, incidentally, would then stand a good chance of setting up another brexit campaign when they continue with the old game of ignore the heartlands to chase the swing voters.
Getting away from the politics and back to the practicalities/realities: I've just been doing some design work for a company in the North West with an absolutely huge warehousing/logistics facility.
If you walk around the site and listen to the languages being spoken, it becomes glaringly obvious that a company like this simply couldn't function as it does at present without large-scale immigration
Binners - are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Company I have just left couldn’t function with out Eastern Europeans. 80% of workforce comes from out of country.
How long will this pledge remain in effect for?
Can't answer for others but for me it would two parts....
1) Vote Labour for leave
2) Judge them based on performance after (by which I mean continued pragmatism)
Tricky thing Facebook polls. Even when you only post it to your own followers there is a danger that the general public may get involved and spoil your point:
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Caveat: before someone else says it: yes obviously this is likely to be more about upsetting Nigel/UKIPpers than a true reflection of public sentiment.
Still funny though.
Binners – are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Probably. Whether you'd want to employ them, or could actually, with the best will in the world, define them as employable is another matter entirely
Binners – are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Well surely we can grab some unemployed from around the UK and threaten to cut their benefits unless they take these jobs in the NW.... but then why hasn't that already happened before all this Brexit?
The wider question though is why are these diverse migrants taking the jobs?
The local unemployed will say their reasons* ... but why are these jobs more attractive in the NW than say the Rhone Valley to these diverse 'migrants' than the local unemployed population who don't need to move countries?
*These might be quite diverse, including it's only temporary, it's not worth disrupting benefits ... it doesn't pay enough... but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
Can’t answer for others but for me it would two parts….
Which is sensible but also means its completely useless for Labour. So a temporary vote at the risk of losing permanently other votes.
but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
It is rather easier to do a really physically demanding job for pretty low pay if you know its going to be short(ish) term. Put up with it for 2-3 years doing a ton of overtime and not doing much beside work and sleep. Means outgoings are fairly low and so you end up with a decent amount of cash. Although by decent I mean a handy sum if you are going to go back somewhere with sensible house prices and cost of living.
It is rather easier to do a really physically demanding job for pretty low pay if you know its going to be short(ish) term. Put up with it for 2-3 years doing a ton of overtime and not doing much beside work and sleep. Means outgoings are fairly low and so you end up with a decent amount of cash. Although by decent I mean a handy sum if you are going to go back somewhere with sensible house prices and cost of living.
I agree but then that's why the present people are doing it.
The Northwest though is hardly somewhere without sensible house prices... but for the sake of illustration lets say this construction is new houses.... then the price of those houses to build will be linked to the labour cost...
Either way though you get to the point where building an affordable new house means employing people at a rate that may mean they can't afford the house.
It's simpler with say use Taxi drivers... but implicitly the taxi driver needs to make enough money to live and pay tax and a share to some controller. On the basis of this a taxi driver shouldn't be able to afford to make taking a taxi alone a regular thing.
Which is sensible but also means its completely useless for Labour. So a temporary vote at the risk of losing permanently other votes.
This is possible... it seems the Lib-Dems paid the price for pragmatism... and don't get any or much credit for the excesses they managed to prevent.
However ... I'm not really sure how that works for the Labour members/voters.... Where are they going to go that has any socialism at all? It's also about communication ... (surely) ... in communicating this the best realistic outcome (that doesn't involve unicorns of any colour)...
Also I’m a bit frustrated at the constant threats from big businesses about leave. That does grate me.
Hang on. Leaving is likely to **** up businesses. So the people who have to try and run them are telling you why they are having problems and what they need the government to do. And you are complaining about this because it's annoying?
FFS listen you yourself. You can't ask people to keep silent on serious issues just to make you feel better.
Yeah but big business bro, they're all evil psychopathic overlords and the world would totally be better off being run on ideological grounds not corporate greed brah.
I work for a big business. It makes stuff, useful stuff.
Something something.....Poe's law :p
it's not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history. Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
These might be quite diverse, including it’s only temporary, it’s not worth disrupting benefits … it doesn’t pay enough… but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
All of those things, it is simply not worth the risk of doing a short term job for no more money and the subsequent delay in claiming benefits when the work ends. You need to live in the benefit system and then come back and tell us about it.
Of course people from other countries turn up and do the work because the work is paid relatively well. If I could go and work in Poland and get paid 5 times more than I get in the UK I would be there now...
Our journey to a deregulated, low skill, low wage sweatshop economy with its capital city as the Worlds biggest tax haven and money laundering centre are well underway.
Precisely. Why else would the Tories be pushing it?
Hang on. Leaving is likely to **** up businesses. So the people who have to try and run them are telling you why they are having problems and what they need the government to do. And you are complaining about this because it’s annoying?
FFS listen you yourself. You can’t ask people to keep silent on serious issues just to make you feel better.
Okay take a chill. Sounds hysterical.
Every time there is political upheaval some business or other is going to complain about something aren't they? (I was specifically talking about the 'threats' they make to the government - such as Airbus)
You could argue that businesses that need the benefit of the EU are those that are interested in the cheapest labour and most neo-liberal conditions to suit their own profits.
And I'm sorry again which businesses should I listen to?
And for the record I run a business. A small one, and have been troubled by austerity way more than the EU so put your vitriol somewhere else.
Your final statement is misplaced. I'm not asking anyone to keep silent.