Hey Singletrack forum,
I was hoping to get a little bit of feedback from the wealth of knowledge that is the singletrack forum!
I'm an industrial design student from UWIC Cardiff and am starting my final year undergraduate project which is aiming to improve energy gel packaging usability and sustainability.
I'd love any feedback and have put together a quick questionnaire that I would be hugely appreciative if everyone could click and answer a quick 10 question survey.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RDC2MXC
Many Thanks!Feel free to pm me or message me if you have any advice.
Done.
Out of curiosity, what do you see as the main problems with existing designs?
I spoke to Matt Hart of Torq about biodegradable or recyclable packaging, and he said it wasn't possible to get a tough enough package for the right cost using such materials.
How about stitching them into users pockets on elastic so they dont end up littering the trails!!!
done
you have no email address in your profile?
[i]Out of curiosity, what do you see as the main problems with existing designs?[/i]
I don't think he/she signed up to answer any questions...
What I really need is a newsagents that sells jelly babies in paper bags, mmmmmm nutritious and eco friendly.
Done. Like to see what you come up with too 🙂
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.
It wont stop people dropping the packs, but would stop people littering the tops.
survey completed
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.It wont stop people dropping the packs, but would stop people littering the tops.
survey completed
Clif have already done it but since they are such a nice bunch of guys they patented the idea. So if you want to go down that route you have to pay them for the privilege of caring about littering. Sits well with their image of being all organic & fluffy doesnt it?
Clif have already done it
oh. I dont use theirs. Not likely to now either if that's patent thing is true.
What a bunch of *****
Survey done. Its quite good to see that other people despair at littering as much as I do. I shall never buy another Clif bar - C***s.
Yep its true - I heard it from a VERY reliable source in the energy food biz. Trust him 100%.
Done. Less waste please!
The patent system needs a good looking at, I think. I'm sure it was intended to encourage innovation and investment in research, not to function as an intellectual land grabbing mechanism.
Survey completed. Ideally, somehow, you'd be able to open and consume a gel with one hand (and yes, the top would remain attached to it to reduce littering) I find the SIS style thinner tubes are easier to use.
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask. Much quicker to use on the bike, no mess, and you can hold about 5 in one flask. Just requires a bit of forward planning before the ride/event to set them up.
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It'd be interesting to see the results of the survey, I'd imagine that from reading it it'll appear that no-one litters as I can't see many people answering the question to say that they just chuck the gel wrappers on the ground.
I reckon that what you need for gels is some kind of a syringe with the gel in it. You can get it out easily rather than squirting it out of the wrapper ad they'd be reusable as well 🙂
The answer is...bananas.
...biodegradable or recyclable packaging...
Piece of cake. Available off the shelf. Right now. But no one will pay the upcharge to get it into the market.
That makes sense if you are talking about kids choc bars, but energy products are expensive; an extra £10 per thousand on the packaging would make little difference. But it's much easier to say "we've looked at it, it isn't feasible"
Cobblers.
energy gels are revolting, how anyone eats more than one ever is beyond me.
I'm with you emsz. Hate the things. I just eat food instead.
make a wrapper out of banana skins, then you can be guilt free throwing it away into the nearest bush 🙂
You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them. They work for some folk who don't like drinking energy drink. I'd recommend the Torq ones cos they actually taste quite nice, like liquid sweeties.
make a wrapper out of banana skins, then you can be guilt free throwing it away into the nearest bush
...unless TJ finds out
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask
I had [have] one, OK when it's full but took too much time when it was less than half full to squeeze out a feed
as an inexpensive design adaptation to existing gel packs Id like to see the fused section and rip starter arranged so that you can tear the pack open to get to the gel, but the tear stops before the top is ripped off, so that it remains attached to the pack itself.
I reckon this already happens on 90% of the gels I use
I work in the packaging industry, particularly manufacturing the type of films used for gels, bars etc so fel free to start the flaming.
There is still not a real solution for packaging bars and gels in bio-degradable film as these products usually have a very long shelf life due to the relatively slow sales and usage pattern. Most consumers wouldn't be happy to see half the box of gels they bought at the start of the season turn into a gooey mess after 6 months. Also the nature of the product requires a good pack integrity hence heat sealing which makes them difficult to get into compared with chocolate or crips which use cold seal technology. Most bars are sold are relatively low in preservatives so again the film in which they are packed needs a good oxygen barrier and is usually a laminate of Polyester and Polyethylene to give the good seal, some have foil layers or metallised film but that is very expensive. Easy open tears and tags to retain the torn off portion is not new technology so I don't know where the comment regarding Cliff bars comes from, this is usually done by the filling machine and since most of these products are contract packed, it is down to investment by the packer.
I hope this sheds some light on a compplex issue, the only real solution is not to dispose of the wrappers irresponsibly, buying gels or bars in paper bags or corn starch based films is not practical given the other performance requirements of these packs.
[i]You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them.[/i]
eh? what d'you mean, are you shoving them up your bum
Interesting stuff pistonbroke, thanks.
Emsz - molly is 'straight-edge' energy gels are the closest he gets to getting high 🙂
Ref the clifbar comments, I'll bet that it's a US patent which like the horst link one only applies there. Their patent stuff tends to be silly as you can patent lots of things that just aren't new.
You don't eat energy gels, you 'take' them.eh? what d'you mean, are you shoving them up your bum
I think he means that generally you don't use energy gels as a replacement for a ham sandwich. Personally I only use them in races or in an emergency "I'm about to bonk/die" type scenario. Apart from anything else, they're too bloody expensive to be knocking them back on regular social & training rides. They are, however, a very efficient way of getting quick calories into your system in a situation like a race.
The only one I ever ate had caffeine in it and I swear all the colours on the leaves and trees just went a bit funny.
I was jumping around like a kid on too many sweeties. 😆
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask.
I thought it was just me still using those. Far, far cheaper than gels in sachets as well.
oh yes check the caffeine levels. Some gels have masses...Torq Guarana for example. You really don't want to be popping those too often during a ride.
I'm still amazed that more people don't simply use a gel flask.I thought it was just me still using those. Far, far cheaper than gels in sachets as well.
..although I do tend to just buy Torq gels and decant them into flasks, so no money saved for me 🙄
Ref the clifbar comments, I'll bet that it's a US patent which like the horst link one only applies there. Their patent stuff tends to be silly as you can patent lots of things that just aren't new.
+1000 - the US patent office appears not to bother with prior art searches (or even having a quick think about whether something is likely to be new), relying instead on letting the courts sort it out. Doubtless the Clifbar* patent (if it exists) would fail if tested properly in a court, but it would cost lots of money for anybody to do that.
*replace "Clifbar" with "Horst link" as desired.
Pedalhead, you can make gels. Just get some Torq energy powder in a receptacle, add a small amount of water and let it sit overnight - instant gel. That's all it is.
Re Torq caffeine gel - take one with you on a long ride, and when you get to the end and you're knackered, take it - boom!
..although I do tend to just buy Torq gels and decant them into flasks, so no money saved for me
Ah - I make mine up from drink powder as with the original Hi5 gel flasks (Torq drink powder nowadays, so unless you're using the guarana ones, exactly the same as what you have in yours) No need to let sit overnight - just add a bit of water to the powder in the flask, shake, and let sit for 5-10 minutes.
You sure? I understood that most of the gels were based on brown rice syrup whereas powders are maltodextrin
As such, I think that gels have more of a quick hit (simpler sugars) but aren't so good for really long events.
Doubtless the Clifbar* patent (if it exists) would fail if tested properly in a court
Why? Seems novel and inventive to me?
Why? Seems novel and inventive to me?
Very much doubt it hasn't been done before. Just like horst link
good tips, thanks chaps. I'll try the powder + water trick. The powder is generally a 2:1 Maltodextrin:Fructose mix, the former is taken on quickly, the latter a bit more slowly, so I'm guessing there's not much difference in effect to a "proper" gel.
Just looking at the Clif patent, from a brief look at the claims I think its a particularly clever bit of design, not sure why the hate?!
http://www.google.com/patents?id=-uMQAAAAEBAJ&dq=6702462
http://www.google.com/patents?id=CM0HAAAAEBAJ&dq=Patent+6,244,467
http://www.torqfitness.co.uk/nutrition/torq-gel
"TORQ energy (TORQ’s energy drink) is formulated using the same 2:1 technology"
Of course the other advantage of mixing powder if you do long events as I (used to) do - you don't have to carry the water around. I used to carry powder on the first day of Polaris / MMs and mix up new gels at the start of the second day.
Just looking at the Clif patent, from a brief look at the claims I think its a particularly clever bit of design, not sure why the hate?!
Because it's a clever bit of design which somebody else had already done.
