Hey Singletrack forum,
I was hoping to get a little bit of feedback from the wealth of knowledge that is the singletrack forum!
I'm an industrial design student from UWIC Cardiff and am starting my final year undergraduate project which is aiming to improve energy gel packaging usability and sustainability.
I'd love any feedback and have put together a quick questionnaire that I would be hugely appreciative if everyone could click and answer a quick 10 question survey.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RDC2MXC
Many Thanks!Feel free to pm me or message me if you have any advice.
Done.
Out of curiosity, what do you see as the main problems with existing designs?
I spoke to Matt Hart of Torq about biodegradable or recyclable packaging, and he said it wasn't possible to get a tough enough package for the right cost using such materials.
How about stitching them into users pockets on elastic so they dont end up littering the trails!!!
done
you have no email address in your profile?
[i]Out of curiosity, what do you see as the main problems with existing designs?[/i]
I don't think he/she signed up to answer any questions...
What I really need is a newsagents that sells jelly babies in paper bags, mmmmmm nutritious and eco friendly.
Done. Like to see what you come up with too 🙂
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.
It wont stop people dropping the packs, but would stop people littering the tops.
survey completed
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.It wont stop people dropping the packs, but would stop people littering the tops.
survey completed
Clif have already done it but since they are such a nice bunch of guys they patented the idea. So if you want to go down that route you have to pay them for the privilege of caring about littering. Sits well with their image of being all organic & fluffy doesnt it?
Clif have already done it
oh. I dont use theirs. Not likely to now either if that's patent thing is true.
What a bunch of *****
Survey done. Its quite good to see that other people despair at littering as much as I do. I shall never buy another Clif bar - C***s.
Yep its true - I heard it from a VERY reliable source in the energy food biz. Trust him 100%.
Done. Less waste please!
The patent system needs a good looking at, I think. I'm sure it was intended to encourage innovation and investment in research, not to function as an intellectual land grabbing mechanism.
Survey completed. Ideally, somehow, you'd be able to open and consume a gel with one hand (and yes, the top would remain attached to it to reduce littering) I find the SIS style thinner tubes are easier to use.
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask. Much quicker to use on the bike, no mess, and you can hold about 5 in one flask. Just requires a bit of forward planning before the ride/event to set them up.
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It'd be interesting to see the results of the survey, I'd imagine that from reading it it'll appear that no-one litters as I can't see many people answering the question to say that they just chuck the gel wrappers on the ground.
I reckon that what you need for gels is some kind of a syringe with the gel in it. You can get it out easily rather than squirting it out of the wrapper ad they'd be reusable as well 🙂
The answer is...bananas.
...biodegradable or recyclable packaging...
Piece of cake. Available off the shelf. Right now. But no one will pay the upcharge to get it into the market.
That makes sense if you are talking about kids choc bars, but energy products are expensive; an extra £10 per thousand on the packaging would make little difference. But it's much easier to say "we've looked at it, it isn't feasible"
Cobblers.
energy gels are revolting, how anyone eats more than one ever is beyond me.
I'm with you emsz. Hate the things. I just eat food instead.
make a wrapper out of banana skins, then you can be guilt free throwing it away into the nearest bush 🙂
You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them. They work for some folk who don't like drinking energy drink. I'd recommend the Torq ones cos they actually taste quite nice, like liquid sweeties.
make a wrapper out of banana skins, then you can be guilt free throwing it away into the nearest bush
...unless TJ finds out
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask
I had [have] one, OK when it's full but took too much time when it was less than half full to squeeze out a feed
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.
I reckon this already happens on 90% of the gels I use
I work in the packaging industry, particularly manufacturing the type of films used for gels, bars etc so fel free to start the flaming.
There is still not a real solution for packaging bars and gels in bio-degradable film as these products usually have a very long shelf life due to the relatively slow sales and usage pattern. Most consumers wouldn't be happy to see half the box of gels they bought at the start of the season turn into a gooey mess after 6 months. Also the nature of the product requires a good pack integrity hence heat sealing which makes them difficult to get into compared with chocolate or crips which use cold seal technology. Most bars are sold are relatively low in preservatives so again the film in which they are packed needs a good oxygen barrier and is usually a laminate of Polyester and Polyethylene to give the good seal, some have foil layers or metallised film but that is very expensive. Easy open tears and tags to retain the torn off portion is not new technology so I don't know where the comment regarding Cliff bars comes from, this is usually done by the filling machine and since most of these products are contract packed, it is down to investment by the packer.
I hope this sheds some light on a compplex issue, the only real solution is not to dispose of the wrappers irresponsibly, buying gels or bars in paper bags or corn starch based films is not practical given the other performance requirements of these packs.
[i]You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them.[/i]
eh? what d'you mean, are you shoving them up your bum
Interesting stuff pistonbroke, thanks.
Emsz - molly is 'straight-edge' energy gels are the closest he gets to getting high 🙂
Ref the clifbar comments, I'll bet that it's a US patent which like the horst link one only applies there. Their patent stuff tends to be silly as you can patent lots of things that just aren't new.
You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them.eh? what d'you mean, are you shoving them up your bum
I think he means that generally you don't use energy gels as a replacement for a ham sandwich. Personally I only use them in races or in an emergency "I'm about to bonk/die" type scenario. Apart from anything else, they're too bloody expensive to be knocking them back on regular social & training rides. They are, however, a very efficient way of getting quick calories into your system in a situation like a race.
The only one I ever ate had caffeine in it and I swear all the colours on the leaves and trees just went a bit funny.
I was jumping around like a kid on too many sweeties. 😆
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask.
I thought it was just me still using those. Far, far cheaper than gels in sachets as well.
oh yes check the caffeine levels. Some gels have masses...Torq Guarana for example. You really don't want to be popping those too often during a ride.
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask.I thought it was just me still using those. Far, far cheaper than gels in sachets as well.
..although I do tend to just buy Torq gels and decant them into flasks, so no money saved for me 🙄
Ref the clifbar comments, I'll bet that it's a US patent which like the horst link one only applies there. Their patent stuff tends to be silly as you can patent lots of things that just aren't new.
+1000 - the US patent office appears not to bother with prior art searches (or even having a quick think about whether something is likely to be new), relying instead on letting the courts sort it out. Doubtless the Clifbar* patent (if it exists) would fail if tested properly in a court, but it would cost lots of money for anybody to do that.
*replace "Clifbar" with "Horst link" as desired.
Pedalhead, you can make gels. Just get some Torq energy powder in a receptacle, add a small amount of water and let it sit overnight - instant gel. That's all it is.
Re Torq caffeine gel - take one with you on a long ride, and when you get to the end and you're knackered, take it - boom!
..although I do tend to just buy Torq gels and decant them into flasks, so no money saved for me
Ah - I make mine up from drink powder as with the original Hi5 gel flasks (Torq drink powder nowadays, so unless you're using the guarana ones, exactly the same as what you have in yours) No need to let sit overnight - just add a bit of water to the powder in the flask, shake, and let sit for 5-10 minutes.
You sure? I understood that most of the gels were based on brown rice syrup whereas powders are maltodextrin
As such, I think that gels have more of a quick hit (simpler sugars) but aren't so good for really long events.
Doubtless the Clifbar* patent (if it exists) would fail if tested properly in a court
Why? Seems novel and inventive to me?
Why? Seems novel and inventive to me?
Very much doubt it hasn't been done before. Just like horst link
good tips, thanks chaps. I'll try the powder + water trick. The powder is generally a 2:1 Maltodextrin:Fructose mix, the former is taken on quickly, the latter a bit more slowly, so I'm guessing there's not much difference in effect to a "proper" gel.
Just looking at the Clif patent, from a brief look at the claims I think its a particularly clever bit of design, not sure why the hate?!
http://www.google.com/patents?id=-uMQAAAAEBAJ&dq=6702462
http://www.google.com/patents?id=CM0HAAAAEBAJ&dq=Patent+6,244,467
http://www.torqfitness.co.uk/nutrition/torq-gel
"TORQ energy (TORQ’s energy drink) is formulated using the same 2:1 technology"
Of course the other advantage of mixing powder if you do long events as I (used to) do - you don't have to carry the water around. I used to carry powder on the first day of Polaris / MMs and mix up new gels at the start of the second day.
Just looking at the Clif patent, from a brief look at the claims I think its a particularly clever bit of design, not sure why the hate?!
Because it's a clever bit of design which somebody else had already done.
Mule have both compostable wrappers for their bars and a gel design that's easier to use so the top doesn't tear right off.
And the flavours are nice too.
I don't work for them, but if they see this and want to send me free stuff, address is in profile 😉
I use the Torq gels occasionally and can always rip the top enough to get the gel without ripping it right off. But then I can also use a Presta valve, which seems to be beyond many of the gorilla-handed on here.
aracer, what kind of powder/water ratio are we talking about? I'm guessing you're gonna be putting quite a bit of powder into the flask to make it worthwhile...?
Because it's a clever bit of design which somebody else had already done.
Oh. Didn't realise, how did it get through prior art etc? Who's done it before, would be interested to see.
aracer - Member[i]Ref the clifbar comments, I'll bet that it's a US patent which like the horst link one only applies there. Their patent stuff tends to be silly as you can patent lots of things that just aren't new.
[/i]+1000 - [b]the US patent office appears not to bother with prior art searches (or even having a quick think about whether something is likely to be new)[/b], relying instead on letting the courts sort it out. Doubtless the Clifbar* patent (if it exists) would fail if tested properly in a court, but it would cost lots of money for anybody to do that.
*replace "Clifbar" with "Horst link" as desired.
pedalhead - Member
aracer, what kind of powder/water ratio are we talking about? I'm guessing you're gonna be putting quite a bit of powder into the flask to make it worthwhile...?
You can find instructions here... http://www.torqfitness.co.uk/acatalog/info_66.html
where can I get one of those energy gel bottle thingamies?
.
the Torq Guarana bars were great in Morzine when the DTs start to set in - liquid confidence!
ooh good find, thanks druidh!
clubber - who [i]has[/i] done it before?
where can I get one of those energy gel bottle thingamies?
Just Google "gel flask"
what kind of powder/water ratio are we talking about? I'm guessing you're gonna be putting quite a bit of powder into the flask to make it worthwhile...?
You can almost fill to the top with powder - though if you do that you have to add a bit of water, shake to get the powder to settle, then add a bit more water, so better to leave ~20% air space at the top. Can't really help you with specific figures as I don't measure and it depends what consistency you want the gel (another bonus - you get to choose that), though that ~20% of water by volume is a decent start. Have a play around and see what works for you.
I think the companies who sell gels in landfill tubes could also sell the powder/mix and a flask in a pack. There's definitely something in the point of sale and the idea of a rider buying improvement. That way the gel folk keep selling their goop and a reduction of wrappers littering the trails/going in the ground.
Surely a sachet can be a paper/film jobby like an Oatso simple? I'd much rather have a little gel flask than a handful of sticky wrappers in a jersey pocket. But then again I prefer a banana to all of that anyway 😆
ooh good find, thanks druidh!
Indeed - I did mean to mention that you should use mostly unflavoured. Though as I mention, no need to use boiling water, and a shake in the flask works just fine, rather than all that kneeding in a bag - you can make up gel on the go.
[url= http://jibbering.com/sports/gels.html ]THIS SITE [/url] has a load of good sounding home-made gel recipes.
druidh - Member
clubber - who has done it before?
A quick look shows this for a start but I'm sure there are others
http://www.google.com/patents?id=CM0HAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
I think the companies who sell gels in landfill tubes could also sell the powder/mix and a flask in a pack.
High5 did many years ago - before gels in sachets were widely available (possibly even pre-dating gels in sachets - it certainly pre-dated High5 gels in sachets). I presume it wasn't a big seller as they stopped. All my gel flasks came that way (scary how many I own, hence how much of the stuff I bought) - not an original idea by me at all. When they stopped selling "gel powder" I even got advice from High5 to just use normal drink powder instead.
cheers aracer. I also have a load of maltodextrin etc from myprotein sitting here, so I'll experiment with making gels from that stuff as well.
A quick look shows this for a start but I'm sure there are others
http://www.google.com/patents?id=CM0HAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
That patent was actually cited in the Clif patent. Obviously not a problem to examiners.
clubber - sorry for the confusion. I was meaning "who used this sort of packaging before Clif patented it?"
Obviously not a problem to examiners.
I doubt the "examiners" bothered reading the patent 🙄
I used my gel flask for Pesto when I was touring. Haven't found it since, and I don't remember cleaning it out either, shudder to think what the insides look like now...
Just looking at the Clif patent, from a brief look at the claims I think its a particularly clever bit of design, not sure why the hate?!
It is a clever bit of design..but..unlike others (Mercedes & ABS is one that springs to mind where a choice was made to benefit the greater good) it was decided that Clif would rather make money from their "litter leash" & not share its benefits freely with others..They arent the first to have behaved in this way & Im sure they wont be the last.
Not hate, more an eyebrow raised in a "HMMmm" style..
Thanks for all the responses so far. Clearly there is a lot of knowledge on the singletrack forum.
I've already had 107 people fill out the survey. Which is great, it is helping me identify the problems clearly.
There is a demand for a biodegradable packet, but it's not the most commercially viable option at the moment or though I'm sure it will be at some point.Also It may well have the opposite affect intended and actually encourage people to start throwing wrappers on the floor, which isn't a great mindset to have.If I find the magic material for the job I'll let you know.
The vast majority of people have said they do pocket empty wrappers either stuffing them in their socks,sleeves shorts and then taking them home to bin them.Whether that's just the write answer for the survey and they actually just launch them on the floor, I do not know. But the fact that is the majority response is a good thing.
The majority of people agree that putting sticky wrappers into pockets is a pain.So some sort of re-sealing to prevent any sticky mess would be appreciated it seems.
Plenty of people suggested the clif bar litter leash design or something along those lines as a good shout.It is a shame that clif patented it but like was mentioned, I think the patent only applies in the United State as international patents are rather expensive.But i'm probably going to avoid any legal battle with clif until after graduation at least.
The outline of the specification at the moment appears to be a durable packet providing the product longer shelf life so more shops don't worry about the gels going off. Durable also bodes well for re-use. The way the gel is dispensed, some sort of pressure/syringe ideas etc need to be applied as people agree getting the last drop out is a struggle. If the packet can be opened quicker and dispensed easier, with one hand hopefully we can go faster.
It's very much early days.Keep all your thoughts coming, they are much appreciated.If your able to get more people to do the survey as well that would be a great help.
Many Thanks
Adam
I think the patent only applies in the United State as international patents are [s]rather expensive[/s] more rigorously vetted
FTFY
I've been researching away over the last 3 weeks and have uncovered some more information on the subject. I'm currently uploading the resources on to a blog, to share the research with you.
I believe the collective intellegence of many is going to result in a far more resolved solution to the problem.The more people collaborating and sharing there ideas on this project the more likely we are to find a solution.With all the information provided already and a little more on the blog I hope you can join me and start coming up with ideas to solve the problems.The more ideas the better.This is my call to action, if anyone has got any ideas post them on here.I'll be posting any of my ideas up shortly.I also believe the users know best.
As [b]Howard Aiken[/b] once said-Don't worry about people stealing your idea if it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats.
In the survey people have admitted feeling guilty dropping there gels.Others don't by energy gels because of the litter issues associated with it and event organizers have asked for a biodegradable packets. I will share all the survey results with you soon. I can tell you 25% of people have admitted to littering.
So please comment on the blog posts, suggest and discuss ideas on here and feel free to get in touch, send me a message on here.
Cheers Adam
Top tip, do not try to rip the top off the sachetwith your teeth whilst cycling and grasping said sachet quite firmly and competing in your first triathlon! Half the gel went in my ear, the other half hit the guy I was overtaking straight between the eyes!
i can't remember which teams now, but I saw a photo that showed that a couple of pro-tour teams had additional pockets on their jerseys for litter this year. The pockets were further round the hips from the normal three and were there purely for stuffing used gel wrappers in. I thought that was a great idea.
2adpr - there is no link to your blog?