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Plenty of threads on here about e-bikes but what about electric cars . Will they ever get the range up so you can drive long distances ? Who is going to make all the electricity ? Will the government draw us all in and then whack the taxes up ? Discuss
Yes the are. They already have. We already have enough generation capacity (give or take) but need some grid upgrades to make it more doable. The taxes will go up eventually but by that time they'll compete easily with ICE on cost. That's OK though because the government need taxes to do stuff. Hope that answers your questions for you.
I think car ownership will slowly become a thing of the past, there is i big infrastructure issue to charge them, and let's face it the government won't be quick to invest.
What I invisage is that when automation really kicks off, it'll all be about automated taxis. There'll be a warehouse /docking centre in all major towns with a fleet of vehicles. When you want to got somewhere, you simply summon one via phone or app, and a few mins later one turns up and takes you wherever. You then abandon the car and it goes off to the next job, or if it's low on charge or needs a service or whatever, it goes back to base.
The main reason I think this is the way things will go is that individuals won't have the administration and cost overheads of servicing, charging, mot tests etc. So private car ownership will become much less desirable.
You could even have tiers of automated cars, just nipping to tescos? A yaris /c3 thing will turn up, or opt to pay a bit more for a luxury taxi journey.
They'll be around for a time but hydrogen might have a role to play long term.
I've been driving mine for 2 years. Hardly the "future" eh!
Only e-cars that charge themselves via a non-fossil-fuel-burning source are the future, IMO. Plug-ins are a stop-gap and should be phased out as technology improves. Also, they need to improve the eco-friendliness of the batteries, as well as the range, obvs.
Our Zoe ZE40 is awesome. I haven't been to a petrol station since we got it, which is ace. On off peak electricity it's almost a tenth of the cost per mile than our other car that does 45mpg averaged throughout the year. It's lovely to drive, accelerating rapidly, smoothly and quietly. We've not done many long trips, but we did a ~300 mile round trip at Christmas without problem; in fact quite the opposite, a free public charger meant it cost £4, we also got the best parking space at an otherwise completely full Oxford services 🙂
My wife nearly ran out of fuel in the other car today, we're so used to the car just being fully fueled every morning.
tl;dr go try one, you'll love it
Most car journeys are less than 5 miles, and 90% of journeys are less than 25 miles. Range is mostly irrelevant.
No, hydrogen is the only solution.
bindun many times
they are A future, but not necessarily THE future
not until there's a charging point in practically every possible on street parking position in the country, and more than a critical mass' worth of parking spaces in carparks, etc.
spose I could dangle a power lead out my kitchen window, down 2 storeys, across next doors roof, along 6 bays of car port, down round the gutter to charge a car in my parking spot.
A friend and i had almost this exact conversation a few months age, and what we decided was practically word for word what mattyfez said above.
i cant wait tbh, even though I drive coaches for a living.
i see enough bad driving to think it would be better if machines did it for us, and once they are fully automated most of the charging/parking issues disappear.
I think car ownership will slowly become a thing of the past, there is i big infrastructure issue to charge them, and let’s face it the government won’t be quick to invest.What I invisage is that when automation really kicks off, it’ll all be about automated taxis. There’ll be a warehouse /docking centre in all major towns with a fleet of vehicles. When you want to got somewhere, you simply summon one via phone or app, and a few mins later one turns up and takes you wherever. You then abandon the car and it goes off to the next job, or if it’s low on charge or needs a service or whatever, it goes back to base.
In the universe you inhabit, perhaps, with big shiny buildings, airships flying everywhere and beautiful people all wearing shiny silver jumpsuits.
Meanwhile in the real world where the majority of the population live away from major conurbations, with little infrastructure, and ****-all public transport, and little foreseeable chance of it getting better, private cars will always be essential.
A friend of mine lives more than a mile from any bus stop, and taxis are very expensive, and she is surrounded by villages which never see a bus or any form of public transport.
When all electric cars can match my diesel Octavia and get 500+ miles from a single tank/charge, then IC engines [i]might[/i] see their days numbered.
Range is mostly irrelevant
Quite the opposite...
Meanwhile in the real world where the majority of the population live away from major conurbations
Read that back and think about it for a bit... 🙂
The only solution is hugely improved public transport with autonomous cars for the last few miles. The only variable is how long it takes us to accept.that. People who live in the sricks will still still need cars but even then elsctric will work for most.
Stevious
Yes the are. They already have. We already have enough generation capacity (give or take) but need some grid upgrades to make it more doable.
Could you tell me where this "enough generation capacity" is as due to TRIAD periods we have been regularly shutting down our factory since the beginning of November when a TRIAD is called as if we don't instead of paying £0.11 per unit we pay £46 per unit!
I can't see how this is going to work with another lump on the grid during TNUoS & DUoS periods
As the triads are not known in advance, National Grid does not forecast them.
However, National Grid issues notice of insufficient system margin (NISM)
when the system is likely to be under stress due to high demand and low generation.
I could count the number of times I've driven 500 miles without stopping long enough to recharge on my fingers even if I had no arms.
Charging speeds are getting faster all the time, so long journeys are no problem, you just stop every couple of hours for twenty minutes or so, which you should be doing anyway.
The whole experience of living with an EV is just so much more pleasant than with an ICE car it's easily worth the occasional niggle they aren't quite as good at (yet).
Most people don't really drive very far each day; we are above average and still only use about 10kwh a day, which isn't that much especially when it can be taken at any point overnight when grid demand is low. There's a reason it only costs us 5p/kWh instead of 11 or 24 at peak times.
Plus, it's generally plugged in during the evening with plenty of charge left it could easily run our house all evening with little effect on the range and plenty of time to recharge again before the next morning. Enough cars could lessen or even remove the evening peak, which could save a fortune.
Without any smart control and if we all started charging at 5pm it would be chaos, but that's not going to happen.
i3 here too. 18months 16k Miles. Defiantly the future.
It has its limitations, mostly range. But we use ours for local(ish) trips and it’s worked out very well.
Get them to 300+ miles and charge to 80% in say 30 minutes (and the cost down) and it’s probably game over for most ICE cars.
could count the number of times I’ve driven 500 miles without stopping long enough to recharge on my fingers even if I had no arms.
Commonplace in countries like Australia. Don't know what they'll do when electric becomes common, maybe tow a trailer with a gen set?
I've been trying to persuade my wife we should go electric for the last few years.
Meanwhile in the real world where the majority of the population live away from major conurbations, with little infrastructure, and ****-all public transport, and little foreseeable chance of it getting better, private cars will always be essential.
Do the majority of people live away from conurbations? >50% of the UK population live in one of the countries top 40 "urban" areas. The majority of those are already serviced by Uber
A friend of mine lives more than a mile from any bus stop, and taxis are very expensive, and she is surrounded by villages which never see a bus or any form of public transport.
If anything the model described is a solution to that problem. The fundamental barrier is the psychology of the status symbol not the practicality of the solution. And obviously the cost of the batteries!
When all electric cars can match my diesel Octavia and get 500+ miles from a single tank/charge, then IC engines might see their days numbered.
That sort of performance has already been claimed: https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/902345/Fisker-solid-state-electric-car-battery-range-charging-times. How often do you drive your car from full to empty without stopping? Realistically for the majority of home users a range of 200-250 miles would be enough - especially if there is a fast roadside charge option.
What if motorways (or big A roads) had the ability to charge your battery as you drive? (so the battery is only needed for for interuptions in the road surface and the local sections).
not without a quantum leap forward in battery design. ~Energy density is just too low by an order of magnitutde
Being worked on TJ, I’ve a friend in the industry who says they have test bench batteries with 400 mile + range, they just need “Squaddy proofing” to fit into cars.
What if motorways (or big A roads) had the ability to charge your battery as you drive? (so the battery is only needed for for interuptions in the road surface and the local sections).
Lifting the car up to blow the dust of the contact my become tiring after a while.
Think the main reason that electric cars are going to struggle for a while longer is that most of the car buying public are slightly thick, slightly lazy and slightly vain. Or a combination of all three.
All these "issues" that are up there are either already well on the way to being solved or not really issues. They are just made up based on fear and lack of rational thought.
We'll be looking at electric to replace my wife's car later this year. We don't buy new so I'll have to look at how used cars, like the Zoe, work with the battery. I think you need to lease the battery for the Zoe, not sure on other makes.
Anyone buy a used electric car recently?
+1 for Mattyfez. certainly for urban areas (that's nearly 83% of the population of the UK according to https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/urban-population-percent-of-total-wb-data.html)
I can still see the need for private vehicles for the remaining 17%, but full electric and AI driven would work there as well.
Multistory carparks could be turned into vehicle hubs. After each shift the vehicles return to hub to be cleaned /charged / repaired and then are back out again.
Streets would become free of parked cars increasing traffic flow and making driving safer and simpler for the AI drivers, large sections of city center's will become pedestrianised, air quality would be improved, no more speeding / aggressive drivers wanting to mow down cyclists because we 'don't pay road tax'. More mobility for the elderly and disabled. I'm really struggling to see the downsides...
Sure there are obstacles to overcome, but given how far the technology has advanced in the last 10 years I predict that AI will become mainstream in 15 years, and car ownership will start to decline rapidly from that point forward. I already have colleagues in London who don't own cars anymore. They rely on bikes / public transport / UBER for most journeys and on the odd occasion that they need to travel a bit further, they hire a car. Works out much cheaper for them.
The switch to AI over human driver for them would be a massive bonus for them...
So you live in a semi detatched house with a drive, adding a charge point isn't a big deal, how about adding two, or three? How about living in a terraced street without drives or allocated parking, or on the third floor of a new build block with parking spaces limited to 40% of flat numbers in a planning condition? Would you buy one then, not knowing where or if you'll get to put it on charge at night. I don't think the long term problem is overall quantity of generation (though only last week one of our local power stations(Eggborough) announced closure as they can't make enough money running a fossil fuel generator on standby most of the time).
'adding a charge point isn’t a big deal'
while its not a big deal to fit the plug its a pain in the hoop if you have a 60amp supply out in the sticks......
equally there are no charge points at the wifes work - where the car goes on the days she is not cycling.
I think electric bicycles would be a much better use of space and resources for the majority of journeys.
Infrastructure is part of the issues yes but it can be overcome, you don’t need your own personal charge point just a charge point that uses a smart device for payment.
They’re very much the future and rapidly becoming far more practical for long distance journeys, I went hybrid this time and it superb Next time I’ll be looking at the full electric options as they will have progressed even more.
A few years ago my wife’s work had not electric charge points, now they have over a dozen and staff can use them for free.
Do the majority of people live away from conurbations?
By definition they don't - the conurbations woudn't exist if people didn't live in them.
I think you need to lease the battery for the Zoe, not sure on other makes.
I think Nissan stopped doing this early on, and I think Renault too?
ust a charge point that uses a smart device for payment.
so now as well as buying a new car i need to buy a new phone as well ? cant it just take card for payment ?
while its not a big deal to fit the plug its a pain in the hoop if you have a 60amp supply out in the sticks
Yes but that doesn't apply to most people. Why are people moaning about something not working for the minority when it's a great idea for the majority? Why does there only have to be one system?
Trail Rat - anyone would think you don't want change...
i think the car is the issue for the majority of journeys more than its power source....
hence my electric bicycle comment.
[img] http://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi [/img]
That's a different issue, but a perfectly valid one.
so now as well as buying a new car i need to buy a new phone as well ? cant it just take card for payment ?
I never used my phone yet I do use the smart card though.
I’m also not sure anyone has said there should be more cars and less bikes.
I love mine!
The charging network is expanding literally every week which is fantastic, but as someone on here hinted most of us dont do that many milkes on a daily basis so the charging requirement isnt a massive concern.
In terms of the old pollution argument, there is something to be said for the electric car kicking the pollution can further down the line to the power stations....if and when nuclear properly comes online that should make it a whole lot cleaner....i'm sure someone will be along to correct me! 🙂
Meanwhile in the real world where the majority of the population live away from major conurbations,
The real world can change though. All the 'range anxiety' argument about electric cars reveals is a lot of people chose to live in the wrong place relative to the places where they work or the resources that they need. People who live in the right place might find the future quite convenient and their example might encourage people who live in the wrong place to change their arrangements.
Its demand shaping. Demand shaping is why you have a freezer in the kitchen - its for the power generators convenience not yours. Thats why all the White Goods retailers on the high street were run by power companies. The laziness that liquid fuel allows has shaped how the population has distributed itself over the last few decades relative to the places they need to work, shop etc. The difference is that demand wasn't shaped by anyone's plan - but its perfectly easy to implement a plan and over generation or so people would configure their lives to fit around any new model for transport.
I recently spent some time trying to convince the wife that we could switch to our 2 cars for 1 ICE for the occasional longer trip and 1 electric car which would be perfectly capable of 95% of our journeys.
Her arguments against amounted to
I don't want to have to "plan" my journeys
It's too much trouble to put it on charge when I get home (she often tends to make 4+ 15-30 mile smallish trips which quickly mounts up) during the day
I don't want change
Part of the future
No, hydrogen is the only solution.
The hydrogen economy which was imminent when I was at school 50 years ago? It must be just around the corner by now, surely?
For most people for most journeys yes.
One important change will be if multi mode transport becomes easier, transfering from cars to train or bus or bike or autonomous taxis for part of the journey. One of the issues at the moment with current park and rides etc is the speed of transfer between one mode and the next. The other is overly centralised and congested hubs of carparks. Some autonomous vehicles makes this easier.
I agree with trailrat in that electric bikes for utility purposes have massive potential shame all the hype seems to be on them as enduro machines. With good inforstructure e bikes could be massive
[i]phiiiiil
Our Zoe ZE40 is awesome. I haven’t been to a petrol station since we got it, which is ace. On off peak electricity it’s almost a tenth of the cost per mile than our other car that does 45mpg averaged throughout the year. It’s lovely to drive, accelerating rapidly, smoothly and quietly. We’ve not done many long trips, but we did a ~300 mile round trip at Christmas without problem; in fact quite the opposite, a free public charger meant it cost £4, we also got the best parking space at an otherwise completely full Oxford services
My wife nearly ran out of fuel in the other car today, we’re so used to the car just being fully fueled every morning.
go try one, you’ll love it[/i]
In a few years time, reverse your situation. When everyone is driving electric cars.
You pull into the services and all the charge points are in use and for who knows how long.
Electric cars are a ridiculous idea, but the industry won't shy away from selling us all electric cars now and bio-fuelled cars in 20 years time.
MTB Wheel size, anyone?
Her arguments against amounted to
I don’t want to have to “plan” my journeys
This is the issue with petrol /diesel - its just easy. If we'd never discovered a way of making oil-fueled engines and had to use little coal-fired, steam powered cars instead they'd be so much more 'green' than our current cars because you'd generally think twice about whether you were going to get up at 4am to light the boiler before you set off at 8 in the morning and you'd think twice about driving to the shops if it meant having to rake out all the ash afterwards.
Its a measure of just how easy petrol /diesel is that even though we have to technology to make extremely economical cars, for reasons of fashion we make and sell/buy really big, mechanically inefficient ones instead.
It means that by comparison plugging in a car for the 8 hours you're asleep or the 8 hours your car is in the works carpark is 'hassle'
"I agree with trailrat in that electric bikes for utility purposes have massive potential shame all the hype seems to be on them as enduro machines. With good inforstructure e bikes could be massive"
its not just infrastructure its how bikes as a whole are viewed , they are viewed as a toy not a tool in this country - hence why all we see is the gnarduro marketing of them. Look in holland for how powerful a tool the bicycle can be.
cargo bike never fails to strike up a conversation as i load my weeks shopping onto it - and mines not even a very good one - its just a hash of some old parts and a basic bolt on electric kit , id love a bakfiets or a douze but your approaching the cost of a cheap car there by the time you have electrically assisted it. But ultimately its the same tired excuses of "i like the idea but its not very safe is it ? " or "but ill get wet ? "
so now as well as buying a new car i need to buy a new phone as well ? cant it just take card for payment?
The EU have mandated that all new public charge points will take contactless payments in the near future, so it's being worked on. By those more forward thinking than us, admittedly...
You pull into the services and all the charge points are in use and for who knows how long.
The number of charge points will obviously go up as the number of cars goes up. So will the distance cars will go between charges, and the speed they charge at - current chargers are 50kw, planned ones are 350kw - so more cars can use one charger in a given time. These are not insurmountable problems.
The speed of charging is really the game changer; even if you don't have somewhere to charge at home, for most people you will just fully charge your car once a week in fifteen minutes while you're in a shop or something. A smattering of fast chargers in places like shops where people spend a bit of time anyway and most of the problems go away.