https://www.youtube.com/embed/Fo-k-Qosy8A
What's the STW view on this?
Personally I think it makes perfect sense, however there is an argument that phones will be bulk and less "slick".
Apple also need to be called to task to some of their practices.
good news as far as I am concerned. I hope that the manufactures dont go down the 2 version route and have an EU only compliant versions. Where this is really good is that its all products with batteries so tablets, laptops, cars etc
Removable batteries means more batteries being prematurely binned. Now replaceable batteries, that absolutely needs to be mandated. Right to repair is important, where as easily swappable batteries can be counterproductive environmentally.
I reckon requiring replaceable batteries will reduce reliability as complexity is been added and folk are more likely to buy/use 3rd party ones. It will also add bulk and impact moisture protection.
I reckon requiring replaceable batteries will reduce reliability as complexity is been added and folk are more likely to buy/use 3rd party ones. It will also add bulk and impact moisture protection.
This. This will stump even Apple!
I reckon requiring replaceable batteries will reduce reliability as complexity is been added and folk are more likely to buy/use 3rd party ones. It will also add bulk and impact moisture protection.
I disagree.
My first smart phone was a Galaxy S3, pretty sure that had a replaceable battery? No reliability issues?
Regards bulk and moisture protection, I've never had a smart phone without a 3rd party protective case anyway.
. It will also add bulk and impact moisture protection.
IP68 rated (waterproof and dust proof) have been around since the 1990’s. Its not a technology issue
daft idea, shall we add this as a positive to brexit thread :0)
This should have been introduced on EV cars very early doors and could save alot of the headaches that are being faced now.
Whats the benefit for a mobile phone though, apart from not having to pay someone to change your battery? it wont mean phones last any longer as the manufacturers will still make them obsolete from updates perspective, and if anything it will waste more batteries I it becomes less faffy to change a battery.
I am sure Apple will find a way to make the phones only work with their batteries
I have a Samsung xcover5 with a replaceable battery. The rear cover is removable yet waterproof. It coped with Canyoning this summer, but the power button did misbehave for a few concerning hours...
The battery cover and battery were totally dry and the wee moisture sensitive patch was fine too.
For many people, me included, the only reason I change my phone is because the battery has died.
Every high street has a shop that'll do it. under £50 for an IPhone at our local one.
daft idea, shall we add this as a positive to brexit thread :0)
= 87)
Brexit makes no difference here. Manufacturers will comply with EU regs when it comes to it, and we'll be using whatever that means, being outside the EU doesn't mean escape from the effects of EU regs when it comes to consumer hardware... just a complete lack of control over them.
Universal charging points are coming (eg Apple will have to dump their proprietary Lightning port from everything soon, they transitioning with each new device they launch) to comply with EU regs... and that will apply to Apple devices sold here, not just in the EU.
I find that my phone starts playing up with software and compatibility issues way before the battery dies so I've never changed a battery.
Ideally I'd like phones to be supported for much longer on the software and hardware sides, the number of mobiles the average person must have sitting unused in a drawer somewhere must be crazy.
A good long read here...
Every high street has a shop that’ll do it. under £50 for an IPhone at our local one.
And Apple will do any iPhone with a genuine battery for £89.
the number of mobiles the average person must have sitting unused in a drawer somewhere must be crazy
In this house, we get more than 10 years out of a phone. I'd welcome a doubling of that, but I don't see that coming any time soon. Phones we have in drawers would work perfectly fine for 80% of their intended use, but keeping software support for them (apps and secure websites, not just the OS) would be a huge ask.
Every high street has a shop that’ll do it. under £50 for an IPhone at our local one.
And Apple will do any iPhone with a genuine battery for £89.
The battery itself can be bought for about £20.
This should have been introduced on EV cars very early doors and could save alot of the headaches that are being faced now.
Not wishing to derail the thread but not really - given the lifetime of car batteries (well over a decade) and the way that they have to be packaged - you cannot just put them in the boot - we do ok as it is. The labour cost of getting the battery out in a garage is far less than the cost of materials to refurbish it; you're not likely to replace the whole thing you need to find and replace bad cells, which is a skilled job; and finally even if you could pop it out and replace it at home they weigh 3-500kg so not even a home job then.
I do think it will present a design challenge - phones won't be quite as thin any more, but how important is that?
Ideally I’d like phones to be supported for much longer on the software and hardware sides, the number of mobiles the average person must have sitting unused in a drawer somewhere must be crazy.
Seems to be slowing down now as phones are mature and as long as yours doesn't break it will continue for a while. My phones used to break every 2 years, but this current one is still going strong.
I am sure Apple will find a way to make the phones only work with their batteries
Nikon already do this. Cameras, not phones, obvs 🙂
And Apple will do any iPhone with a genuine battery for £89.
Took my phone to Apple (on Regent St ) to get a new battery and they refused to do it unless I also replaced the screen, which had a minute chip in it (that I hadn't even noticed). Quick google, got it done nearby for half the price.
I reckon requiring replaceable batteries will reduce reliability as complexity is been added and folk are more likely to buy/use 3rd party ones. It will also add bulk and impact moisture protection.
It's just a design and packaging problem, and it's not like it's never been done before, removable/replaceable batteries were the norm for the first Decade or so of the Mobile industry's existence, if the poor little dears can't think their way round this one, maybe they don't deserve to make Cajillions flogging us plebs future E-waste?
The only reasons phones are glued together now is aesthetics and to frustrate user repair efforts. My last mobile with a removable/replaceable battery wasn't particularly bulky (admittedly that was well over a decade ago now), I'm not convinced manufacturers or punters are actually all that concerned by size either, modern phone are mostly pretty substantial anyway.
Honestly if they can start making the bastard things bend in the middle, they can reintroduce replaceable batteries. It's hardly rocket surgery.
Removable batteries means more batteries being prematurely binned. Now replaceable batteries, that absolutely needs to be mandated. Right to repair is important, where as easily swappable batteries can be counterproductive environmentally.
I'm fine with batteries being replaced to extend a phone/tablet/laptop's useful life and reduce E-waste. Better to be binning/recycling a battery than the whole device surely?
It's interesting that they reckon the same regulations will cover EV batteries, making those more easily replaceable could have a significant impact on the sector.
For all the "Innovation" in the world of leccy powered, portable toys the choice to make batteries hard to replace tells a story about how lots of companies see their role in sustainability.
I’m fine with batteries being replaced to extend a phone/tablet/laptop’s useful life and reduce E-waste. Better to be binning/recycling a battery than the whole device surely?
That's the hope. The reality is people replace the battery when it's stopped giving them the long use they got when brand new, or worse buy a few spares (that's what I used to do)... and still replace the device in the same timeframe anyway. Making them a screwdriver and pick job means people are likely to stick with their "less than 80% capacity" battery for years more, rather than swapping in a £20 battery every year.
I love folk boasting about their skinny phones that they immediately stick in a bulky case.
given the lifetime of car batteries (well over a decade) and the way that they have to be packaged
Thats wishful thinking, try 3 -5 years is more likely. There is huge amounts of research being done to identify uses for car batteries that arent good enough to power cars anymore.
Th eUK government is spending £27.6m on research in to the problem https://www.ukri.org/news/delivering-the-future-of-battery-technology/
The US government $80m https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/11/20221117-doerecycling.html
The EU is spending 67m euro on 1 project looking at the problem https://climate.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-12/if_pf_2022_relieve_en.pdf
Ideally I’d like phones to be supported for much longer on the software and hardware sides...
This is a good point, mandating a minimum support period from date of first sale would make sense, how long do they typically provide OTA updates official spares these days?
The Boss found her old iPhone 6c (I think) in a drawer the other day, she charged it up and is appears to still be functional without any screen damage, held it's charge for a couple of days (doing nothing on the side). If she can remember her pin for it and we can get the sim lock taken off it might be a useful spare or worth wiping and flogging. but they're completely unsupported by apple now aren't they?
it wont mean phones last any longer as the manufacturers will still make them obsolete from updates perspective, and if anything it will waste more batteries I it becomes less faffy to change a battery.
I am sure Apple will find a way to make the phones only work with their batteries
Oh dear, not the tired old myth of manufacturers making devices obsolete due to updates! Anyone with a reasonable grasp of how any device that has a computer built in, like a smartphone, will suffer performance degradation over time due to the continuous improvement of software development eventually exceeding the ability of the hardware to cope with the demands placed on it. This is a fundamental problem right across the industry. Unlike many manufacturers who build cheap Android phones, and who never provide updates, Apple continually send out updates until a performance limit is reached, but even after that they send out security patches to maintain privacy and security, so it’s perfectly possible to keep an iPhone running for years, it’s limits will be maximum storage and battery life, and possibly screen degradation.
It’s worth noting that Apple don’t make either screens or batteries, so the life of either is no different to devices from anyone else.
Not wishing to derail the thread but not really – given the lifetime of car batteries (well over a decade) and the way that they have to be packaged – you cannot just put them in the boot
That’s not true, not if you expect your car to start on cold mornings. A car battery should be replaced every four or five years, their capacity degrades over time exactly like any other battery, it’s down to charge cycles. You can buy a little device that plugs into the aux socket to check charge %. I’ve got a couple that I used at work to check cars in storage. I had to call out the AA once on holiday after my car wouldn’t start, it was the original one and was, at that time around 12-13 years old. It’s capacity was just over 50%.
I replaced my iPhone 6+ when it was over five years old, I’d maxed out its storage, the battery was down to about 60%, and the screen was showing signs of failing, so it wasn’t worth spending money on it.
Now I’m on a contract that allows me to upgrade any time I want, which will be every year, the phone I swap will be in perfect condition, have 98% battery, will be refurbished and resold, so everyone wins.
so everyone wins.
Of course they do...
That’s not true, not if you expect your car to start on cold mornings.
It's EV batteries, ICE batteries have been replaceable for quite some time, even the little gelpacks type batteries in Stop Start cars. 48V in mild hybrids are doable (i could do mine with the tools i have at home), but not that easily. Mainly as it's heavy, awkward to get at and well strapped in.
I'm pretty sure that someone will quite literally blow themselves up trying to swap their EV battery. Especially once it becomes mainstream. Doesn't matter how many safety interlocks you have, someone will stick their finger in a hole they shouldn't.
That's wishful thinking, try 3 -5 years is more likely.
Nah, afraid not. If you treat them sensibly and don't do anything stupid, EV batteries will do 2 or 3 times that. At least. We've got durability cars that have 200000km on the original hardware with no more than an occasional coolant swap.
It's almost like saying a car engine will only do 100000 miles, then adding the criteria that you're always over 4000 rpm and loaded at MGVW and won't get it serviced until a fault light comes on.
CountZero
Oh dear, not the tired old myth of manufacturers making devices obsolete due to updates! Anyone with a reasonable grasp of how any device that has a computer built in, like a smartphone, will suffer performance degradation over time due to the continuous improvement of software development eventually exceeding the ability of the hardware to cope with the demands placed on it. This is a fundamental problem right across the industry. Unlike many manufacturers who build cheap Android phones, and who never provide updates, Apple continually send out updates until a performance limit is reached, but even after that they send out security patches to maintain privacy and security, so it’s perfectly possible to keep an iPhone running for years, it’s limits will be maximum storage and battery life, and possibly screen degradation.
A Galaxy S10 for example received its last update in March this year, but is still more than capable of running the latest apps and OS. It's far far more powerful still than my wife's latest budget phone which itself runs the latest version of Android. The S10 has only stopped receiving updates because it's expensive for Samsung to do and they don't make any money from doing so. That's the only reason.
My S10 no longer runs banking apps or anything with a security portal properly (so i can't get to the kids school reports or my works time booking stuff or the hospital portal).
It lasted 4 years though.
This should have been introduced on EV cars very early doors and could save alot of the headaches that are being faced now.
This law does apply to EV batteries.
But don’t misunderstand it. As the video points out, the law is going to require that batteries are removable, not that they are easily removable or tool free.
So don’t expect phones with backs you can pop off again any time soon. The battery will be removable, in that it won’t be glued in, but it’ll still require tools to get at it.
Thats wishful thinking, try 3 -5 years is more likely.
<looks out the window at the four year old EV sat on the drive still with 100% of original range>
Er, bollocks.
I am sure Apple will find a way to make the phones only work with their batteries
They all ready have. The software to measure battery usage/performance/degradation will not work with third party batteries. (Having recently replace a 6S battery through the people in our local ASDA).
It’s interesting that they reckon the same regulations will cover EV batteries, making those more easily replaceable could have a significant impact on the sector.
Would it? They hardly ever fail, and removing the failed ones is not the main problem, and removal doesn't damage the rest of the car.
Unless you meant it might encourage hot-swappable interoperable batteries...?
Fairphone don’t seem to have issues with IP ratings for their phones and headphones.
This is a good point, mandating a minimum support period from date of first sale would make sense, how long do they typically provide OTA updates official spares these days?
I believe there is EU legislation imminent with a five year minimum support period for this.
I believe there is EU legislation imminent with a five year minimum support period for this.
Apple already support back about eight years (plus a few extra years on top of that for security patches).
Fairphone don’t seem to have issues with IP ratings for their phones and headphones.
WAY behind others. Latest phone is their first to pass IP54. Others have been at IP68 for years.
But they are new, small and by far the most ethical and sustainable phone out there. The big players can and should be learning from their approach.
If they can make a phone like they do then the big players have the budget and ability to do the same. It’s the will to do so that’s missing, hence why legislation is needed. Easily repairable by the end user wi readily available parts needs to be the ultimate goal.
Edit - The EU support regs are looking at update period from point that the device stops being sold as new. So minimum of five years from that point.
I’ve got a couple of ‘obsolete’ iPhones. I use one, plugged into a minirig setup, as an alarm clock and music player. That’s an iPhone 5 I believe, possibly 5s. I also have a 6s in the garage that I use for music when I’m in there.
My current phone is an XR given to me a couple of years ago. I thought I might have to update this time but it seems it will be supported for at least one more year, which means it will have lasted 6 years as a main phone when it is replaced - not too bad in my opinion. It will then go into service as one of my music players, and I’ll find something else to do with 5.
The battery? It is still good except in the cold. When I use it to record my rides in the winter the capacity drops alarmingly - it has even shut itself down. The rest of the time it’s ok, and I know a guy with a market stall who’ll replace it for £30.
Repairability is good, but I cannot see this making much difference. I’m more pleased that Apple will have to use USB on their tech rather than lightning - that will save me carrying a few cables around (though I’ve heard Apple don’t care much as they’re moving to wireless charging soon anyway).
We’ll be using smar****ches increasingly in the future (central locking, store payments, loyalty cards, gp appointments, etc)
Personally, I’d love to see the regular watch manufacturers (Casio), offer an easy (idiot-proof) way to replace the battery on a G-Shock.
We’ll be using smar****ches increasingly in the future (central locking, store payments, loyalty cards, gp appointments, etc)
I won't be!
Me either. Screen is way too small to be functional for a lot of stuff. I’ve been playing Cyberpunk recently so I’m opting for direct retinal interface as the way forward!
Will this apply to Garmin's?