[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

and yet heaps of people want to come here to work from all over Europe and the world.

The MI6 guy was saying you cannot stop the sort of mass migration we are seeing from Africa and into Greece by border controls. If 1000's of people want to storm the border you cannot stop them. The same would apply to the UK, if 100's of boats made the crossing we couldn't stop them.

So how does this relate to the debate ?

His comments where we mist address the root causes of migration and praised Europe giving €1.5bn to African countries for developement to discourage imgration via Libya for example

Oh, praise for Europe!?!

...pointing out how ridiculous Cameron Is being in general

I assume "Cameron" is a typo? You meant Bojo as the man who is losing a grip as Tarzan noted yesterday.

Yunki, it's amazing just how many silly folk there are isn't it. 😉

jambalaya - Member
Boris. Very poor judgement on making the Hitler comparison, just derails the discussion for no god reason. I have to say Chapeau to him for pointing oit how ridiculous Cameron is being in general

I have to say hat to him for continuing to shamelessly lie through his teeth.

yunki - Member

I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Its all relative, I told a guy in Lagos once that I was British, he pulled a huge machete out of God-knows-where and started shouting "STW!" "Jambalaya!" "THM!" all while swinging the machete in a very threatening way. Once I explained I was SCOTTISH we got on fine. 😛
As alluded to by somebody else, I weirdly find myself on the same side as THM,I may have to join the Brexits...Oh hang on; that's Jamby AND ninfan...

ROFL - take long to compose duckie? One of your better ones....

I have to say hat to him for continuing to shamelessly lie through his teeth.

I wonder if at this stage he actually realises he's lying, or if, like Ronald Reagan, he has actually came to believe what he says is true.

Work of seconds THM, work of seconds.

he has actually came to believe what he says is true.

I think he's is just plumbed direct into the Farage sewer main, by the time it comes out his mouth he has no idea

Sadly, the latter, which is very scary...

Longer than I imagined duckie. You're a fast thinker (sic)

I feel the quality reflects the effort. Anyway...why is that the exit campaign are all over face book/twitter and the stay seems to have been limited to a glossy mailshot?

Chris Grayling sounded like an absolute idiot on Radio 4 this morning. John Humphries repeatedly asked him whether he agreed with Boris that the EU was trying to achieve the same as the third reich, and. repeatedly, he refused to answer the question. So we'll take that as a yes then Chris

I really can't, for the life of me see why people are daft or gullible enough to give these self-serving charlatans ridiculous, small-minded, dog-whistle opinions the remotest shred of credibility

Another nugget from the xenophobe Farage....

I'm only surprised Boris didn't beat him to it:

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-provokes-outrage-by-claiming-labour-wanted-to-rub-our-noses-in-diversity-a7034461.html ]Link[/url]

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Context please? Who are these people you've met?

So far your rant is just anecdotal & means diddly squat..

I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Yunki, you need to get out more!

Some food for thought:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3731/Half-of-people-in-nine-European-countries-believe-UK-will-vote-to-leave-the-EU.aspx

Farage now predicting violence, which side is project fear again?

Rivers of blood...

why is that the exit campaign are all over face book/twitter and the stay seems to have been limited to a glossy mailshot?

Remain is apparently all over Facebook - not a user myself - as the Tories showed in the General Election - Twitter is for gloaters, Facebook is for voters.

why is that the exit campaign are all over face book/twitter

Britain First and the EDL are ever present on Social Media. once the referendum is out of the way, they can get back to ranting about Muslamic ray guns...

That's just desperately sad for you. May I introduce you to some of my friends ?

bah! I've been mixing in the wrong crowds again 🙁

Just nipped into the barbers for a quick trim. Bit of a queue so needed to pass the time. The choice between the Wail, Torygraph (on one hand) and the Mirror on the other made it a long wait. Didn't bother with the Wail but the Brexit-trash in today's TG was quite something!!

An old Top Gear was a better read in the end! 😉

he pulled a huge machete out

@binners sadly politicans are good st being politicians, he shouod have just said it wasn't Boris's finest moment. However, yes the EU is trying to take over and yes Germany is its most influential member

All those in favour of labour "protection" laws should read up about riots in France at the moment, 16,000 youths in Paris yesterday, usual vandalism and tear gas. 300 police injuries inlast few weeks policing such demostrations all becuase Hollande recognises that French Labour laws must be reformed to address 25% unemployment. At least its better than when Sarkozy tried and there was a spree of car buring.

@Northwind sadly student visas where widely abused and add that to the fact the government can't control eu migration non eu students are on the receiving end. Another benefit of vote leave is we can free up stufent visas again but with greater checks on whether people actually attend the Uni and ensure they leave afterwards or apply for a different visa

As for social media I think that reflects the active campaigning of Leave, the instiutional odds are stacked against us but we care about the referendum. Its our key weapon in winning, we are passionate and motivated to campaign and vote.

Just nipped into the barbers for a quick trim.

That will be a bit of a problem post-Brexit, as most of the barbers in my price bracket are Eastern European.

People are too scared to break from the norm. I find it very sad.

I don't think people wishing to remain are doing so out of fear. I have sensed that much of the fear comes from Brexiters wary of foreigners. We all know that the European immigration system is a bit of a mess at the moment, but I would rather be involved as a nation to try to do something about it.

As seen before it can be difficult to seem excited about a current system that is clearly imperfect when the alternative promised is utopia.

I also think the argument that we can allow more people from the Commonwealth to come to the UK if we don't have to let in more Eastern Europeans is a bit of a red herring to make them sound good.

I have spoken to many Brexiters who are no more keen to see "****'s" come here over "poles"!

jambalaya - Member

@Northwind sadly student visas where widely abused and add that to the fact the government can't control eu migration non eu students are on the receiving end. Another benefit of vote leave is we can free up stufent visas again but with greater checks on whether people actually attend the Uni and ensure they leave afterwards or apply for a different visa

For the first, no not really, and the processes to deal with it not only already existed, but were used, and successfully. Most of the early abuses were due to implementation failures when the new visa system was introduced, and most since then relate to colleges not universities.

None of this is at all connected with the current lunatic agenda to make the UK a less attractive location to study- it is 2 completely separate issues that people try to blur together.

And for the latter, that's in no way a benefit of voting leave. Everything you mention is already done or could be done today.

Interesting you say that Doc. I was hoping to go to the Turkish barbers for the full works but the queue was even longer there, so had to go back to Sweeney's

In little town/large village there were six barbers all at very different pricing. Along came the benefit scroungers (sic) opened up new salon with the cheapest prices and the best experience - hot towels, burning the hairs of your ears (!!!, lemon scent, massage, wet shaves etc. They are mobbed now. Why? Better service AND pricing. Brilliant - bring on free movement of labour etc....

and add that to the fact the government can't control eu migration

Like £350m how often does this lie have to be repeated? It wont make it true..

As seen before it can be difficult to seem excited about a current system that is clearly imperfect when the alternative promised is utopia.

Now when did we last hear this....? 😉

All those in favour of labour "protection" laws should read up about riots in France at the moment

Yes, the French are simply frightful! It'll be a bally blessing when we can finally brick up that dreadful tunnel and no longer have to deal with them

As for social media I think that reflects the active campaigning of Leave, the instiutional odds are stacked against us but we care about the referendum. Its our key weapon in winning, we are passionate and motivated to campaign and vote.

[img] [/img]

🙂

Jambas - serious question re FR unemployment - yes, its a problem and unlike the rest of EU/EU average the trend is not getting better.

So what are the EU-specific factors at play here versus the domestic ones?

French bureaucracy and labour legislation have uniquely domestic drivers more than EU ones surely, although granted having a fixed FX rate doesn't help.

IMO, Brexiteers attempt to play the EU as the bogeyman behind any/all the region's problems - hence my quote from the NIESR yesterday on migration - instead of focusing on the real problems and their drivers.

Its rather like Salmond and the English/Westminster and sadly a surprisingly successful tactic in the era of post-truth politics.

This is what happened in the Scottish debate. People are pinning all their grievances on the side they have already decided they don't like. I don't like X, the EU supports X so we need to leave. With no indication that post leave UK would stop X when it could just as easily make X worse.

Edit: lol THM

even more bizarre, are the people arguing for an EU exit, on the basis that the EU opposes X, so do they, but our government loves it.

(where X = TTIP)

teamhurtmore - Member
Jambas - serious question re FR unemployment - yes, its a problem and unlike the rest of EU/EU average the trend is not getting better.
So what are the EU-specific factors at play here versus the domestic ones?

ahwiles - Member

even more bizarre, are the people arguing for an EU exit, on the basis that the EU opposes X, so do they, but our government loves it.

(where X = TTIP)

Yup. This is exactly what Jamba's trying to do with his overseas students line. Take something that's got ****-all to do with the EU, where all the issues come from the current government, and say it'll all be AWESOME if you just vote exit.

@tmh driving down wages. I suppose Tim who opened up Tony and Guy's and then built a chain of shops didn't deserve a nice house on Fort Road or a used 911 ? I wonder how many of those cheap barbers claim in work benefits or child support allowances - possibly none.

@athgray I accept your point, there indeed some who want no more P's for example. However with a controlled system we could set quotas as the Americans did with their Green card system. Why not allow access for the persecuted Muslim minorities in Burma ? I'd wager they'll be more than happy to come and we won't see them on the Stop The War marches bitching about Blair or Iraq or complaining about being discrimintaed against for wearing a Burka. Why not use an allowance of say 10,000 per anum for work/stufent visas with countries as a negotiating stance for trade deals - we have world class education respected the world over amd there is a long of people from India or China prepared to pay decent money (ie market rate) well above £9k per anum for it. How about expanding offshore campuses (like Insead have in Singapore) with government or private money to export British ideas and education with a gauranteed exchange to the UK (as per Insead). All tied in with trade deal.

Obama has focused towards Asia as its outperforming stagnating Europe, we should exit the EU and do the same. Thats a key engine of future growth for us outstripping Europe by some margin. Woth controlled immigration we take the best and brightest from all over the world adding real value to Britian and making sure they mire than pay their way in the same way Singapore does - take immigrants who bring skills, pay plenty of tax and ideally require no / little in the way of public services (ie no kids, can't stay when they are older and require expensive health care and/or compulsory private health care)

If Europe don't want a trade deal that works for us we don't have one. Import duties will favour us financially, we take in more than we'd pay out. Any inflationary impact (likely small, avg tarifs 3%) would IMO be wiped out by a significant appretiation in sterling over the medium term as Europe stagnates and in all liklihood implodes under a Greek default and contagion to Portugal, Italy and Spain.

Yes all a scenario, a very brigh one and we cannot know the future, but guess what we don't know the future with Remain either

Given how close (the polls suggest that) the vote is going to be, its interesting how (largely) one-sided the debate it is on here - is there something unrepresentative about people who wear odd clothes to ride bikes down slopes?

Think he ignored that one 3 pages ago

Buring police cars on French TV, motorways (peage), ring roads and ports blocked by lorries - my mate cannot drop off some goods he has to at Le Havre - blocked for 2 days now. Conducive to business ? Understand this is the attitude at the heart of the EU

@tmh absolutely unrepresentative as we know, look at the GE. The more right leaning an Leave folk on here don't post regularly on the political chats (but did answer the did you vote Conservative thread). In my experience the level of abuse you get for doing so isn't worth it for most people so they don't bother. Add to that the silver surfers or non-online crowd who will vote but don't post on stw

Which one of these things is eu law jamby

I wonder how many of those cheap barbers claim in work benefits or child support allowances - possibly none.

I wonder how many of those cheap barbers claim in work benefits or child support allowances - possibly none.

Possibly correct!

...we have world class education respected the world over amd there is a long of people from India or China prepared to pay decent money (ie market rate) well above £9k per anum for it. How about expanding offshore campuses (like Insead have in Singapore) with government or private money to export British ideas and education with a gauranteed exchange to the UK (as per Insead). All tied in with trade deal.

we do this already, especially private sector secondary education

Obama has focused towards Asia as its outperforming stagnating Europe, we should exit the EU and do the same. Thats a key engine of future growth for us outstripping Europe by some margin.

Not mutually exclusive - we already trade actively with Asia. Our largest bank was on the verge of relocating there...

take immigrants who bring skills, pay plenty of tax and ideally require no / little in the way of public services (ie no kids, can't stay when they are older and require expensive health care and/or compulsory private health care)

We do this already. Already quoted stats that show that EU migrants contribute more than non-EU migrants.

If Europe don't want a trade deal that works for us we don't have one.

Not a great idea and fortunately an unlikely outcome

Import duties will favour us financially, we take in more than we'd pay out.

Im being thick - can you elaborate?

Any inflationary impact (likely small, avg tarifs 3%) would IMO be wiped out by a significant appretiation in sterling

Unlikely given above - recent FX trends also suggest the opposite don't they?

Oh gaaawwwdd we've still got over a month of this

could we not have the vote tomorrow?

even worse the longer this drags on and the more lies, half truths and nazi comparisons are made, the more immmigrants are blamed for all our ills ^^^^^ the the more that xenophobia and biggotry are pumped into the public sphere the more normal it becomes.

look what happened in America: first it was just the Teaparty saying the nasty stuff, next thing you know we are shitsurfing the wave to Trumpsville,

[i]Understand this is the attitude at the heart of the EU [/i]

Eh? The French have been doing this for years. In fact you have to admire their ability to mobilise ordinary folk.

Given how close (the polls suggest that) the vote is going to be, its interesting how (largely) one-sided the debate it is on here - is there something unrepresentative about people who wear odd clothes to ride bikes down slopes?

Analysing the demographics of the two sides could be a bit dangerous, I suspect...!

Buring police cars on French TV, motorways (peage), ring roads and ports blocked by lorries - my mate cannot drop off some goods he has to at Le Havre - blocked for 2 days now. Conducive to business ? Understand this is the attitude at the heart of the EU

Hang on a minute? So the French communists are running Europe now?

its just that yesterday it was Germany and their militaristic, ruthless industrial efficiency?

Just to clear it up.... which is it? Because those two equally ridiculous caricatures seem somewhat at odds with each other

Or do they do alternate days? I bet they do. Nigel says thats the kind of thing they'd do. Very 'European', that

Inflexible labour laws, very high employer tax burden (100% national insurance) for example.

Domestic or EU drivers? Lets be specific. If the latter then the trends would be common across the EU, non?

Understand that France (Spain similar) are powerful negotiating forces the other side of the table setting EU legislation.

I get that, hence I want UK to be in the most powerful position possible when negotiating with them. Outside the room, is not strong position to negotiate from 😉

This sort of protectionism cannot work, we are competing globally with countries who have no such laws.

Indeed, I am v anti protectionism. On the same grounds, lets have free movement of labour too 😉

We don't share them explicitly

A point worth repeating. We are getting there, thirty odd days to go to conversion!!

Which one of these things is eu law jamby

@kimbers - as i've said many times thank God it wasn't a 2 year process like in Scotland. Where that Referendum was much stronger it was backed up by a legal agreement to accept the result. I still say a Leave victory, especially a narrow one say 53 v 47, will be met with a massive fudge/stall/head in the sand and ignore the result reaction.

Laughed my -rse off when Tusk said the Uk leaving the EU would be chaos, I mean an EU President would know what chaos looks like after all.

Anyway, must focus on more productive uses of my time than making the same arguments constantly with the same people all of who's views are set. Undecided's are where it's at and there don't seem to be many of those on this thread.