[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Junkyard - lazarus

See third world sweat shop or the dark satanic mills to see what unregulated business would do to the working classes

Most of these third world sweat shops are in corrupt, undemocratic nations.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we....
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

(unless of course the workers vote for it)

This is why the EU is so dangerous, it is totally undemocratic, corrupt and open to manipulation from big business.

One of the reasons the late Bob Crow, trade unionist and champion of the working man was so vehemently opposed to the EU project.

I'm not really on a side here - I will vote IN, but I will hold my nose doing so essentially for the reasons given in Paul Mason's article.

Pretty much where I am too. I'm not a fan of the EU in its present form. To say the least. But the alternative is absolutely unthinkable. A newly crowned, and victorious King Boris and his uber-rightwing, neoliberal stormtroopers - the likes of John Redwood - being essentially handed a blank sheet of paper to draw up what they'd like our new legislative framework to look like?

Erm... no thanks!

Most of these third world sweat shops are in corrupt, undemocratic nations.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we....
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

Your faith in the right wing - Dave just cancelled his current union bashing laws to get them onside on the EU debate for example - is as touching as it is misguided

How else can one "liberalise" the employment sector without removing protections? Go on what will they do?

You may have noted that both of those criteria applied when we had the dark satanic mills and we will always have more employees than employers so clearly that fact alone cannot protect the workers.

I agree its strange that folk don't mind voting for folk who will erode their rights but that is democracy for you.

History teaches us that unrestrained employers will rather kill children than switch of machines

Pretty much where I am too. I'm not a fan of the EU in its present form. To say the least. But the alternative is absolutely unthinkable. A newly crowned, and victorious King Boris and his uber-rightwing, neoliberal stormtroopers - the likes of John Redwood - being essentially handed a blank sheet of paper to draw up what they'd like our new legislative framework to look like?

Erm... no thanks!

THIS I started of a fence sitter and unsure but when one looks at the most vocal Brexiters and one listens to their rationale I realised nothing could make me cross the lobby with this rabble

Its not a passionate yes but it is a definite yes.

DrJ like I said it makes a big difference if the job seekers have the right to come to the UK, outsourcing vs reducing in house Labour costs.

To respond to earlier questions as to why no other country is publically in favour of the UK leaving the EU. My answer is clear, its not in THEIR interest. The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it. If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum's in other countries. The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default, the rest of the world don't want the severe economic shock of a collapsing EU. The rest of the world don't give a stuff about whether the EU is good for us, whether we have a loss of sovereignty or whether membership costs us far too much for little in return.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we....
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

That only works if voters work like perfect theoretical voters. In other words, they aren't being manipulated by external factors. Unfortunately, they are, all the time. So it fails.

Binners and Junky my point entirely. You have no positive case for Remain, you are trading the medium and long term future of the UK for a short term tactical punt to try and stop one person, a small detail. Even if Remain wins its my view Boris will win the leadership contest in 2019. Osbourne has stuffed up his last two budgets and this campaign has shown (if you didn't know already) he's a poor speaker with no charisma.

Relying on the EU to "stop Boris" is such a negative stance, why not focus on Labour having an electable offering ?

jambalaya

whether we have a loss of sovereignty

😆

Relying on the EU to "stop Boris" is such a negative stance

Negative? In what way? Thinking what he'd do if he got a sniff of any real power, I'd say that anyone with anything between their ears would do anything they could to stop Boris and his little rightwing minions being allowed to enact their neoliberal agenda, unconstrained.

why not focus on Labour having an electable offering ?

Because thats a problem 4 years away. The EU referendum is next month

The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it. If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum's in other countries. The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

We're extremely lucky (and I have no idea how we're managing to get away with it) that the EU and the greater global community is thus far feeling sorry for us and willing to prop us up for a little longer, as long as we keep paying the rent..

I don't think their charity will last forever though, and it's a certainty that it will be withdrawn the minute we strike out on our own with mad intentions

A question I've always wondered about in Europe, this is maybe taking this off topic a bit, but do you think the Eurozone would have fared better if Britain had joined the Euro all those years ago. Does the Eurozone struggle because Britain didn't enter the Euro and go full bhoona in to things like that and Schengen? Is the Eurozone much weaker because it's essentially missing one of it's strongest economies?

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

Earth?

What evidence do you have for this? As in, things people have said? Cos it sounds at first reading like you are being a miserable curmudgeon. I'm going to press you to back up this statement.

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

😯

To respond to earlier questions as to why no other country is publically in favour of the UK leaving the EU. My answer is clear, its not in THEIR interest.

Them and us, them and us.

My answer is clearer still, [b]its not in all our interests[/b].

The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it.

No it doesn't although it is beneficial for both parties to cooperate with each other.

If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum's in other countries.

Possibly

The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default,

No they don't - shall we elaborate on UK exposure to date, its form and the protections that Osborne put in place?

the rest of the world don't want the severe economic shock of a collapsing EU.

Who does?

we have a loss of sovereignty or whether membership costs us far too much for little in return.

😀

No Joe - the € is in trouble because (1)the €-area does not fulfil the criteria required to be an optimal currency area and (2) even if it did, to be successful a common currency requires full monetary and fiscal policy integration which requires (higher levels of) political union. This is missing.

So wrong idea and badly implemented. Other than that....

[nowt to do with UK)

I do love rational discussion. Not as much as I like a full blown rant though.

You have no positive case for Remain,

Economic blocks is the way forward and yes the EU is not perfect but from a social, scientific and ecological pov remaining in certainly has short term benefits which suggests these will lead to medium & long term benefits.

The economic case for Leave is very, very weak

Still. Let's keep pushing down the road and follow the EU train. I'm sure good things will eventually come of it 😯

I'm sure good things will eventually come of it

Are you saying nothing good has ever come of it?

Sad, that so many of the remain camp are obsessed with just the economic factors associated with leaving / remaining.

Which is why its a relief that a quick scan of this thread alone suggests that this is not the case.

Is "so many" as in the "many millions" of nasty foreigners who keep coming in to get free health care?

I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the 'possible' impact of Britain going it alone. It's basically become a self fulfilling prophecy that we will fail before we have even tried.

Don't worry I think if you try hard you can win x factor and the lottery. Do you want it to happen, let's all send out some positive thinking and see if it works
Did it work yet?
Did it?
Did it?

Is "so many" as in the "many millions" of nasty foreigners who keep coming in to get free health care?

Peace & Love to all.

Sad, that so many of the remain camp are obsessed with just the economic factors associated with leaving / remaining.

Money makes the World go round (wrongly or rightly....) so, I think it's hardly surprising that some consider the economic effects to be rather significant.

Perhaps in your ivory tower in/out makes no difference?.....

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

Really?.....care to back that one up?

Binners and Junky my point entirely is a massive collection of non sequiturs and straw men

yes, yes it is 🙄

I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the 'possible' impact of Britain going it alone. It's basically become a self fulfilling prophecy that we will fail before we have even tried

you are about to do a descent its rocky its rough and the route is unpredictable

We advise its unwise to do it on the ridged 26 er and suggest you use the FS. you talk to us about negativity

We watch you crash but eventually you do get down

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

you are about to do a descent its rocky its rough and the route is unpredictable

We advise its unwise to do it on the ridged 26 er and suggest you use the FS. you talk to us about negativity

We are shocked to watch you smash it in record time. Everyone then follows like sheep

That's the vision I have!

Is it me or are the swivel eyed loons like Farage and Boris getting some traction and getting their noses in front?

Pigface - Member

Is it me or are the swivel eyed loons like Farage and Boris getting some traction and getting their noses in front?

No, I think the utopians lefties are still in the lead while the lemmings are just being herded accordingly.

I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the 'possible' impact of Britain going it alone.

And why do you think that might be? Hmm? Think about it....

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

I know people are finding this amusing or even perhaps a troll, which to me is just proof of the arrogant blinkered perspective we tend to have of ourselves.

get a grip!!

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

And why do you think that might be? Hmm? Think about it....

'The norm' meaning 'not having the country run by a bunch of ultra-rightwing nut jobs who want it to be some mythical sunny afternoon in 1953 again' I presume?

I think maybe people are putting a bit more thought into it than that flanagj 🙄

And Boris goes bananas 😆

Strange times indeed...

From this:

Oh my darling, oh my darling
Oh my darling, Heseltine
You're a tosser, you're a wanqer
And you're just a Tory swine

To this:

Lord Heseltine has said he would be "very surprised" if Boris Johnson become prime minister after his "preposterous, obscene" remarks during the European Union referendum campaign

I think Boris is definitely building up his part a bit much, and believing his own hype! The increasingly hysterical and scattergun approach to his incoherent and nasty ramblings means that when he loses this, and is unceremoniously deposited to the furthest reaches of the backbenches, he'll have very, very few friends or allies left. And the ones who's christmas card list he's still on are all certifiable anyway.

I suppose thats where having an ego the size of a continental shelf, and a complete absence of morals, ultimately gets you

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Are you a hermit?

What a very sad comment.

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

I think BoJo has done a deal with Cameron - do an inside job on Leave and we'll see you right on the leadership...

Can't see any rational explanation for Boris' behaviour. He's clearly not got any deep convictions regarding the EU, which is why John Humphries wouldn't let go of the "Two Telegraph Articles" on last week's R4 interview.

Are you a hermit?

What a very sad comment.

not really... just that if you get an opinion on Britain from those that are from elsewhere, they tend to see us as a bit of a joke IME..
For us to conceitedly assume otherwise is rather quaint and naive.. silly even perhaps

I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Jamba is it just me or did you completely miss mi6 guy saying that you can not stem an irresistible tide of migration with border controls. So i'm pretty baffled by your line of argument that turkey will stem the tide of migration, with border controls?

Boris. Very poor judgement on making the Hitler comparison, just derails the discussion for no god reason. I have to say Chapeau to him for pointing oit how ridiculous Cameron is being in general

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years

I cant say I have your experience and I have traveled and lived (and currently do live outside the UK) in a few places, what did you do to these people to get this negative feedback?

yunki - Member

I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

Come round to mine, I could introduce you to a couple of thousand kids who've chosen to uproot their lives and come here to study, at great expense. Despite this government's best and unceasing attempts to put them off.

Once you get past the diplomacy, the political correctness and sycophantism and get down to the real feelings, I don't think I've ever met anyone from anywhere with anything good to say about Britain in the last 25 years!

...and yet heaps of people want to come here to work from all over Europe and the world.