I vaguely remember reading that the Leaf used to do something like this, but then stopped because somebody in authority followed the logic of "you're recommending this -> most people will do this -> for most people the range is reduced -> stop advertising the full range".
You can set a charge limit on a tesla, though, so it could all be nonsense...
"However owners of early Nissan Leafs with larger cell air cooled batteries have experienced 50% drop in capacity"
Really? I'd love to see concrete examples of this. The gen 1 leaf (2010-2012) had some issues in very hot climates like california but even then was only dropping down to 70% in a very few isolated cases. The Gen 2 (90% of what you see on UK roads) has proved to be very robust with most owners seeing very little degredation. i.e my example is now 3.5 years old and is at 96% Bearing in mind most degretation happens early on and thet the batteries can be at 98% when the car is new I think thats pretty good.
Wrt old batteries, Renault are going to recycle them into home PowerWall style battery packs
Renault claims that the added usage on top of the batteries’ life inside an electric vehicle can more than double their entire life cycle; after eight to ten years of use in EVs, the batteries can be used for around a further ten years in a Powervault.
I vaguely remember reading that the Leaf used to do something like this, but then stopped because somebody in authority followed the logic of “you’re recommending this -> most people will do this -> for most people the range is reduced -> stop advertising the full range”.
You can set a charge limit on a tesla, though, so it could all be nonsense…
No, not nonsense, there are all sorts of rules about the range cycles., and what you can and can't do. Leaf probably skirted too close to the limit and got wrists slapped.
Give it 10 years and we'll have an electric version of the diesel NOx emissions scare for the press to froth at the mouth about. (And someone will doubtless have done a VW)
It would make a change from all the articles saying "I tried to drive as far as the NEDC rating said I could and ended up stuck on the side of the road, EVs are rubbish!"...
Electric is a temporary stop gap, and helps car manufacturers sell cars.
You can now buy wireless charging cars, cars that will feed electricity back in to the grid are being trialled.
However a better long term solution is needed
"Electric is a temporary stop gap, and helps car manufacturers sell cars."
No, manufacturers hate it - thats why its been delayed for so long. Only now that an evironmental awareness tipping point has been reached are they reluctantly embracing EV tech as they know if they don't they will ultimately be overtaken by disruptors like Tesla
"You can now buy wireless charging cars"
You can't yet but I'm sure it won't be long before wireless charging pads can be installed in driveways and carparks. This will be great for destination charging but unlikely to be powerful enough for rapid charging. A road that charges as you drive would be great but probably prohibitively expensive.
However a better long term solution is needed
I suspect the long term solution will be an urban ban on privately owned cars with autonomous EV driving only within the city limits and possibly on motorways in the long long term (say 20-30 years)
"You can’t yet but I’m sure it won’t be long before wireless charging pads can be installed in driveways and carparks. This will be great for destination charging but unlikely to be powerful enough for rapid charging. A road that charges as you drive would be great but probably prohibitively expensive. "
You can, I was looking at a BMW 530e yesterday that does it. You can order one today.
You can't order one with the wireless charger yet. They have hit some problems and are saying Q3 2018 at the earliest. But yes, they are close. Its a bit of a gimmick at the moment TBH
It's amazing how many people say "i'd never have an EV because the batteries wear out" and yet, they drive a car that also wears out, every time they go out in it. Your ICE car is designed to last 150kmiles / 10 years. This is why, a ten year old second hand car is worth buttons, because at any moment, large nunbers of complex,extremely expensive, mechanical parts can give up and effectively write the car off immediately. For example, your car got a:
1) DMF
2) DPF
3) Turbocharger
4) high pressure fuel pump
5) Catalytic convertor
6) Multispeed gearbox
7) exhaust and EGR system
8) High pressure fuel injectors
9) Variable geometry intake manifold
10) Friction clutch or lockup torque convertor
Any and all of those ^^^ items (none of which are fitted to an EV) mean that your ICE has a finite life. And in most cases, when you buy a s/h car there is no robust way of telling how worn they might be. Compare that to the solid state battery, which is self diagnostic, and tells you quite clearly exactly how worn out it is.
Next time you start your car, especially if it's a cold start, just listen out for all those moving bits rubbing together and wearing out!
IMO, EVs will hold their value better than ICE's even when out of warranty
"Compare that to the solid state battery, which is self diagnostic, and tells you quite clearly exactly how worn out it is."
Exactly! How many ICE owners can say that their car engine is in 96% condition when its 3.5 years old by simply switching on their phone!
Quite true maxtorque.
Now imagine an EV with a composite carbon fibre body - it's basically going to last indefinitely as long as you keep it in shocks and bearings. So even with new batteries every decade it might end up being pretty cheap.
Something to think about.
Well put MaxTorque.
Having just got a bit of a bonus from all the work overtime I've done on a recent project I've spent a not inconsiderable chunk unleashing the parts cannon on my old C-max! God bless ECP and their unknown** brand parts*.
*and EBC GreenStuff pads, because, you know, an underpowered 1.6NA people carrier needs these high performance little treats to make it's owner feel better about it's boring existence.
**anyone heard of RTX alternators, will my car be engulfed in a cloud of burning rubber auxilary belt and sparky death?
I have posted this before, but I will re post, this isn't meant to be typical, its expensive, and it won't work for everyone.
But it can work for alot of people who have decided that the energy costs and ICE cars have their days numbered.
We have an excellent south facing roof with 4kwh of solar panels.
We typically get around £800 from the feed in tariff, tax free.
Nissan Leaf car, which can be charged directly from the energy off the solar panels (when the sun is out). This will reduce the energy running cost of the EV car quite a bit.
We then decided that it would make some sense (although not entirely spreadsheet return on the investment) to have a Tesla Powerwall 2 battery installed.
This prevents the excess energy being exported to the grid, ( but we still get paid for this, as the calculation assumes you export 50% of the energy).
So, we can use the stored energy in the PW2, to run the home or charge the Leaf.
I would much prefer an electric car. I now drive around 11 miles each way to work, all stop start. Previously drove around 100 a day, mainly motorway. Bought a small diesel (60+ MPG) which was ideal but not now.
I would do a swap but I will lose money on the sale of my current one, and purchasing a replacement.
Good article here on living with an electric car. I expect there are plenty of others too.
https://scotthelme.co.uk/driving-an-electric-vehicle-the-nissan-leaf/
He's also a hacker so been busy with the 'connected' side of the car too
There are four charging points at our local station. Yesterday I walked past and there were four cars parked in them (including a mahoosive Porsche Canyonero with coloured brakes). None of them were actually plugged in. Were they just taking advantage of the reserved parking space, or is parking free for a certain type of Porsche owner?
Yes, similar to people parking in the disabled parking bays.
Best just to block them in, but very annoying.
"We already have enough generation capacity (give or take) "
The DfT says that the average (mean) UK car does 9,820 miles in a year. Wikipedia says that a Telsa model 3 will consume 4,000 kWh to do 10,000 miles.
There are 25 million cars in the UK. So we'd need 100 TWh to power them all by electricity. UK generating surplus is 33TWh so even if you could fully utilise spare capacity and had no grid or charging inefficiency then you'll still need an additional two Hinkley C sized reactors and a bit.
Hinckley C is expected to take 17 years to be built. The government wants us to be nearly all electric in 40 years time.
Like you say ajaj even if you half the requirement & don't forget the 33TWh surplus is only during sunny & windy conditions in summer
Could you tell me where this “enough generation capacity” is as due to TRIAD periods we have been regularly shutting down our factory since the beginning of November when a TRIAD is called as if we don’t instead of paying £0.11 per unit we pay £46 per unit!
I can’t see how this is going to work with another lump on the grid during TNUoS & DUoS periods
As the triads are not known in advance, National Grid does not forecast them.
However, National Grid issues notice of insufficient system margin (NISM)
when the system is likely to be under stress due to high demand and low generation.
Another i3 owner here (are they becoming the STW alternative to a Skoda?). While not currently perfect they are definitely the future. It's like saying the original iPhone or the early HTC Window phones were naff compared to the latest Nokia of 2007. The argument has some validity, but the future direction of travel is clear to anyone who actually looks at the tech. Battery tech is improving lots, and the i3 beats any ICE car I have ever driven. As soon as we get batteries with negligible charge cycle degradation then we will have micro grid demand buffering and be able to charge from wind/nuclear at cheap overnight rates and sell back to the grid during peak times to cover everyone boiling the kettle after watching EastEnders.
Could you tell me where this “enough generation capacity” is as due to TRIAD periods we have been regularly shutting down our factory since the beginning of November when a TRIAD is called as if we don’t instead of paying £0.11 per unit we pay £46 per unit!
I don't imagine many people will be charging at peak time due to commuting at that time and Triad is under review anyway as it's no longer working for national Grid due to the amount of avoidance now being undertaken. Futures is all going to be about flexible usage and shifting load to match Grid requirements, triad behaviour will become daily in industry and not just at peak time
As for others saying about end of life batteries, we are already able to buy multi MW batteries at work that are built using end of life EV batteries and i know some companies using these to generate a revenue supporting national Grid for demand side response
greentricky
I don’t imagine many people will be charging at peak time due to commuting at that time and Triad is under review anyway as it’s no longer working for national Grid due to the amount of avoidance now being undertaken. Futures is all going to be about flexible usage and shifting load to match Grid requirements, triad behaviour will become daily in industry and not just at peak time
Interesting few phrases you use "avoidance" ? we are informed by our supplier of the possibility of a TRIAD so react accordingly as it cost our firm £600,000 a few years back for 1/2 hour we ignored.
I understood it to be us helping out NG on not overloading the grid or we got shafted but your implication is its just a pure money grab?
There has been at least 1 TRIAD peak this year at 7pm which is past what I would consider usual commute time, I get that a huge swathe of the population works 9-5 so can cope with middle of the night charging.
But lets say like in my case I'm on call so could get home @ 6:30pm with not much range left and plug in at a premium rate & then get called out 1/2hour later.
I actually quite like the thought of an electric car but the stress involved with range anxiety is tempering that at the moment.
'But lets say like in my case I’m on call so could get home @ 6:30pm with not much range left and plug in at a premium rate & then get called out 1/2hour later.
I actually quite like the thought of an electric car but the stress involved with range anxiety is tempering that at the moment.'
how often do you drive 250 miles on a day you're going to be on call?
how often do you drive 250 miles on a day you’re going to be on call?
This is what about 99% of range anxiety comes down to, most people have little or no idea of how far they actually drive, and how it links into how how much "fuel" they need. It's not like you need to go to a special shop and fill up with special electricity. You can do it every night at home.
Which also impacts on the whole charging load/grid load.
If instead of charging 25 million cars from full to empty, you're only actually topping them up. Probably around 10%. (Given an average daily mileage) makes the whole grid loading issue look far more manageable.I mean, we've all seen the difference between normal fuel car filling practices and what happens when there is the faintest whiff of a fuel delivery drivers strike. Every filling station in the UK runs out in about 6 hours............
would much prefer an electric car. I now drive around 11 miles each way to work, all stop start
Bicycle with full mudguards and good lights? 40mins each way? All go 😉
Your ICE car is designed to last 150kmiles / 10 years. This is why, a ten year old second hand car is worth buttons, because at any moment, large nunbers of complex,extremely expensive, mechanical parts can give up and effectively write the car off immediately. For example, your car got a:
1) DMF
2) DPF
3) Turbocharger
4) high pressure fuel pump
5) Catalytic convertor
6) Multispeed gearbox
7) exhaust and EGR system
8) High pressure fuel injectors
9) Variable geometry intake manifold
10) Friction clutch or lockup torque converterI quite agree - electrics can be simpler. I watched a video of new Tesla 3 last night. One of the comments is that *everything* is done from the big touch screen thing - yet I see that as less buttons and wiring to go wrong. I see motors as individually replaceable (and made up of fewer parts), less complex drivetrains and gearboxes etc.
IMO we need to re-assess the weight of cars, lower rolling resistance and how aero they can be - at which point electric will take a step forward again. That plus battery improvements.
Electric *isnt* the future, but I am coming round to thinking it is a pragmatic step in the right direction.
I have to say that I think electric is the future - much as I've grown up to love IC cars, they are hugely inefficient etc.
That said, batteries are massively overweight currently, and have various other issues. I was more cynical 10 years ago, but hydrogen fuel cells seem a good idea.
Of course, the real future should not be talking about using a car for a journey that you could easily cycle (i.e. up to 5 miles you don't even need to consider abnormal clothing!). Even the most efficient car will have disadvantages that make it unsuited to urban transport.
My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away. I'm sure with gentle driving I could manage this with a current battery EV, but I can make the round trip on a tank of fuel without worrying too much about how hard I drive, and I prefer to make the journey non-stop in the evening with the kids asleep. I really wouldn't want to have to stop for half an hour on a Friday evening when I just want a glass of wine or beer at my parents and then some sleep.
Of course, if I could take the bike on the train easily, and if the train was a bit faster, and a bit cheaper, I'd probably use that, and wouldn't use a car at all.
Bicycle with full mudguards and good lights? 40mins each way? All go
to be fair with the state of our roads and our lackluster unjointed cycling infrastructure - an 11mile car journey could easily be a 20miles on a repeatable safe cycling route .....
I know mines used to be that - it was 11 miles using the direct route but for a safe route i had to first ride into town - through housing estates then back out of town.
the direct route would have had me killed im sure.
and I prefer to make the journey non-stop in the evening with the kids asleep. I really wouldn’t want to have to stop for half an hour on a Friday evening when I just want a glass of wine or beer at my parents and then some sleep
But you've got to appreciate that this is nit-picking. You have been very spoiled so far, but at the expense of the environment. 100 years ago a 200 mile journey with a half hour stop would have been incredible. It's all a matter of perspective. We're spoiled rotten.
Just to explain the overweight thing - I'm sure battery tech will develop, however you have the fundamental disadvantage that you have to carry all the chemicals for the reaction, whereas hydrogen fuel cells you're only carrying 1/9th of the mass of the chemicals you use to get energy.
IC engines are somewhere in the middle, but still allow inherently lighter fuel loads than a battery, and whilst the ultimate solution to this would be nuclear powered cars, I think there may be practical/safety issues with this, so we're better sticking with chemicals.
Motorway/A-road power without storage would be a great idea of course, but the infrastructure costs would be huge, so it would take a long time to implement - look at the rail electrification programs that were going to happen just after they introduced the intercity 125 as a stop-gap if you don't believe me.
Yes, but whilst EVs might not be the perfect engineering solution on their own, they fit into our current world with minimal disruption. As evidenced by the numbers of them on the road.
My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away.
I wonder if our ability to drive hundreds of miles without stopping, carrying all our gear and families with us, has led to more geographic mobility. We now live further from family, take jobs that are a commute away, have jobs that include lots and lots of travel etc.
Perhaps the real shift long term will be to fewer journeys - through a smaller geography of travel? The focus shouldn't be 'what power / road / storage space for my car?', it should be 'can I live and work without need for a car on such a routine basis?'.
I feel really challenged here - I have two cars, I use the lazy option so often, and do a job and leisure life that does many, many miles.... 🙁
(and yes, public transport options that used to be there are now lacking to support some of this change).
There are four charging points at our local station. Yesterday I walked past and there were four cars parked in them (including a mahoosive Porsche Canyonero with coloured brakes). None of them were actually plugged in. Were they just taking advantage of the reserved parking space, or is parking free for a certain type of Porsche owner?
green brakes is the plug in hybrid Porsche. Chap round the corner in the ‘cough’ new build ‘cough’ has one.
the direct route would have had me killed im sure
Fair point. Last commute I did was 11.66 miles, 85% of which was an A road that I wouldnt do nowadays. In fact one morning during the last week that I rode it, I stopped to drag a dead muntjac deer off the road (hill-crest, dark tree-cover, narrowing, blind-ish bend) Assumedly had been hit by a car moments earlier. I stopped fancying my chances around that time (coupled with a few close-calls/near-misses from stressed speeding types) and read a few reports of cyclists being killed in A-road 'collisions'. "Yes officer, I was coming over that hill, about 6:30am, and then collided with the cyclist. He came out of nowhere".
An alternate minor
-road route would have been more than double the distance as nearly all the country lanes ran perpendicularly to my route. I miss cycle-commuting. As a teen I used to cycle tour on A roads. Did the A458 from beginning to end one day 1992ish. It certainly wasn't as scary close-passy back then if my memory isn't too rose-tinted :/
Anyway. Electric cars? Cars are an enormous part of life now, and account for most everyone's daily mobility, young or old, able or disabled. Move over luddites, the future is here. 0-60 in around 2 secs? That must be frustrating in a tailback 😉
"I wonder if our ability to drive hundreds of miles without stopping, carrying all our gear and families with us, has led to more geographic mobility. We now live further from family, take jobs that are a commute away, have jobs that include lots and lots of travel etc."
Pretty much what they said about the bicycle wasnt it? Once people didnt have to have an expensive horse to leave the village 😀
My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away.
You’re talking about the current range limit future models will easily do more than 200 miles so you’ll be able to see you’re parents and have your wine. 🥂
A couple of points of order:
1) Batteries are heavy. Doesn't really matter. Mass has a small effect on economy, and even more so for an EV with a bi-directional powertrain (what actually matters is drag!) EVs are plenty fast enough already (tend to out perform ICE cars) even at their current "too heavy" weights......
2) Hydrogen Fuel cell cars also have a HV battery, because the fuel cell can't be throttled quickly enough or put out enough power to cope with the high transient power peaks. The average "road load" for a typical passenger car is just 12kW (in the uk), but most modern cars have at least 100kW (and often a LOT more). Fitting a 100kW fuel cell would not be economically viable. And once you've got a battery, then the best thing to do is to ditch the fuel cell and just fit MORE battery.
IMO, hydrogen does have some future for fixed (non mobile) transient energy storage, and load leveling, but has no viable place in passenger car mass transit. The industry would tend to agree with me, with battery capacity pretty much doubling year on year as battery costs tumble commensurately
I bought Zoé the old-fashioned way of walking into a showroom, and writing a cheque when the salesman got down to my price objective. The equivalent petrol Clio had better seats and more electronic gadgets at the same price point so objectively Zoé cost more. running costs will be about the same, the battery hire and electricity cost more per km than petrol but servicing and insurance are cheaper.
They installed a green plug connected to a regular 16A breaker that charges from flat in 18 hours. On campsites and in hotels with only 10A sockets it takes all night to recharge 60%. We rarely use public chargers, 22KW are the most common in France which gets it from 40% to 90% in just over an hour, that gets you over 150km on main raods.
Our best range was over 400km driving at tourist pace on deserted roads in the Massif Central in Summer. The worst range 200km along the autoroute to Toulouse in the rain at night to drop junior at the airport which left just enough to get to a charge point. The most common range we see after charging is 320km. Most of the the time range isn't an issue in that it's more than enough.
Trailrat's wife must have a huge commute if it takes more than can be recharged overnight - time to move house and cut the misery of commuting.
I like it, lots of people have flash impractical cars they don't need, a Cooper S rather than a Scenic, a 5 series rather than a Mondeo estate, a Boxter extension to make up for inadequacies. We all end up stuck in the same flow of traffic, the Zoé is a more zen way of being there than any other car I've driven. As Phil said, try one.
How long before the AA have vans full of batteries and a fast charger so they can come out to you and give you a quick top up to get you to the next charger?
1) Batteries are heavy. Doesn’t really matter. Mass has a small effect on economy, and even more so for an EV with a bi-directional powertrain (what actually matters is drag!) EVs are plenty fast enough already (tend to out perform ICE cars) even at their current “too heavy” weights……2) Hydrogen Fuel cell cars also have a HV battery, because the fuel cell can’t be throttled quickly enough or put out enough power to cope with the high transient power peaks. The average “road load” for a typical passenger car is just 12kW (in the uk), but most modern cars have at least 100kW (and often a LOT more). Fitting a 100kW fuel cell would not be economically viable. And once you’ve got a battery, then the best thing to do is to ditch the fuel cell and just fit MORE battery.
I'd dispute both points. You will get significant inefficiency on charging and discharging, extra mass matters even if your braking is 100% regen braking. Extra mass in the battery (or fuel storage) means extra mass in the wheels, tyres, suspension structure, a larger footprint (which is worse for congestion and the area part of drag), safety structure. There was a bloke in the Guardian a few weeks back who is running a fleet of 20 prototype fuel cell vehicles, they get a decent range on 1.5kg of H2. They get the equivalent of 250mpg, which kicks the arse out of the efficiency of an IC or battery powered car, and matters regardless of where the power is coming from, but particularly until we are carbon free for electricity generation.
The car weighs a touch over 500kg, less than half of any comparable battery electric car. This is what enables its good efficiency. It is a two seater, but then so was the first Tesla (which was far, far heavier and less efficient)
It does away with batteries but instead uses super capacitors for transient response. This is a much more effective use as these will allow better transient response for weight than batteries.
The bloke makes some good points about the infrastructure you'd need to support motorway fast charge points if the majority of cars were to be battery powered.
Yes but on the other hand, EVs can be adopted gradually and organically, and industry can respond gradually as it sees the need. An H infrastructure would require a huge infrastructure investment *before* anyone could do anything. As it is, without a widespread charging infrastructure large numbers of people can buy EVs and charge at home, as evidenced on this thread. Not so with H.
Betamax was better than VHS remember.
Betamax was better than VHS remember.
So what you’re saying is buy whatever pornstars buy.
I assume the car you saw in the Guardian was the Riversimple. There is not a chance in hell that project will ever work. Yes the car is efficient (except with taxpayer's money) but thats because its basically a moped with a roof unlike the Tesla roadster which actually went through proper NCAP crash testing etc. The Riversimple has so many flaws (like not being able to go up hills) that its become a bit of a joke. Shame really as they guy is obviously passionate and incredibly driven but he has also lost the plot.
The most common range we see after charging is 320km.
How on earth do you manage that?! There's a thread on SpeakEV where nobody has quite managed to take a Zoe 200 miles (~320km) at all yet; since we've had ours we've seen 180-ish miles at best, 145 miles at worst when it's really cold and we had been doing motorway journeys beforehand.
This morning my wife was talking about replacing her car with a used Leaf. We'll be fighting over the charger... 🙂
The riversimple car is a dead end, at least for the next 20 years.
Today, my i3, which can seat 5, has a decent sized boot, passes all current functional and crash safety tests, can be driven, serviced, and kept by anyone, and costs far less already makes it obsolete. It returns around 160mpg in daily use.
The River simple isn't actually THAT efficient. It has a very low consumption because it has low drag (not because it has low mass, although that helps, but it's 70% low drag, 30% low mass at absolute best). The RS car isn't that efficient because it has more conversion stages to deal with and each stage, despite being pretty efficient, adds an additional loss.
Do the charging cables stretch very far or can you carry an extension around for when the lazy nob-eds park in the charging bays?
Today, my i3, which can seat 5, has a decent sized boot, passes all current functional and crash safety tests, can be driven, serviced, and kept by anyone, and costs far less already makes it obsolete. It returns around 160mpg in daily use.
Is that a genuine 160mpg or a 160mpg plus electricity? (this is a question, not argument)
My i3 is a BEV, so no range extender, and on average it consumes between 289 and 208 Wh/mile. That's the same amount of energy consumption as a conventional diesel car doing between 149 and 206 mpg. Usually that energy equivalency is referred to as "eMPG"
(Of course, it doesn't include charging losses (around 2% from a slow AC charge) and the electrical losses between power station and my house. (around 9% in the Uk on average for domestic 1ph 230v AC useage)
Denis99We then decided that it would make some sense (although not entirely spreadsheet return on the investment) to have a Tesla Powerwall 2 battery installed.
This prevents the excess energy being exported to the grid, ( but we still get paid for this, as the calculation assumes you export 50% of the energy).
So, we can use the stored energy in the PW2, to run the home or charge the Leaf.
Hope that situation doesn't last long, bit of a piss take tbh
bit of a piss take tbh
It sort of is - yes it's free money, but it's extremely unlikely to ever pay back the cost of the whole system, so there has to be some incentive for people to buy these things or it'll take a lot longer for the technology and the industry to get off the ground. The subsidies won't last forever, and are already greatly reduced from what they were a few years ago.
That said, my flabber is truly gasted by the fact that a smart meter isn't compulsory when having a solar or storage system installed, so the meter will run backwards and totally undermine having different import / export prices.
I just drive with the flow of traffic and rarely use autoroutes Phil. It would be better if we didn't go up and down to ski resorts as much. From new we've averaged 12.3 kWh/100km according to the display which assuming there are still 41kWh gives a range of 333km. The climate no doubt helps.
There's a vid on Youtube of someone driving a Zoé around the périphérique in Paris untill it was nearly flat - 400km. The phrique is limited to 70kmh. Sticking to 50, 70 and 90kmh limits generally gets us around 320km. If the proposed 80 limit is applied we'll get another 20-30km.
Edit to reply to the question: the charge cables are 5m long. On the domestic plug one I carry a 30m extension cable. Renault tell you not to but if you use a cable with thick enough wires there's no problem. Never use a long extension cable tightly coiled, it will get hot enough to melt the plastic.
One of the other issues with the mass production of large battery vehicles using current technology is the mining and supply of rare earth elements such as cobalt and lithium. There is already an issue with the supply of platinum catalysts due to its use in cars. Plus the environmental costs when looking at the full life cycle of lithium batteries is not very good. Also there is a human cost of mining just look up cobalt mining in the Congo that is something we all should be worried about.
Maybe the future is producing combustible hydrocarbons through artificial photosynthesis, but probably not. Future predictions are often wrong.
Now compare this mess made by the mining of lithium with the mess made by the oil industry, kentishman.
No car is clean, no transport system is polution free, but objectively an electric car will halve the CO2 emissions per km compared with ICE, produce next to no local pollution, and achieve a very high level of recycling. Obviously this is dependent on how the electricity is produced and with an ever increasing proportion of renewables in the energy mix will improve with time.
Neither Lithium or Cobalt are Rare Earths (and Rare Earths aren't that rare, e.g. cerium is as abundant as copper but we haven't had much of a use for it until recently).
Lithium (an alkali metal) is widespread, we're going for the equivalent of 19th century iron ore or coal at the moment - really pure stuff that's cheap to process.
Cobalt is a transition metal and fairly rare. It's still cheap at £20-26k per tonne. If the price goes higher, people will start working the waste from e.g. copper processing.
On top of that, there's a lot of active research to substitute cheaper ingredients e.g. iron. Compared with the immediate devastation of oil production in the Niger Delta and the existential threat to out species of fossil fuel driven CO2 rises, I'm not worried by batteries.
whats the problem?
its perfectly legal, and we have had years of exporting to the grid , where the grid has benefited greatly.
all we are doing is storing the energy we generate, and reduce the drain on the national grid.
part of this has involved our financial investment, our outlay.
£7500 solar panels - our money
£14000 EV car
£6500 Tesla battery
we did this for environmental issues, long term reduction / being subjected to increasing electricity costs.
Could have bought a diesel car and continued to pollute the local environment.
could have bought any manner of things that wouldn't have had a direct impact on the local environment, but didn't.
could have bought a flash bike , and Audi to drive to trail centres , but didn't.
its about choice sometimes.
not a pisstake....
Once they find away to stabilise magnesium in a battery, lithium ion is dead in the water and the petrol engine will follow the day after.
Magnesium is very energy dense and readily available.
It’s just a matter of time.
Interesting few phrases you use “avoidance” ? we are informed by our supplier of the possibility of a TRIAD so react accordingly as it cost our firm £600,000 a few years back for 1/2 hour we ignored.
I understood it to be us helping out NG on not overloading the grid or we got shafted but your implication is its just a pure money grab?
There has been at least 1 TRIAD peak this year at 7pm which is past what I would consider usual commute time, I get that a huge swathe of the population works 9-5 so can cope with middle of the night charging
Avoidance is the correct term but it's in no way dodgy as in tax avoidance, any energy manager worth his salt will be undertaking triad avoidance and the financial benefit is large versus the effort. It isn't really doing the grid any favours though, the charge is there to discourage usage at that time and fund investment in the infrastructure required to deliver maximum demand, so avoidance leads to underfunding national Grid if you only cut load on triad days and it isn't representative of your peak load at peak time. This is why they are reviewing the charging mechanism and currently in court fighting to get triad export revenue removed. From next year it looks like you won't be allowed to use diesel generators for TRIAD avoidance, so that will force industry to adapt to better cutting load or boost grids income.
That 7pm triad call was a pain to say the least but will no doubt be more common in the future
Thanks for that greentricky.
I'm just an engineering manager who has to deal with the day to day TRIAD stuff but I am increasingly drawn into the energy management side of stuff. This TRIAD period we have managed to drop from our full demand of 1.4Mw to 24kw for the TRIAD duration, last year it was 105kw.
Yep your right the 7pm call was a pain as though our plant is set up for 24/7 running we usually only have staff on site 6am-6pm the rest of the time its a miller & engineer on call.
The added complication is with 4 TRIADS called in 1 week each covering 2 hours in a time when we have few staff available this means we loose our 8hrs planned maintenance stop on a Thursday given a 160hr a week run time. this impacts on efficiency of the plant so actually puts a greater load on at all other times.