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I'm not pleased i was planning to take my teaching talent to go and help the northern scum. Now i may have to emmigrate to Scotchland and then i'll have to keep my views on their rugby team under wraps!!
So how many of us work for minimum wage or just above,teachers don't thats for sure.
I work in social care,have lots of responsibility only get a fraction of social services,social workers pay.
Still have to run a house and support a family and try to run a car with petrol topping £6.50 gallon and no bus service to speak of ,so car is only option in practical terms as odd shifts and wkends,buses don't exist on sundays or after 7.00pm if you live out of town.
Well get a different job then! Isnt that how we roll in this country?
Surely the correct right wing mantra would be that if some people are better off because living costs are lower, then people should move to those areas, thus levelling things out? Rather than whining about unfairness and expecting the government to sort it out
possibly true but there are limited jobs with national wages in these area which are much sort after as the wages are above the local level.
Sorry to hear that a-a.
Seems a shame that a policy supposed to promote a "more responsive workforce" has the opposite effect and fixes you where you are, rather than allowing you to move where needed.
But, as I said above, It shouldn't be long term.
And good luck today, should be a great day's rugby to top a really good tournament.
This is probablly the best thing to happen for the Labour party for a long time
I'd agree with you if Labour had a half competent leader. Ed Miliband should be slaughtering Osbourne on the tory ideals being introduced.....except he's not 🙁
Its certainly better for them than their last leadership contest. 😉
I used to work for the Environment Agency.. they had equal pay across england and wales..
they ended up with lots of people in cheaper parts of the country and struggled to recruit in the Southeast...
over time they have move more and more none location specific jobs to cheaper areas of the country.
Mikey, yes but swallowing a pay cut of any significance and the knock on effect on pensions would be hard. I would imagine i'd wait till retirement and the do it.
But if your mortage is lower and you stay in the same area it will not be a problem but yes pensions would be lower on retirement 🙁
As for local or even school based pay scales... Isnt that just going to cause wage inflation as everyone will want the best?
What is more likely is that well run and funded schools/LEAs that can and do pay top dollar will attact the top staff and the ones that cant wont. With the budgets as they are there wont be much cash to splash
It is a good policy if you want to create infighting in the unions. The govt has already tried to buy off older members of the Teachers Pension Scheme, and older members make up 30% of the unions fighting the changes.
But if i can do ok living here and pay a bigger mortgage i would be better off when i retire up north, cash in equity get somwhere cheaper and all with a bigger pension too!
Unless values crash in the South East property bubble and you end up in negative equity, unable to afford anything up north - whereas otherwise you'd have paid off your smaller mortgage up north 😉
But thats an unknown and the houseprice variation will not be reduced by this policy. I have 30 years to go anyway.
So you work down south, get paid more, accrue more capital wealth from investing in property, you get a bigger pension and when you retire you sell your house and have more in the bank.
Quality tory thinking. Its shit like this that really will push some regions over the edge, and not just Scotland.
I would love there to be a refurendum in the Norther counties to see if they want to stay in England or Join Scotland when we go independant.
over time they have move more and more none location specific jobs to cheaper areas of the country.
slightly off topic, why should all jobs be focused on the southeast anyway. Does it not make sense to move as much as possible outside the london bubble.
Do we really need most civil servants in london? as for regional pay? such is life for most people anyway.
I consider myself to be right of center, expect people to work for a living, am not a fan of the public sector, don't have a lot of time for the current arguments over public sector pensions etc. I think a lot of the public sector unions need to grip - right that's my credentials out of the way.
This current proposal is bonkers! We need to encourage people away from the honey pot areas and I do think someone doing a job, be it teacher or bin man across the country should be paid the same (apply a weighting on top for certain areas, but keep it visible) for the same work (or as commented above more stressful work in the more deprived areas of the country).
Up until now I've put the divide and conquer left wing rantings into the same category as the Diana and JFK conspiracies, I don't think I can do that anymore.
Whilst we're on mental policies, abolish the 50% tax rate!!!!!
Not withstanding the recent threads around whether people paying 40% tax are wealthy or not I think we can probably agree the people currently paying the 50% rate are not looking down the sofa for spare change. In fact these are the same people who are directors in middling size firms who have been awarding themselves payrises for poor performance whilst holding down the pay of their workforces. Couple with the fact these are not the people who'll jump ship to the nearest tax haven either.
I didn't vote for call me Dave, I'm glad I didn't, but I didn't think he would be this stupid and selfish and out of touch.
I just wish there was a right of centre party out there that wasn't the Tories, one that actually had principles (not that everybody would agree with them and that would be a good thing).
I just wish there was a right of centre party out there that wasn't the Tories
Wasn't that NuLab? Not quite sure where postmodern labour position themselves, they seem to have difficulty stringing a coherent sentence together, unfortunately.
What would it take to bring us to a early general election? I would put a lot of effort into ousting this government sooner rather than later, if I knew how...
Does anyone know if the mp,s are going to getter lower wages in the north and scotlandshire, to match the wages of the northerners that actually have a job in the private sector.
Me thinks not.
I forgot just how close I am on the political compass thingy to Sinn Fein. 😯
Who's for an independent Devon then? 😆
I'd agree with you if Labour had a half competent leader. Ed Miliband should be slaughtering Osbourne on the tory ideals being introduced.....except he's not
It is a fact that the "floating voters", that rather small percentage of the electorate which are extremely important, and who's opinions are the only ones that actually matter when it comes to winning elections, prefer a Labour Party which has very simular policies to the Tory Party, otherwise they will simply vote Tory.
So Ed Miliband complies with the very easy and lazy solution of placating the hopelessly irrational floating voters who lack any understanding or commitment (I have considerably more respect for traditional Conservative voters than ill-informed half-wits who think choosing a political party to vote for is like shopping for a pair of shoes).
The alternative to this easy and lazy solution is to provide an inspirational leadership built on sound democratic structures which builds up the base support to such a level that the whims of floating voters become considerably less important.
This however requires a lot of extremely hard work over a considerable period of time and is fraught with difficulties, including the fact that large democratic parties are hard to control and maintain discipline over, and a hostile press has to be bypassed.
So Ed Miliband aware that he probably won't be around for very long will opt for the easy and lazy solution of allowing the media/press to set the agenda whilst he concentrates on convincing all those who voted Tory last time that he is in fact no different to them - just a lot nicer.
If anyone is unhappy with the state of British politics (the one party Tory/LibDem/NewLabour state) then I would suggest that you blame first and foremost the British electorate. And then secondly, blame the Labour Party for no longer having the courage and commitment to fight for the principles which it was founded to fight. And blame Tony Blair too.
I'd love to see how they'll work this out and implement it. It is open season on the public sector, just because they can. It'll mean the lowering of standards within organisations as talented staff won't be attracted to the lower paid areas of the country. No mention of how they can apply this to those of us who have national roles. I'm getting rather sick and tired of the public sector bashing from the all the green-eyed private sector workers, well guess what, it's not a special club in the public sector, anyone with the right qualifications and skills can apply. Once again it should be raising standards nationally not lowering certain groups' pay to meet the lowest common denominator.
It is a fact that the "floating voters", that rather small percentage of the electorate which are extremely important, and who's opinions are the only ones that actually matter when it comes to winning elections, prefer a Labour Party which has very simular policies to the Tory Party, otherwise they will simply vote Tory.
So, what you're saying is that in a democratic country, the tory parties policies are fundamentally more palatable to the majority of the public than those of the left wing.
Democracy eh? How much better life would be in the socialist republic of Ernie-land 🙄
So, what you're saying is ........
It's pretty clear what I'm saying. I like to write in easy-to-understand English.
that England is a right-wing country.Zulu-Eleven - Member
So, what you're saying is
Is anyone surprised?
Its a reasonable proposal, as long as it is across the board and covers 'all' the public sector, from Teachers to Nurses to MP's. But like most things, the hardest bit will be the transition, and of course TJ having his salary reduced 🙂
In a way benefits are already covered as Housing Benefit is regionalised, ie based upon rent.
So, what you're saying is that in a democratic country, the tory parties policies are fundamentally more palatable to the majority of the public than those of the left wing.
When it comes to taxation, yes. When it comes to trashing the likes of NHS and other services, no.
People like a bit of socialism when it comes to paying for something collectively, knowing that they could not afford to have it individually.
Well, like I say DruidH - thats one of the constraints you get from being a lefty living in a democratic country - every few years you get to see your dreams crushed as the majority of the public remind you that your policies are bollocks 😆
Zulu-Eleven - Member
the majority of the public remind you that your policies are [s]bollocks[/s] not wanted
every few years you get to see your dreams crushed as the majority of the public remind you that your policies are bollocks
Much lollage.
Zulu-Eleven - Member
the majority of the public [b]in the south of England [/b]remind you that your policies are [s]bollocks[/s] not wanted
so more money to the rich and the richest areas, less money to the poorer.
Terh south east already sucks huge sums out of the economy - and they want more?
Its hardly a surprise but it is vindictive nasty and unfair - there is already London weighting which is unfair in itself
This should go hand in hand with regional levels of income tax and NI too. If the pay of the public sector workers are lower in certain areas then so should costs and this should be reflected in the tax etc that those areas pay. Bet that won't be altered by Gideon though...
Have you suddenly become a convert to democracy Zulu-Eleven ?
Not long ago you were describing it as a "silly little experiment" which you wanted to get "rid of"
Zulu-Eleven - MemberDark ages, No Ernie, not at all - far more of a fan of a military coup returning HRH to power and getting rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy"
Posted 2 years ago
Zulu-Eleven - MemberI said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees.
Posted 4 months ago
Have you suddenly become a convert to democracy Zulu-Eleven ?
Now I understand him giving advice out to Druid about feeling crushed. You would feel the same way too if the majority still wanted democracy and thought your little coup d'etat idea was bollocks.
druidh,
what's the source for that graphic above please?
I'm very interested to know what they based that on, and how recent it is.
It points to some pretty strange positions, such as Labour being between The conservatives to their right and the Lib Dems to their left. Its almost as if they'd form an easier coalition with either of those parties than the present situation.
Does this mean our democracy is a farce?
Or is the pursuit of power more important than political differences?
loum - that was generated for the 2010 General Election. As to how "accurate" it is, that's anyones guess!
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
This is an interesting graphic too..
[img] 
[/img]
Zulu-Eleven - Member
I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees.Posted 4 months ago
Thats really interesting Ernie - the fact that you chose to crop the context of my comment, but leave the header and "posted 4 months ago" footer in to give the impression that that was what I said, without the context. A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.
Tell me Ernie - why did you choose to go so far as to keep the header and footer in, but remove the orhte relevant context?
Do you believe in democracy, or universal suffrage?Do we have democracy in the UK? Since you're defending it, I would imagine you think so... but proletarian democracy is not just representative democracy, but participatory democracy
I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees. Parliamentary democracy was never supported by Lenin, Marx or Engels.
You should be all for my argument Ernie - your failure to realise that parliamentary democracy is a continuation of the class division that prevents a democracy of the proletariat shows that, despite a lifetime of espousing the ideals and goals of the left, you've never come to truly understand what you're asking for!
Interesting that you should choose to misrepresent the context TJ... that my comment was about "this failed experiment" in "democracy" not out of a lack of support for democracy, but a lack of support for the pseudo democratic representative parliamentary system that we had in this country. Very different construction of the argument in a very different context.
Does this mean our democracy is a farce?
It means that the political compass graph is a farce.
Do the test yourself, you might be surprised with the result :
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Ernie I often don't agree with your views but that post up there is rather insightful and rather gets to the nub of the probolems in British politics.
I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s. Those of us that earn and contribute would rather hold onto more of our earnings, even when that means poorer services, which we're happy to accept as long as it's not the services that directly affect us.
I think what we're looking for is a right wing party that isn't as obviously elitist (and I mean that in a nepotistic sort of way, nothing wrong in genuine aspirations)as the Tories but instead is seen to be fair, to take unpopular decisions when they are the right thing to do, reward and promote people contributing to society and being a little disapproving of those that choose not to take some responsibility for themselves. But as you've said the people holding the real power are the floating voters, many of whom are floating because they don't really think too hard about the bigger issues.
Shame the Lib Dems fluffed up changing the voting system and set back proportional representation ten years.
A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.
😀 I didn't manipulate any comment of yours - I copied and pasted what you wrote !
Yes you're right, I didn't copy and paste the whole post - why would I do that ? I just copied and pasted the bit which was relevant.
And yeah, I left out the bit where you lectured [b][i]me[/i][/b] on what [b][i]I[/i][/b] should believe ..... are you surprised ?
So anyway, what does all this other stuff prove ? It's very clear that up until today you had a very contemptuous attitude towards British democracy, but now this evening you're singing its praises. Hypocrite.
Ah, its my attitude to democracy thats contemptuous is it?
But you're the one that says the Falklands should be handed back to the Argentines against the will of the islanders, and that Gay marriage should be legalised despite the majority of the public being against it 😉
Anyway - about the ending of National Pay Rates.....
Seeing as the bankers screwed the country, and now are owned by the state,perhaps we should reduce their pay to that of the lowest street cleaners.
I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s.
I actually disagree, I think most people are a bit more left-wing than they imagine. That 'political compass questionnaire' certainly suggests that, although I have little faith in its overall conclusion.
In my experience people tend to tow the line which is offered to them by the press, it's the easiest thing to do - specially if you find politics fairly boring. But when people are engaged in argument and listen to opposing opinions, my experience suggests that they tend to be both more liberal and rather more left-wing than their starting position.
The problem occurs because they generally tend to hear only one side of the argument, and they lack the motivation to actively seek other opinions. And the problem isn't helped by lazy Labour politicians who lack the courage to make a stand.
The only thing which is likely to change the Labour Party's position is if they start seeing their support hemorrhaging to left parties such as the Greens. You'd be surprised how quickly self-serving career politicians in the Labour Party are prepared to change their position when required.