As the John Harris article Daz linked points out, the de facto opposition to Brexit isn’t coming from a naval-gazing labour party
The problem is is that those of us on the left who hate brexit will still mostly vote labour because we hate the tories even more. Your average working class brexiteer will happily switch his (and yes they are mostly men I bet) allegiance to the tories or UKIP in a heartbeat.
So how much more do we need to devalue to be competitive?
And the fantastic news about Brexit just keeps coming...
The problem is is that those of us on the left who hate brexit will still mostly vote labour because we hate the tories even more.
Meh, I pissed my vote into the wind at the locals & voted lib Dems,
No idea what I'd do in a GE right now.
IAny vote for a leave party is taken as a vote for the hardest brexit possible.
80% of people voted for a brexit party.
DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM.
IAny vote for a leave party is taken as a vote for the hardest brexit possible.
80% of people voted for a brexit party.
DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM.
Simply untrue. Labour are not "a brexit party, voting for the hardest brexit possible". They are the opposition, with a large core of voters in Leave-voting areas. Coming out and saying "Brexit is ridiculous" 18 months ago would have led to cries of BETRAYAL from all over the press. IMO Labour are playing things tactically and trying to hold the Tories to account for a series of unmeetable Brexit promises, because that's the only real option they have atm.
Voting for a "remain" party is no guarantee of stopping Brexit. Witness the Lib Dems - they have no power whatsoever, they choose to be absent for critical votes on Brexit, and will inevitably roll over for the Tories at the first sniff of power.
Frankly voting for anyone is a complete waste of time for a large majority of voters under the current system. However, joining political parties does give everyone a meaningful vote...the Clegg strategy.
Simply untrue
You would be well served to read the Governments response to Brexit petitions. A labour vote is taken as a pro brexit vote. As long as Labour keeps pushing brexit it is a brexit party.
talk up a Brexit crash-out and send sterling diving in value.
...
Could be a deliberate ploy to make some of his mates/donors a shed load of money trading currency.
I reminder that we'd already have crashed out of the EU by now, if the government had listened to Corbyn, and triggered A50 straight after the result. And when Labour MPs suggested that a plan for our post-EU relationship with our neighbours should be formed before A50 was triggered… or suggested that there should be a referendum once we know what the plan is… they were pushed onto the back benches. Want to get on in the Labour parliamentary party? Then you have to back a blind headlong unmandated rush into the more isolated future Corbyn wants…
Now, having said that… I'd still vote Labour currently… their position on Brexit is woeful, but at least they have a starting position on customs that makes some sense… and could be a starting point for discussions with the EU… the government still has nothing other than magical thinking, turning a blind eye on rule based systems, reliance on tech not yet in place anywhere in the world, benefits without obligations, cake and eat it, nonsense.
I'd like to vote for a party with polices that I actually agree with as regards international matters, rather than the party with the second most daft policies, but you have to play the hand being dealt in the constituency you have a vote in. That's the voting system we're stuck with.
48% of the electorate now has no representation whatsoever over the most important issue in this countries post-war history. We're totally disenfranchised
The people thinking labour would be any better than this lot are just delusional. Not with Corbyn in place, and he's going nowhere! Corbyn wants Brexit just as much as IDS or Rees-Mogg, albeit for very different reasons. It's worth bearing in mind that he'd have triggered article 50 the day after the referendum. Imagine where we'd be now if we'd done that?
Once in power, he'd immediately jettison any (deliberate but woefully unconvincing) ambiguity about his position on Brexit and enthusiastically embrace it. This would trigger another war with his almost exclusively anti-Brexit backbench MP's that would make the present Tory party look like a picture of unity.
So Theresa May is an absolute disaster, but what would you rather have? A remainer who's trying to reign in the Bexiteer nutters in the party, or the Brexiteer nutters in control of the government with all their pro-EU MPs in open revolt
neither is going to end well for the country, is it? But when you look at the available options, May staying in place is probably the least worst option. And that statement truly tells you how totally ****ed we really are!
[i]But when you look at the available options, May staying in place is probably the least worst option. And that statement truly tells you how totally ****ed we really are![/i]
This is so similar to how my friends in the USA looked at the last US presidential election.
They felt the choice was dismal.
We’re totally disenfranchised
Completely agree!
I'd never vote Tory anyway, but especially now after the Brexit fiasco. Labour's position on Brexit puts me off them too, as does Corbs himself. And I lost confidence in the LibDems after they finally got a taste of power and promptly rolled over for a belly rub.
Who do I vote for in the next GE? The Greens FFS?
You would be well served to read the Governments response to Brexit petitions.
Which are always well known for their truthfulness. As far as I am aware the GE wasnt a single issue election (thankfully since under the apparent rules of democracy that would mean all future GE are cancelled) and so the choice of someone voting for Labour may or may not have anything to do with their Brexit position.
It certainly doesnt support the voting for the hardest Brexit position.
Sure the tories might lie about it but listening to tory lies is how we got into this mess.
To be fair to Corbyn, he has served a useful purpose. The prospect of him in number ten is the only thing that has prevented the hardline Brexit headbangers in the Tory party mounting a leadership bid against May. They just daren't risk it!
So without Jezza, we'd probably have Rees Mogg or Boris as PM. A prospect so unfeasibly awful that it just doesn't bear thinking about.
I admit that this is hopelessly groping for a silver lining in the present political climate. But whichever way you slice it, May clinging on by her fingertips is the least worst option. Because with either Corbyn or a Tory Brexiteer at the helm at the moment, difficult to imagine though this is, things would no doubt be even worse!
This is so similar to how my friends in the USA looked at the last US presidential election.
But they get an opportunity to sort it out after four years. At least they weren't stupid enough to make their tantrum lasting.
Corbyn will follow the party eventually. He's much more of a pragmatist than he is a ideological nutter on brexit. He's an old school internationalist rather than and isolationist. If the EU offers an olive branch on state aid for and/or nationalisation of struggling industries, he'd be an enthusiastic remainer. That being said though, it doesn't excuse his lack of leadership on the issue. He should be out there telling the idiots that their fear of immigration is unfounded, that they've been sold a lie by the brexiteers, and that ultimately their decision to leave is wrong not because they are idiots (even if they are), but because they've been misled, misinformed and manipulated. I'm not hearing much of that at the moment.
He should be out there telling the idiots that their fear of immigration is unfounded,
Agree, all decent politicians should be doing that. I have a feeling the racist idiots won't really listen much though,
Corbyn also has a badly split party to deal with. He has closet tories like Hoey who are vehement anti europeans. He has dimwits like Burnham who are so scared of original thought and so scared of leaver constituents voting them out ( I know he is now Mayor) that they will go along with racist numpties and even play the race card despite not believing it and he has vehement pro europeans all to satisfy
given the amount of hatred for him within his party he has to take a cautious position on Europe to avoid those splits breaking wide open.
Personally I think Hoey, Feild, Stringer and the other idiot who voted for the tories should be kicked out of the party.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">kelvin
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I reminder that we’d already have crashed out of the EU by now, if the government had listened to Corbyn, and triggered A50 straight after the result.
Well, more likely we'd have reached the end of the exit period and got nowhere and deferred it
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Looks like News Thump did a follow up to that Al Murry twitter thread
What do stw folk think of what this chap has to say about article 50. Paragraph 3
”. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.”
Have i got News for You:
Transfer deadline day heats up as the Blues look to offload ineffective right-winger:
That last bullet point in the advert above seems to have been long forgotten.
What do stw folk think of what this chap has to say about article 50.
It's just a reminder that when Brexit cheerleaders talk about "reverting to" or "falling back on" WTO rules, they are either bullshiting or uninformed.
What do stw folk think of what this chap has to say about article 50.
There are no friends in international politics. Everyone is out for the best deal for themselves and we are now a target.
NO country will want tariffs on its imports to the UK unless we offer something in return. Now we don’t have so much access to the EU and there is no special relationship we better think of something to offer. Mind you after showing such a strong hand in our current negotiations the horse may have already bolted and been turned into lasagna and glue...
There are no friends in international politics. Everyone is out for the best deal for themselves and we are now a target.
Which of course demonstrates the advantage of being part of a larger trading bloc.
Liam Fox has had four trade deal negotiations.
None of the other parties were interested.
There are seven months to go.
cornholio
There are no friends in international politics. Everyone is out for the best deal for themselves and we are now a target...
Therein lies our problem.
It seems to me many British people have an inflated idea of the importance and strength of the UK. That may have been justified when we had an empire and the world's most powerful navy, but now we are more like a hollowed out shell. A king with no clothes.
The USA is not our friend and will happily screw us over, much of the old empire has unpleasant memories and will be happy to get a kick in or exploit us in return.
I don't think the EU has ever been our friend either, but it has been a working associate. I suspect now we are about to be put firmly in our place.
The politicians have made a right bollocks of Brexit. History will mark this episode as the dying thrashing of an empire.
I still think it will come right in the end because when reality sets in we'll see a new set of pragmatic politicians who will work within the new frameworks instead of delusions of former glory.
In the meantime expect chaos and watch the UK shed its problem peripheries like NI and Scotland.
At the end of the day, the whole Brexit process will be seen as an English Independence revolt.
Yep, what he said above for ordinary people.
For people in power, Brexit is a way to increase their wealth and power.
It’s just a reminder that when Brexit cheerleaders talk about “reverting to” or “falling back on” WTO rules, they are either bullshiting or uninformed.
I've genuinely found it quite shocking the depth of ignorance about amongst Brexit supporting Tory MP's as to how the globalised economy actually works. They still appear, even at this late stage, not to possess even the most basic knowledge of how businesses function with regard to supply chains, potential trade tariffs, or customs checks at borders, for example.
And whats even more worrying is that it seems to be a willful ignorance. They still seem to actually believe Goves 'we've had enough of experts' and ignore all of the mountains of evidence in front of them about the economic reality of the situation, in favour of mindless soundbites.
We are being marched off a cliff by ideological zealots who are in a total state of denial about how the world works in the 21st century
TBF the smarter ones like Gove , Johnson even mogg, redwood (well, smart enough to move their money out of the UK) etc are well aware that they must lie furiously to cross the finish line & leave.
If you want to see genuine pigheaded ignorance watch Bone or Dories talk about brexit
It was Peter Bone I was thinking of specifically kimbers. Talk about pig ignorant! I thought the Tory's were meant to be 'The Party of Business'. Every piece of ideological drivel he spouts just expose his dearth of knowledge as to how the world actually works.
And Dories? She's just a bullshit generating machine!
Its terrifying to think that these people are the tail that is presently wagging the government dog
Wonder how the tory party demographics compare to this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45098550
I would joke about just stalling Brexit for a couple of years and the problem will be deceased (hopefully like the tory party in its present form) however lots of the younger people polled apparently wouldn't be certain to vote in a second referendum!
Having said that all Corbyn would have to do is use his proven oratory skills to mobilise the youth vote just like he did during the last one... Oh wait my mistake...
It was Peter Bone I was thinking of specifically kimbers. Talk about pig ignorant! I thought the Tory’s were meant to be ‘The Party of Business’. Every piece of ideological drivel he spouts just expose his dearth of knowledge as to how the world actually works.And Dories? She’s just a bullshit generating machine!
Its terrifying to think that these people are the tail that is presently wagging the government dog
I have absolutely no doubt they will still be MP's after the next GE as well. Give a pig a coloured rossette and the "Great British Public" would still vote for it.
The sheer lack of quality when it comes to MP's from all sides of the house has led us to this point.
Its our fault, and I keep coming back to the point that you may "not do politics", but politics does you.
True or fake news?
Apparently, we won't be able to take delivery of our new blue passports from the manufacturers in France because we've no trade deal.....
And whats even more worrying is that it seems to be a willful ignorance.
In a past life I was a metallurgist so the comment in the LBC video talking about 3000 odd grades in consideration was initially a surprise but then made complete sense... with the UK having basically collapsed it’s metal industry after WW2 by not doing the consolidation and taking the other hard choices.
Sadly everything from now on will be a hard choice. Bring on the you MUST move for work and the increased power of net contributiors to the treasury. I wonder if Corbyn has a five year plan ready... Not sure BoJo has a five day plan...
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And whats even more worrying is that it seems to be a willful ignorance.
Course it is. If they weren't able to remain ignorant, they'd be at risk of changing their minds
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Nadine Dorries! Ha!
Can anyone imagine how such a vile person could get and keep a normal job for any period of time? Imagine interviewing that!
Unless you count ‘concentration camp incarceration enablement officer’ as a job description, of course. Which, funnily enough, is the direction in which we seem to be willingly careering.
Imagine Boris Johnson interviewing for a role of international strategy manager for a multinational company.
if only corbyn was listening........
The observer poll showing 100 constituencies have shifted from leave to remain mainly in the labour heartlands? It should stop the MPs runninc scared of losing votes if they back remain.
It should stop the MPs runninc scared of losing votes if they back remain.
If they back leave leave and they do not secure trade deals, increased benefits for farmers and the NHS and when things are not golden the tide will change and if they don’t have the money of Boris et al to leave the country they may find themselves the new enemies of the people.
