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It is a fascinating thread. I’m not a lease kind of person. But I’d assumed it would make things easier if the vehicle went wrong
Same.
You’re leasing a car, not subscribing to a service with availability terms
If I go to Enterprise and hire a minibus to move a number of people about and it breaks down it's not much good to me if they offer a FIAT 500 as a replacement is it?
As you say, you're leasing a car, not the potential of a car.
Not wanting to come over as sexist but are you sure that the car is not functional and the issues are not related to how to operate the vehicle? My main vehicle is an 07 plate S-Max and on the rare occasions I drive a modern car – normally hired for a work job – I often have to spend quite a while getting my head around how everything works. This is probably not the case but I am struggling with the concept of the car being returned in a non-operational state as surely there must be tests to be ticked off as part of the repair process.
Given it's been in a garage for a few weeks not I'd rule out user error.
Taycan is 295% more expensive than the XC60,
We don't know what Volvo it is, if its one of these I wouldn't be too upset...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/volvo/volvo-v90-t8-twin-engine-2017-review/
If I go to Enterprise and hire a minibus to move a number of people about and it breaks down it’s not much good to me if they offer a FIAT 500 as a replacement is it?
Yeah because it won't do the same job. The Volvo will do the same job as the Porsche.
You missed my next sentence though:
As you say, you’re leasing a car, not the potential of a car.
If I pay the extra for a Porsche I'm not paying it to potentially lease a Porsche.
I've had company cars for almost 20 years.
There are several issues here:
It's the Lease company's responsibility to get the car fixed, but as the diver, you have a role to play too: dropping-off, picking up, and (to a reasonable degree) coordinating the repairs. What I mean is: the driver is involved in the process. Which is where I'd like to politely suggest this might have fallen down.
I think the critical thing to understand is why Porsche (south) returned the car to your sister, unfixed. That seems to be the main issue.
I would be speaking to them first and find out what the actual issue with the car is, and why they sent it back to your sister. Based on that, I would then be asking your sister why she has had the car shipped from "south" to Sheffield. Do Sheffield Porsche have a plan/idea of how to fix it? If so, what is it?
Then, once you know that, I would be talking to the Lease company, and trying to explain what's happening with the car, and what the plan is to fix it. Hopefully part of that conversation is whether it's reasonable that your sister is paying Porsche money, but getting a volvo for an extended period - if it is indeed going to be off the road for an extended period.
The issue is that the lease company will have ordered the Taycan especially, they don't just have high value cars like that laying about to give people as loaners. Maybe they do have something a bit nicer than the volvo that they could give to your sister, or (once Porsche get the car back) they could ask Porsche to provide a loaner that's a bit more s****y.
Either way - ignore all the "contracts" chat - just get on the phone to people and start having some polite, human conversations. Once people understand that you are trying to resolve the problem, they'll start playing along.
My guess is that Porsche (south) told your sister that it needs a new part, and that they don't know how long it's going to take. I suspect that your sister either demanded, or just agreed, to take the car back.... which is the point that this went off the rails. Really you just want the lease company and Porsche to be talking to each other re the repairs, and coming to an agreement re: temporary car provision
I have no real value to add here. However I do have to ask… She didn’t lease it from Lings did she?
Thinks for the input batfink. The story as I understand it from my sister is:
Car driven to London, parked up and plugged in overnight but no charge in the morning. Called the lease company who called Porsche who called the AA who bricked the car. Car was lifted onto a truck and taken to Porsche down south who said it was a common issue and they expected it to be fixed within 3-5 days. There was then almost no contact from them over the next 4 weeks or so, and when chased up by my sister they moaned about having to fix a car they didn't sell. Again a period of no contact and when my sister called once more to get an update she was told the car was being delivered back to her that day. The car arrived on Saturday lunchtime, still completely dead. She can't even switch it on. On top of this the tracker app she has reports the car as stolen, which has been confirmed by the tracking company. They tried to remotely reset the car's security system but they cannot communicate with it. At this point my sister called Porsche Sheffield, because that's where she lives, that's where the car is now located, and because she has lost all faith in Porsche down south. Porsche Sheffield have suggested that Porsche down south haven't fixed any part of the car and are now in the process of figuring out why it has been returned to my sister.
I'm awaiting the lease contract being sent over by my sis today to see exactly who should be deealing with what.
Again I think some people are missing the point somewhat. It's not that she's currently driving about in a XC60. It's that she (or her company) is paying in excess of £1300/month for the privilege, when a straight up lease for a XC60 is more in the region of £450/month, and the lease company are telling her to suck it up. She thinks that's unfair, as do I, and I'm trying to help her sort it.
It baffles me that they think they can still charge Porsche money when supplying your sister with a Volvo.
Her contract is to have a Taycan to drive around in, the lease company are not keeping up their end of the bargain.
Her contract is to have a Taycan to drive around in
Is it?
If I pay the extra for a Porsche I’m not paying it to potentially lease a Porsche.
She still has a Porsche which she's paying for. Is there a ause in the contract that specifies she'll get a replacement of equivalent value in the event it needs fixing? Doubt it.
Yeah because it won’t do the same job. The Volvo will do the same job as the Porsche.
Are you telling me you'd be fine with paying £1500/month for a Porsche and being given a Volvo XC60 (£700/month) for an indeterminate period of time instead (but already more than 1 month)? I call BS if you say yes. For sure if this was just for a couple of weeks then having the Volvo whilst it's fixed would be reasonable but it's been in for repair for 5 weeks and still no sign of it actually being repaired. I'd certainly be expecting Porsche to be covering at least the difference in lease costs, or providing a Taycan S courtesy car in the meantime.
As for what the OP's sister can do, no idea - although I'd be posting on Porsche UK and the leasing company's Twitter feed by now and sending emails.
I have leased cars for years the dealer never has to give you a like for like car, years ago we used to get better cars but now generally similar if you're lucky. My company will now only pay a certain amount for hire car when previously the policy was just get back on the road at any cost, buy my own cars now.
Anytime I had a company lease car that needed servicing/repairs I got whatever courtesy car they had to hand. I’m guessing some contracts may differ and will provide like for like replacements.
I’ve also heard recent tales of new Porsche EV’s suffering issues with the heater matrix meaning that lots of people drove through this winter with no heating as the chips needed to remedy/fix are unavailable.
First world problems, eh?
She still has a Porsche which she’s paying for.
Even the most decorated of big hitters here would surely have to admit that paying for a Porsche that works is an entirely different proposition to paying for a Porsche that doesn't. She hasn't leased a Porsche-shaped object to sit on the drive and impress the neighbours.
Not wanting to add to her 'woes' but she'll also need her BIK 'updated' as I'm guessing the Volvo isn't an EV and it'll be higher.
Still struggling to understand this bit:
Car was lifted onto a truck and taken to Porsche down south who said it was a common issue and they expected it to be fixed within 3-5 days. There was then almost no contact from them over the next 4 weeks or so, and when chased up by my sister they moaned about having to fix a car they didn’t sell.
Almost no contact for 4 weeks - didn't your Sister (or someone who works for her company) hassle them daily?
Not sure about daily, but yes she tried. That was when she got the moany person complaining about fixing a car that the Porsche down south didn't personally sell.
Not sure the BIK is an issue. Her company car is still the Porche. It just happens be in for repair just now.
As I posted earlier I suspect you’ll get a lot more support/knowledge about how to get a better outcome with the lease company over on piston heads, though to be fair they have there fair share of fud’s too.
Her contract is to have a Taycan to drive around in
Is it?
Neither you nor the person you are replying to have read the fqcking contract!!! It is pointless bickering over what it says.
That was when she got the moany person complaining about fixing a car that the Porsche down south didn’t personally sell.
This doesn't make sense as the dealer will be paid by Porsche for the warranty repair - it doesn't matter who sold the car.
The car arrived on Saturday lunchtime, still completely dead. She can’t even switch it on. On top of this the tracker app she has reports the car as stolen, which has been confirmed by the tracking company.
Well it would have been driven onto the delivery vehicle (unless it was lifted on but doubtful) so presumably it was working when it left the southern dealer. Could the fact that it's now 'stolen', for some reason, result in it being immobilised and the reason why she can't get it to do anything?
I've got a Tusker lease car, the documents and FAQs are very clear with what happens in a case like this for me on my scheme. If you check your sisters lease documents should be similarly clear it's a common occurence.
T&Cs for me are
1) I am still liable to pay for the lease if the vehicle is broken or in for repair. It's very clearly stated early in the contract in big bold letters. They're leasing me a car not providing a rental service
2) It needs to go the dealer or whoever the lease company deem needs to repair
3) The lease company will provide me a relief car if mine is off the road for >24hours. They are very clear that they have no responsibility to provoide something comparable in value, perforamance etc. I do seem to remeber when I took out the lease there was opportunity to upgrade this but I didn't bother. The dealer could also offer a courtesy car which might be better but again it's a lucky dip.
Not sure the BIK is an issue. Her company car is still the Porche. It just happens be in for repair just now.
It is, you're wrong.
TheFlyingOx
Full Member
Not sure about daily, but yes she tried. That was when she got the moany person complaining about fixing a car that the Porsche down south didn’t personally sell.
This doesn’t make sense as the dealer will be paid by Porsche for the warranty repair – it doesn’t matter who sold the car.
Agreed, I wouldn't expect that sort of response from any main dealer, never mind one like Porsche. It would also be the time to run out of patience with them, escalate a complaint within the dealership and then call Porsche customer services to tell them what their dealer is up to.
Email/Call to Porsche customer service asking why the dealer has failed to fix the car and the poor customer service. Request that they uplift the car to a suitably qualified dealer to fix the issue, which needs to be expedited due to the previous poor customer service.
Play nicely and the warranty/customer service people are more receptive, Porsche will look pretty dimly on dealers not doing their job and will be dealt with. Entering a Twitter shit slinging match is the last resort.
There was then almost no contact from them over the next 4 weeks or so, and when chased up by my sister they moaned about having to fix a car they didn’t sell.
They will be paid via the Porsche warranty system, if they are good, they make money, if they are shit (which sounds like they are) they lose money.
I have diamond cut wheels that were refinishing by the dealer (not actually done by them but by their chosen company) but showed moisture under the clear coat after about 14 months. The word from the dealer/company was that diamond cut wheels are not as resilient to damage and not really for every day cars.
I wasn't best pleased with this answer so spoke to Porsche customer services who were not best pleased about the response I had received - the wheels were refinished again FOC.
They will be paid via the Porsche warranty system, if they are good, they make money, if they are shit (which sounds like they are) they lose money.
Indeed.... not all Porsche dealers are equal!
Just like to commend everyone for being so kind on what is without question the most FWP thread I've ever seen on here 😃
She would probably prefer a working car, agreed, but no-one is choosing a Porsche EV as their company car instead of something normal and boring like, say, an Audi, without the sole intention of impressing the neighbours 😂She hasn’t leased a Porsche-shaped object to sit on the drive and impress the neighbours.
Neither you nor the person you are replying to have read the fqcking contract!!! It is pointless bickering over what it says.
I know, that was my first post. I'm just predicting what it'll say.
However I fully agree Porsche have been shit here.
This doesn’t make sense as the dealer will be paid by Porsche for the warranty repair – it doesn’t matter who sold the car.
There's a fair bit of tribalism in the industry, and if you have a high workload for warranty etc, dealer/workshops try to keep existing customers sweet instead of someone who is never going to visit, or spend money, again.
Though manufacturers/importers take a very dim view of it.
intheborders
Free MemberNot sure the BIK is an issue. Her company car is still the Porche. It just happens be in for repair just now.
It is, you’re wrong.
Looks like the BIK isn't affected for repairs under 30 days.
The definition of unavailable (see EIM25105) means that if a car is not available for a period of less than 30 days, the employee is charged as though it were still available. If during that period the employee is provided with a replacement car, for example when the normal car is being repaired, the employee is still charged for the full year on the normal car without time apportionment. There could also be a separate charge on the employee for the replacement car.
Section 145 ITEPA 2003 removes the charge on a replacement car in most circumstances where the normal car is not available for less than 30 consecutive days.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim25125
There’s a fair bit of tribalism in the industry, and if you have a high workload for warranty etc, dealer/workshops try to keep existing customers sweet instead of someone who is never going to visit, or spend money, again.
Absolutely - and I think that warranty work is at a set rate and is not a profitable as normal servicing work. But they should still not grumble.
but no-one is choosing a Porsche EV as their company car instead of something normal and boring like, say, an Audi, without the sole intention of impressing the neighbours 😂
True story that. If they were buying for the driving experience they would have got a proper model 😉😂
She still has a Porsche which she’s paying for.
She has their broken Porsche. Difference.
I could understand this argument if we were talking about PCP but we're not. It's a lease.
As I said, I've never done this before but from the outside looking in it seems absolutely mental that in the event that the product you're hiring doesn't work you get a lesser product in substitution and still pay the premium rate. That some people are happy with this arrangement is even more mind boggling.
She's not hiring it, she's leasing it. There's a difference.
If you buy a car, it breaks and it goes back to the garage for warranty repair, you should get a courtesy car. There's no guarantee that it's going to be the same car or the same level of car - how could there be? This is like that. But it should be laid out in the T&Cs.
Note I'm not saying this is great, I'm saying this is probably what it is.
'I’m surprised that an established company with the heritage of Porsche would have such problems with an EV.
No way would your ‘sister’ be better off with a higher performance car from an American upstart motor company.'
I'll trade actually having cars and spare parts for having an 'established heritage' :-).
I really fancied a Taycan, now not so much ! 🤷♂️
Well Hyundai took 6 weeks to fix my EV - needed an ABS module which I'd have thought was a fairly basic part. Not a complex fix, just wasn't avaiable.
I had a company Alfa 147 Selespeed that was in and out of the dealers. Various stability programme issues, sub woofer not plugged in, various electrical issues. Took six months to get a replacement steering wheel after the coating on the flappy paddles came off.
It was upto us to sort any maintenance/warranty work out with a dealer. I regularly took the car to a dealer's near work rather than the one near home that supplied the car, so doesn't matter what 'dealer' it goes to. The leasing company are just financing the vehicle.
I seem to remember someone here having an issue with leasing cars from Ling
Geordie Mick enters the chat....
Let's not open that one up again.
FWIW, I have a Volvo lease car and I leased it from Volvo, had it 12 months and it's a belter of a car.
As I said, I’ve never done this before but from the outside looking in it seems absolutely mental that in the event that the product you’re hiring doesn’t work you get a lesser product in substitution and still pay the premium rate. That some people are happy with this arrangement is even more mind boggling.
I bet the Taycan is not much more expensive to have on a business lease after BIK than a Volvo.
Still dont think we are getting the full story.
She’s a highly strung individual
My sister has called Porsche Sheffield based on the garbage customer service she got from Porsche down south in the hope that the Sheffield dealership are better. That’s the entire story as far as I’ve been told.
So both Porsche dealerships have issues.... is there a common thread ?
I’m not 100% how this stuff works
Can I suggest your sister delegates to someone who does?
I bet the Taycan is not much more expensive to have on a business lease after BIK than a Volvo.
I costed one on Tusker a few months back, for a high rate tax payer it is around £1200 net salary cost monthly, vs an i4 at £700. I wasn’t interested in Volvo but a Polestar 2 was about the same as the BMW.
As I said, I’ve never done this before but from the outside looking in it seems absolutely mental that in the event that the product you’re hiring doesn’t work you get a lesser product in substitution and still pay the premium rate. That some people are happy with this arrangement is even more mind boggling.
So I now have the contract. There is nothing in there about the car being unavailable due to fault other than this gem:
"If the vehicle is not available to you because it is being repaired following breakdown or accident, we will provide a relief vehicle for a period not exceeding 21 days in the Term. If you keep any relief vehicle for longer than the 21 day maximum period, you will then pay for it under and compy with the Daily Rental Terms set out in part 2 of the Schedule to this Agreement."
So not only does she have to keep up the monthly lease payment on the broken Porsche, she now has to pay for the Volvo as well. Think she's on day 29 now.
Anyway, AA came out to the car today and fiddled with the battery. Now in some kind of restricted drive mode so he's taken it away to Porsche Sheffield.
I bet the Taycan is not much more expensive to have on a business lease after BIK than a Volvo.
Still dont think we are getting the full story.
I mentioned earlier in the thread, Taycan is ~£1300/month, XC60 is ~£450. That's on a 15000 mile/year business lease - which she has - and is the opposite of what I'd call "not much more expensive".
And why don't you think you're getting the full story? What do you think is missing? And why do you think I'd leave whatever that is out? I'm genuinely baffled at what angle you think I'm taking.
So not only does she have to keep up the monthly lease payment on the broken Porsche, she now has to pay for the Volvo as well.
Why aren't Porsche providing a car? Hyundai did for me. If you owned it and it went in for warranty work you'd expect one, wouldn't you?
And why don’t you think you’re getting the full story? What do you think is missing? And why do you think I’d leave whatever that is out? I’m genuinely baffled at what angle you think I’m taking.
If you don't mind me saying - it does seem like you don't have all the (basic) information here - I'm not suspicious about that, but I think perhaps other people are.
Why couldn't it be fixed in the first place? What was the story from the original garage?
Why aren’t Porsche providing a car?
Presumably lack of any consequential loss provision/responsibility to do so in any applicable contract.
This, I think, is where car tech is going to become an increasing issue for consumers. While fixes are no doubt possible the ability to diagnose (at dealer level) quickly and reliably and the availability and accessibility of components to fix seems to be leaving a number of vehicles that are not drivable for days or weeks.
I'm sure its a small proportion of the total population and maybe reliability will catch up at some point but it's little comfort if you've got a £(1)20k paperweight on the drive.
I do appreciate we have some ongoing Covid legacy here and a developing industry.