Most people are too thick and pigheaded to take any responsibility for the predictable consequences of their actions. The first cry will be "If only they'd done brexit properly it would have been fine", and then they'll move on to blaming the next scapegoat, be it EU citizens still living in the UK, muslims, or cyclists.
What future if your children cannot even have a place to be trained and to apply their knowledge when all those highly skills sectors have gone to EU.
Hang on… key manufacturing roles need to be inside the SM&CU, so let's be outside that, so that more key manufacturing roles get relocated to stay inside the SM&CU, and then we'll magically create new key manufacturing roles that don't need to be inside the SM&CU…?
Those that want it "to hurt"… you want to **** up the near future for my kids, just to make a political point? Nasty. Selfish. How about we look to work with the minority of people changing their mind, and stop or reduce this damage.
edit : Am I right in thinking that all those that have expressed the "it has to hurt" view in this thread are either retired, or close to retiring? If so, you're no better than all the retirees that voted for Brexit because "they don't mind if it hurts", in my opinion.
Take for example, the UK car industry where UK is only manufacturing low end stuff while those requiring high technological skills are maintained by the EU side. UK get the left over when it comes to having a place to hone their skills.
Your children future? What future if your children cannot even have a place to be trained and to apply their knowledge when all those highly skills sectors have gone to EU. Do you think your children can simply apply to get the job within the limited large organisation that control all the technology?
you haven't got the first ****ing clue about manufacturing or industry in general.
You are better off having own industry that might be 2nd to others but at least your children will have a place to be trained or greater chances to hone their skills at home.
what recent history example can we look at? how about lada for instance?
I think it is a bit naive to expect Leavers to say “ah ok I was completely wrong about that” when it all goes tits up. Being in denial of the facts is one of the main reasons they voted Leave in the first place.
Kelvin, not me. I want my two kids to engage economically in a vibrant European economy. One wants to be a pilot (under what regulations?), the other a scientist. But the country has decided on a course of action. The consequences of that action appear reasonably obvious to economically literate citizens. But the sad fact is that politics and politicians have let the country down.
I’m embarrassed by Brexit, as more than half of the people in my group are from mainland EU, highly skilled (PhD level) and wandering about their futures.
I can see where those that want it to “hurt” are coming from. Brexiteers are like your toddler who has smashed his toy in an exotic spresm of frustration with its drawbacks. And in smashing it, he may very well have hurt himself - and now he’s looking up at you to fix it - yes, you hope he’s learned a lesson, but because you’ll get more from love than hate, you’ll put a plaster on his wound and take the toy away and quietly fix it.
As for wishing economic hurt (as I did yesterday hearing about the Nissan employee that voted to leave), that will hurt us all as any economic damage will be paid for with more austerity, and no pain will be felt by the wealthy, be they Leavers or Liberal Elite remainers.
I think it is a bit naive to expect Leavers to say “ah ok I was completely wrong about that” when it all goes tits up. Being in denial of the facts is one of the main reasons they voted Leave in the first place.
The other main reason being they were given something to blame other than themselves.
Quite honestly, it's like the flat earthers ....it's something they WANT to believe ... denial of the facts is half of it but when all else fails blame "The Conspiracy".
I'm in a bar where a Belgian has just ordered his lunch from a Spaniard in English.Really we should should be running the EU like it's our own personal money pot.
The opportunity of a lifetime missed.
The uk. The Pete Best of Europe.
I’m embarrassed by Brexit, as more than half of the people in my group are from mainland EU, highly skilled (PhD level) and wandering about their futures
There are are lots of jobs in the world. The UK does not pay enough for scientists and engineers to have then jump through the same hoops that the US or Australia make them. Once we lose the welcoming attitudes people will not come...
mind you if the salaries do go up to match the US I would come back. Like for like tile for me at the moment would require 80-90% increase in UK salary... still this was one of the Brexit hopes to raise the salaries of the workers
I think it is a bit naive to expect Leavers to say “ah ok I was completely wrong about that” when it all goes tits up.
To be fair, I think a fair few will. Not the racist buffoons, but the people who just didn't know what it was for and wanted a better NHS.
Anyway, re the immigration proposal - they want to let foreigners compete with our clever people for high skill jobs, but keep all the low skill ones for Brits. Hmm....
Chewkw now appears to be making an argument for remaining in the EU.
He’s been dong that a bit recently.
Odd.
Kelvin, not me. I want my two kids to engage economically in a vibrant European economy. One wants to be a pilot (under what regulations?), the other a scientist. But the country has decided on a course of action.
I'm sure they'll be happy picking fruit.
To be fair, I think a fair few will. Not the racist buffoons, but the people who just didn’t know what it was for and wanted a better NHS.
On the whole don't you think those that are going to would have done so already?
It's a question btw.... it just seems to me that on the whole most would either have realised by now and either looked for more reasons to justify their decision or changed their view?
I notice amongst FB the SAME thing being used completely differently...
EU/Junkers whomever say "no we won't accept X,Y,Z" and remainers are "told you so"... and brexiters use the exact same event/statement as "See this is why we need to leave"....
Personally I just find the "told you so" is just unproductive even though that's what I'm thinking. It's not going to change anyone's view... and just ends up with "this is exactly why we need to leave"....
Those that want it “to hurt”
I don't want it to hurt. If I had my choice we'd never have held the referendum and stayed in. Even now I'd be very happy for it to be cancelled, no matter if that results in civil unrest or whatever else happens, it'd be a price worth paying. My point was that if this issue is ever to be settled, it has to hurt so that the people who voted for it change their minds. Is that possible? I have no idea. Like others I strongly suspect they'd find some other scapegoat rather than take responsibility themselves.
I will however admit that I will have little sympathy for those like the lady in Sunderland and her husband if they lose their jobs and end up poorer. I'll have even less sympathy for the people like my work colleagues who voted out even though they are intelligent professionals (there are lots of them). I have most sympathy for the young (obviously), but even then they have to realise that if they want something, they need to fight for it, rather than moaning on facebook about how unfair it is that old people are so rich. In the end everyone will get what they deserve, which at the moment in this country is very, very little.
I hope the people of Sunderland don't use freedom of movement to come dahn sarf and steal our jobs.
The uk. The Pete Best of Europe
Aye, we can put those breakfasts away.
Chewkw now appears to be making an argument for remaining in the EU.
He’s been dong that a bit recently.
Odd.
No, Never to remain in EU bureaucratic system.
I am using The Guardian etc because most reminders deem that as acceptable information ...
😀
Yeah I roughly agree with dazh though I am probably more optimistic about it being cancelled/indefinitely postponed which seems by far the most likely option to me.
I have absolutely no sympathy for ****s who voted leave and suffer the consequences. But a lot of people voted remain (or weren't allowed to vote) and they don't deserve punishment.
Never to remain in EU bureaucratic system.
Got any specific instances of EU bureaucracy and their impact that you want to be rid of?
Got any specific instances of EU bureaucracy and their impact that you want to be rid of?
The whole institution is a waste of space as individual nation states have already been doing what needs to be done. Yes, standards might be different but that is for the nation states (own peculiarities) to deal with or to coordinate amongst themselves.
Chewkw - far more efficient to get rid of nation bureaucrats and do it once in a centralised function.
You continue to make a case for remaining.
But a lot of people voted remain (or weren’t allowed to vote) and they don’t deserve punishment.
True, but even then they are not blameless. Two years after the referendum a significant number of the 48% voted for parties that support brexit. And just like the young, they sit at their computers in their social media bubble whining to their mates about how they've been screwed by stupid people. Myself included. Like I said, we get what we deserve.
What about families, companies, communities that straddle national borders?
I have absolutely no sympathy for **** who voted leave and suffer the consequences. But a lot of people voted remain (or weren’t allowed to vote) and they don’t deserve punishment.
That is not how life works. We all get to suffer rules or restrictions to protect the most vulnerable or inept of us...
when collectively we allow ourselves to be driven by hate or we neglect large groups to an extent that they feel so disengaged we all have to suffer to learn the lesson.
The fact that many of the people driving the process have done it for economic advancement and we will let them is perhaps even worse.
how many people on here understand how national and local government works? Who their representatives at each level are? What the responsibilities of the government and the individual are? How to voice displeasure at each level?
i understand some basics but am pretty ignorant. Non of this was taught at school...
I'll take that as a no then. Why do you think that having 20+ different standards in ANY subject area would be better than having one common standard?
...but that is for the nation states (own peculiarities) to deal with <u>or to coordinate amongst themselves</u>.
Good idea! We could cooperate with other counties to work on shared standards, simplifying trade and sharing the costs of administration between us. Overall bureaucracy would be decreased. You could also give it a special name... Something with 'Union' in it, perhaps...
In the end everyone will get what they deserve
100% untrue.
Take for example, the UK car industry where UK is only manufacturing low end stuff while those requiring high technological skills are maintained by the EU side.
Chewkw now appears to be making an argument for remaining in the EU.
He’s been dong that a bit recently.
King of fruits.
Oh it may be old but...
Chewkw – far more efficient to get rid of nation bureaucrats and do it once in a centralised function.
You continue to make a case for remaining.
Centralised ... 😀
Sounds like someone is in contradiction with own views. 😀
Marx Weber might agree with you to some extend but as modern society increasingly demand individual freedom etc the heading for a centralised function is exactly the polar opposite for a modern society. i.e. on the one hand there is a strong demand for freedom etc yet on the other hand you want to take it away.
We all know that bureaucracy will turn into pear shape once it grows into a monster and even Weber acknowledged that.
The question is whether you understand the meaning of bureaucracy and their implications or simply because there is another agenda of systematically chipping away individual freedom.
King of fruits.
If I drive one of those "Batmobile" everyday then I am King of the road and you can also refer to me as King of fruits. 😀
What Jeremy Clarkson does not want to say in that clip is that some of the brands are assembled here. Yes, the smaller outfits might have built the entire car here but not all parts are manufactured here. Also you would have to be a King of fruits to use them as your daily commute. 😀
The EU gives me "individual freedoms" way beyond those my nation state can/will provide me unilaterally. It also helps protect me from an overreaching nation state, whether my own or one of 30+ others, with its support for supranational rights and courts.
bureaucracy
I think it's clear to most people now, that we will be duplicating and increasing bureaucracy by leaving the EU.
not all parts are manufactured here
Why should they be? Build a car to sell in many countries… make use of suppliers in many countries … seems sound to me.
That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder? The Mini/Oxford billboard was the first thing to make me start pondering…
Also you would have to be a King of fruits to use them as your daily commute.
Minis, Honda Civics and Fords?
Embarrassing for chewy that brexit is creating more of his dreaded bureaucracy than we have now.
Bit hhes got to cling to something I suppose
Token broken English posts by chewkw to maintain the facade
That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder?
The EU gives me “individual freedoms” way beyond those my nation state can/will provide me unilaterally. It also helps protect me from an overreaching nation state, whether my own or one of 30+ others, with its support for supranational rights and courts.
No, the EU bureaucratic system has not given people anything extra beyond that of a nation state as democracy has already prevailed in Western society.
Just because some people do not agree with the individual nation, recent case of the threat to sanction Hungary, that does not mean the entire nation is wrong after all individual nation has elected their leader democratically. When the EU bureaucratic system starts to object or interfere with the individual nation, it is essentially over ruling democracy by imposing their own views. Who are they to say other culture, society or identity are wrong?
The irony is that the champion of democracy (the West) has actually created a system, EU bureaucratic system, just to curtail themselves. 😀
That is why we, in the far east, tell the West (ideology) to stay out and keep out. 😀
I think it’s clear to most people now, that we will be duplicating and increasing bureaucracy by leaving the EU.
Nation states have always existed in their own form. The duplicity comes from EU bureaucratic system Not from the nation states.
Minis, Honda Civics and Fords?
No, the "batmobile" you posted or some of the sport cars that are impractical other than for the few with £££ to spend.
Why should they be? Build a car to sell in many countries… make use of suppliers in many countries … seems sound to me.
Build? You mean assemble? If you want to work on assembly line then what is the point of the education increasingly emphasise on getting people to improve on their technology skills/knowledge etc? What is the point when only some get to practice or to put into good use of what they have learned?
That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder? The Mini/Oxford billboard was the first thing to make me start pondering…
Top Gear is for entertainment and for those who love cars. It is just an entertainment.
Ah you're just ignoring the rear then.
Ah you’re just ignoring the rear then.
Nope, like in my previous thread (the one with FT link) most of the cars in your example, youtbue clip, are mostly assembled here. They are not exactly "made" here. Brand perhaps started here but then it all gone downhill after the brand ...
<div class="bbp-reply-author">dazh
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What would you have them do? Oppose it and kill any chances of being elected, fully support it and kill any chances of being elected, or try to sit on the fence until events swing the scales to one side or the other? I reckon the labour party are playing it just right, and evidence of the last election would seem to support that.
Said it before but I think Labour have decided- rightly- that they need to wait for Brexit to fail- be obviously a total disaster- before they can oppose it. Until then, they'll be portrayed as the people who destroyed it. The trouble is, May's government is so incompetent that they've so far failed to even deliver failure.
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As long as the fantasy brexit of the referendum still exists, it's dangerous to oppose. Once it actually evaporates things change,and change fast. But only brexit progress and decision making will do that. Right now people have never seen a brexit so they can still believe that it breathes fire and shits gold, but as soon as we actually capture a brexit and put it in a cage we'll be able to see it's basically a blobfish.
Which British brand has gone downhill and is making worse cars than before?
Said it before but I think Labour have decided- rightly- that they need to wait for Brexit to fail- be obviously a total disaster- before they can oppose it. Until then, they’ll be portrayed as the people who destroyed it. The trouble is, May’s government is so incompetent that they’ve so far failed to even deliver failure.
Do you mean the focus is getting the Party to win over the importance of the Nation? 😀
Hang on... THM is on a ban and chewkw is suddenly posting several times a day?