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So you want Corbyn to come out for stopping brexit and ignoring the vote? Immediate huge split in the party then as so many labour MPS take the Burnham line and there is a hard core of rabid outers as well.
The real problem I see in labourt is the total lack of talent and leadership anywhere. Its not as if there is an inspirational leader and all the folk who stood for the leadership " respect the will of the people"
I still would like you to say what you think he should do - not platitudes nor attacking me for questioning you but actually say what you think his stance should be.
Edit - I am neither a corbynista nor a momentum follower. The labour party lost me as a supporter a decade ago
He needs to grow a pair, * the press, who all hate him anyway, and say that this is a disaster that must be stopped
I'm really confused. First off I actually agree in principle with the above. Ultimately I hope the labour party can manoeuvre itself into a position where it can oppose brexit, either through a second vote or just cancelling it. Trouble is electoral reality gets in the way. If they oppose it, they lose the next election. It's as simple as that.
Hence my confusion. Your persistent - and misplaced IMO - criticism of Corbyn is that he's a naive idealist (6th form common room, Judean People's Front etc) who is not interesting in winning power, yet on the subject of brexit he and the rest of the shadow cabinet are pursuing an entirely pragmatic strategy in an effort to shore up their electoral prospects in the face of a currently unsolvable problem where labour members and MPs oppose brexit, but the voters support it. They are the only party IMO who have navigated the brexit cluster* without imploding (only just mind you!), so why would you want to threaten that? The time will come where they have to declare which side of the fence they're on, but now is not it. Time may be short but they can afford to wait, and hope that voters come round to a position which aligns with that of the party.
Trouble is electoral reality gets in the way. If they oppose it, they lose the next election. It’s as simple as that.
Brexit is more damaging than who wins or loss the next election, it will damage the country for generations. Any politician who rally cared about the country and it;s people would do the right thing and oppose brexit despite what effect that might have on their political career (and lets face it, it would probably now do more good than harm anyway).
Sorry if that came across as a personal attack Uncle Jezza. Wasn’t meant as one. You know I love you!
it just infuriates me that the left can’t see that they’re being led by a narcissistic charlatan, who through his misguided thinking (there’s a very good reason he was treated as a quirky irrelevance for his entire parliamentary career) is enabling a permanent, irreversible takeover of our legislature by the far right. A LABOUR leader is facilitating this. Stop and think about that for a minute. The Labour Party is facilitating this, because it’s now his personal fiefdom.
Corbyn will be judged by history as the man who allowed all the achievements of the Labour Party to be torched. What a legacy?
He’s an idiot! A deluded ego-fuelled, narcissistic half-wit. And just as much a product of populism as Trump. And basking in just the same self-satisfied glow. Though will little reason. Despite what his disciples would have you believe, it’s not actually like he won an actual election
We’re all going to be totally ****ed come next March. Why? Because of a number of shysters serving their own agendas. But he’ll have to shoulder a large percentage of that blame.
Something I doubt he’ll treat any more seriously than Cameron. He may but a Yurt instead of a boutique Shepherds Hut to write his memoirs in, but ultimately that’s what he’ll predictably do, and they’re contribution to this disaster will be just the same. And they’ll both pay the same price for it ie: none.
We’re the ones who’ll be doing that. For decades
Any politician who rally cared about the country and it;s people would do the right thing and oppose brexit despite what effect that might have on their political career
So now the criticism of Corbyn is that he should abandon any hope of governing so that he can pursue an ideological position on brexit? How times change!
Corbyn will be judged by history as the man who allowed all the achievements of the Labour Party to be torched.
I'm even more confused. So the best way of protecting labour's legacy is to not win power? Am I missing something here?
I'm a life long Labour voter.
I will continue to be.... But I will never forgive Corbyn for not truly opposing leaving the EU in the referendum.
I honestly think that if he had really got behind the Remain campaign we simply wouldn't even be in this **** storm in the first place.
What he’s doing goes against every principle of the Labour Party. And will destroy its entire legacy. Simple as that.
For someone so supposedly principled (and I don’t buy that shit for a minute) he comes across as ‘intensely relaxed’ (to use the Mandleson parleance) about that
And I totally agree that if he’d have actually bothered to turn up during the referendum we wouldn’t be in this mess. But he always wanted Brexit anyway....
I’ve voted labour in every single election, but Corbyn, and his whole Islington Cabal absolutely apall me.
And it absolutely mystifies me that there are people who can’t see through them and how their student level placard-waving nonsense is damaging the very people they’re supposedly meant to represent
people who can’t see through them and how their student level placard-waving nonsense
It's not that I can't see through it, I just don't think the placard waving nonsense really exists. All I see is politicians being politicians, who are trying to win an election in the face of extremely difficult electoral dynamics, so that they can implement their clearly stated policies. Take away all the hyperbole and tabloid nonsense and that's all that's left. In the end the real drivers of where we end up with brexit will not be people like Corbyn or JRM, but the usual mix of vested establishment interests and lesserly public opinion expressed through the ballot box.
Corbyn does genuinely not like the EU though. I don't agree with him but I see where he's coming from.
Binners it may be that Corbyn is playing a long game, allowing lots of rope and there's going to be a spectacular hanging of the right-wing. It may allow a reset back to the post-war settlement. On the other hand he may be an incompetent eejit but I have no easy way of judging as commentary and analysis is either against him or rabidly against him in the press/media.
We as a country have drifted too far rightwards in the last 40 years IMHO. It appals me the damage done to community cohesion to keep us isolated and ineffective.
And it absolutely mystifies me that there are people who can’t see through them and how their student level placard-waving nonsense is damaging the very people they’re supposedly meant to represent
It mystifies me that someone who claims to care so much isn't even a party member. It mystifies me that, when faced with a continually worsening electoral performance since 2001, someone would prescribe more of the same.
Corbyn is complicit in this mess... Him tripple whipping abstentions on key commons votes.. hypocrisy personified.
That's worse than the Conservatives .. At least the Conservatives are honest about raping our countries future.
Corbyn is complicit in this mess
Everyone is complicit in this mess. Including we the voters. Some however want to hang this purely on Corbyn though, which is daft. He's a bit-part player at most. Very good at being a scapegoat though, I'll give him that.
He’s a bit-part player
He's the leader of the opposition, and potentially the next prime minister..
I'm not seeing any leadership or opposition.
He's a joke and a hypocrite.
I’m not seeing any leadership or opposition.
Compared to the other side where we see no leadership and lots of opposition 😉
Compared to the other side where we see no leadership and lots of opposition
Exactly. Corbyns hypocrisy is such that he may as well sign up to the Conservative party ... He's essentially enabled the Conservatives by way of using the 3 line whip against his party on numerous occasions.
A 'man' who has a prolific history of voting against his own parties whip.
Yep so time to get over that and keep mounting the pressure through things like the peoples vote
Meanwhile the European Court of Justice gets to decide
Don't think it will make much difference though, it looks like Brexit come hell or high water, but if it does you can thank Scotland. 🙂
Well I wonder how hard they challenged it, would have been bad to have not opposed it but losing with a fight is acceptable
Ransos - do me a favour, please? Do us all a favour, for the love of god?!
Can you please stop asking why I haven’t joined the three quid trots, like yourself, to try and change the party? How many times now?
you must be bored with it by now? Christ knows I am.
Inadvertently you’re highlighting exactly the problem with Labour under Corbyn. According to you lot we’re all meant to join the movement, wave some placards and protest against all the injustice in the world. Down with this kind of thing. Whatever.
Brilliant! ! I’m 48 years old. Been there, done that 20 years ago. my political opinions were formed 30 odd years ago when the school bus took me past Parkside Colliery every day during the miners strike and I realised how ****ed up our society is
Nowadays I like my democracy to involve voting for the party i’ve Voted for all my life that isn’t led by a clueless half-wit
You should try it after you’ve done your A levels... is that ok comrade?
Binding
It's cool. Politics gets folk going 🙂
Can you please stop asking why I haven’t joined the three quid trots, like yourself, to try and change the party? How many times now?
You're asking me to change the record? You couldn't be more hypocritical if you tried.
The rest of your post is very wide of the mark, which is no surprise from someone so fond of his own voice.
So, I'll leave you to self-proclaiming your working class credentials from the mean streets of Ramsbottom, while doing sweet FA about the problems as you see them.
Inadvertently you’re highlighting exactly the problem with Labour under Corbyn. According to you lot we’re all meant to join the movement, wave some placards and protest against all the injustice in the world. Down with this kind of thing. Whatever.
Well your either in the tent pissing out or....
Don't like the direction of the Labour party find a way to change it, or just be a bit apathetic and whinge from the sidelines. If your so passionate against corbyn then what are you going to do about it.
If your so passionate against corbyn then what are you going to do about it.
Tricky one: if the prosecco has run out then I reckon it'll be a visit to the chocolate cafe.
What guacamole?
Oh how startlingly unpredictable? A cheap dig that I now live in a relativelynice suburb of north Manchester. (Oh... the glamour!) Something you’ve only mentioned about 12,000 times before. I got here by all manner of less salubrious places
The problem with you half-wits is that you can’t ecen recognise people who are your natural allies, preferring to berate and belittle them instead because apparently we’re not revolutionary enough to warrent being part of your ‘movement’ and your glorious revolution
Good luck trying to get Your messiah elected with that attitude
The problem with you half-wits is that you can’t ecen recognise people who are your natural allies, preferring to berate and belittle them instead because apparently we’re not revolutionary enough to warrent being part of your ‘movement’ and your glorious revolution
Yep, what you should definitely do is convince people by calling them half-wits. The irony being that Corbyn leads the Labour party because of arrogant bell ends like you, who are too dim realize it.
But perhaps I'm being unfair: the organic cheesemonger must be closed by now, so it's no wonder you're upset.
Good luck trying to get Your messiah elected with that attitude
Binners the point is if you are as you say a Labour man and want the party to represent you, not being a member and not getting involved is giving up. Direct one on three of your rants at the local Labour party and see where it goes. Not taking part doesn't help you, that is the point.
Have you been to a Momentum meeting? I have. They spent 20 minutes ‘debating’ how they were going to prevent MI5 assassinating Jeremy.
Thats what passes for political discourse in those circles. Get your tinfoil helmet on , hide under the table and brace yourself for permanent Tory government
oh... Ransos .. the mousetrap is open til twelve, so if i’m Quick I can still get a nice Brie
Your problem, binners is that you pretty much alienate everyone. When was the last time you aligned yourself with another poster rather than tried to offend them?
I'm a life long Labour supporter, have no great loyalty to Corbyn, although I like McDonnel through my trade union roots and am a remainer. Calling people on your side half-wits isn't a bright place to go.
Wine has been taken.
Thats what passes for political discourse in those circles. Get your tinfoil helmet on , hide under the table and brace yourself for permanent Tory government
Nothing to be done then. Not that you're all mouth and no trousers.
Wine has been taken here too. I apologise for the half-wit comment. Out of order. Sorry.
Wine? Oh how the bourgeois live these days.....
I only dip into this thread occasionally as thinking of Brexit too much genuinely ends up "upsetting"me.
Looking at the posts on the last couple of pages I think I can see why all parties can get so riled up about Brexit and surrounding issues.
Its a paradox within an enigma covered deep in a pile of steaming s***.
Like I say, it upsets me. 😉
I am whole square behind binners. I was a life long Labour supporter until Labour lost the ability to stand up for hard pressed workers in Scotland. Corbyn's stance on the EU I am sure would be a disgrace if I fully understood what it was. Corbyn suffers from too much woolly idealism that ultimately means nothing! Labour really don't need a wet leader at the minute. This is a Tory government that should be getting mauled, whilst Corbyn is mired in dealing with anti-semitism rows. Theresa May must be thankful that the bearded one is her nemesis right now. If he can't beat a minority government propped up by a bunch of Ulster 'Just say NEVER' creationists' then there is really no hope. Move over Santa and as per your mail, give Margo from Macclesfield a go!!
Can I just ask, all those Blair haters and Corbynistas , what do you think Alastair Campbell would be doing with this Tory dissaray? He’d have been making ****ing mincemeat of them, that’s what!
Instead.... nothing. Absolutely nothing! Politically clueless. The story of Corbyns career.
Any Opposition worthy of the name would have this lot out on the ropes by now. It’s an open goal.
mike, I normally like your posts, however what is a photo of what looks like a posh fish and chips with tartare sauce and what I assume is mushy peas supposed to achieve, other that being a cheap dig?
here, here to your last post binners
bravo scotroutes
I think you're all being a bit hard on Corbyn. There's barely a decent bit of legislation that he's not prepared to whip his MPs into abstaining on.
What we need....
What we’ve got
I saw a video today of a cat being bossed by a rat!!
Part of the problem, as far as i see it, is that we are looking at different things from different angles.
Labour members aren't the same thing as Labour voters, and neither is the same thing as the general electorate. The same is true of our Conservative brethren.
Party Members exude a fervency that simply does not exist in the general body politic.
There is a rational argument to be made that to 'be the change you want to see' you must first make yourself electable, and this will always require compromise.
One of the most inexcusable failures of our first Coalition Government was that it put the electorate off the idea of coalition Governments per se. One would argue that this was actually its biggest failure, and was a huge contributory factor to our subsequent woes.
The overiding inexcusable failure of our first Coalition Government was thus the shameful inclusion of this damned Referendum promise to make another coalition less likely.
We need more consensus, more compromise, more coalition, not less.
"One of the most inexcusable failures of our first Coalition Government was that it put the electorate off the idea of coalition Governments per se. One would argue that this was actually its biggest failure, and was a huge contributory factor to our subsequent woes."
Lead to that amazing bit where the Tories, who'd been kept in power by a coalition and were about to enter another one, said that coalitions were a terrible idea and you had to avoid them at all costs.