[Closed] Election Campaign

Milliband was correct about EU if not for the correct reasons.

The EU brings tremendous benefits and remains our biggest trading partner. Its four pillars of freedom also bring huge benefits to the UK. Lab did well, ok Ed and Gordi did well, to avoid the € folly. That's the bit that clearly doesn't work.

We should be strongly supporting the EU along with its four freedoms of movement - people, goods, services and capital - and fight those who seek to prevent them.

I understand the vocal support for the SNP was quite strong in the room, interesting that given the event was in Westminster

So the nasty separatists had rigged the audience and bussed in some cheerleaders?

It couldn't just be that people liked what Nicola Sturgeon said then?

What would William of Ockham say?

I understand the vocal support for the SNP was quite strong in the room, interesting that given the event was in Westminster

You really think the SNP bussed a load of stooges down to London and smuggled them into the audience? What would be the point?

It's much more likely that people actually like a lot of what Sturgeon was saying. For ages people have been jokingly calling for a "none of the above" option on the ballot paper - well, for English voters, perhaps Sturgeon is that option.

I though they were talking about "spoiling" their voting slips - wouldn't that be more appropriate?

The applause seemed more for the "get out of jail free" cards that were being offered.

I agree actually, everyone assumes a hung parliament is a foregone conclusion but I wouldn't be at all surprised if one side ends up with a tiny overall majority. having said that, it looks very unlikely, and in the event of a hung parliament, the tories are looking very isolated.

Not impossible but it'd mean the polls are very wrong. Labour would need to do better than forecast in England as well as hugely better than forecast in Scotland to get a majority. A Tory majority seems even less likely although they could still be the biggest party.

Most likely scenario for me still seems to be a Labour minority government propped up by the SNP and LibDems - but with the Tories being the biggest party in England and the SNP being the biggest in Scotland. Be interesting to see how that pans out if it was the case!

What is the SNP end game ? Their ultimate ambition is an independent Scotland so how would they achieve this given some kind of supporting agreement to prop up a Labour Westminster government ? If they insist on lots of concessions/deals for Scotland and get them, then won't that reduce the likelihood of a future independence referendum voting "yes" ?

Wouldn't it be in their interests to be seen has constantly getting a raw deal from Westminster ? "We tried to get X, but Labour wouldn't have it, nasty UK government".

There was some talk of this in the "spin room" after last night's debate, speculation that SNP would initially play along but then bring the government down.

Perhaps that memo was correct and SNP would prefer Cameron in No 10 🙂

SNP is in a bit of a funny position now. If they were to form an alliance with Labour, they'd be bound to represent Scotland's interests strongly of course. So then the UK would end up with strong advocates specifically for Scotland, but not for the other countries.

So you might say a coalition should be formed of SNP, Plaid and.. the DUP.. but Plaid represents a pretty small minority in Wales and the DUP aren't even the only NI specific party..

Right dog's breakfast that'd be.

What is the SNP end game ? Their ultimate ambition is an independent Scotland so how would they achieve this given some kind of supporting agreement to prop up a Labour Westminster government ? If they insist on lots of concessions/deals for Scotland and get them, then won't that reduce the likelihood of a future independence referendum voting "yes" ?

Not necessarily - the number of people in England who've said they hate the idea of "being governed by the Scots" might lead to an increase in public anti-Scottish feeling from within in England, which would then give momentum to Scottish independence in response.

At the moment nearly every possible scenario looks like it's a positive one for the SNP - except if the polls are wrong and Labour manage to hang onto a majority of seats in Scotland and can form a government without the SNP.

The best pro-union response from either the Labour party or the Tories would be to embrace the SNP into a coalition if they do become the majority party in Scotland, and re-structure Westminster to properly segregate out regional voting e.g. only English MP's voting on issues that relate to England only.

jambalaya - Member
LibDems poll 7% and will probably get 30-40 seats.

I was thinking the Lib Dems would be wiped out to single figures. (Previous election they got 23% of the vote and 57 MPs.)

What is the SNP end game ? Their ultimate ambition is an independent Scotland so how would they achieve this given some kind of supporting agreement to prop up a Labour Westminster government ?

I'm not sure it's that complicated. Another independence vote is off the agenda for a long time, certainly 10 years or more. The next best option of devo max/home rule can best be guaranteed by a powerful SNP influencing a labour govt. If the labour govt fail to deliver, then they can start demanding a new referendum vote.

[quote=dazh said]Another independence vote is off the agenda for a long time, certainly 10 years or more.

You reckon ? 🙂

You reckon ?

Absolutely. Even if the SNP were brazen enough to demand another vote as a result of a failure to deliver on devo-max, the UK govt would still have to agree to it and that's simply not going to happen when the same people who campaigned against independence are still in power.

I say you lot "[b]Debate me! Debate me! Just you and me![/b]" 😆

ctk - Member
The funniest thing from the Debate was Ed saying "Debate me, debate me David, just me and you"

😆 What is that?

That person is definitely Not a PM quality.

EEewwww ... "debate me, debate me ..." Crikey ...

Ya, from now on I shall call him Mr Debate Me, Debate me or Mr Debate me x2.

😆

wants someone to pull him off .....

Another term of Conservative government will finish off our public services.

The Greens are a middle-class liberal wet dream, all good and great in principle, but most people who support their ideas can afford to support them.

UKIP and the National Parties just want to blame other people (Immigrants, the English etc), we need less Nationalism in this world, not more.

So the only logical choice, albeit with a history of illegal warmongering and piss poor financial management, is Labour.

We're really ****ed this time aren't we 🙁

UKIP and the National Parties just want to blame other people (Immigrants, the English etc), we need less Nationalism in this world, not more.

Utter shite. Some of the people in England could do with realising that the bottom half of a tiny rock in the middle of the North Atlantic isn't the centre of the Universe.

teamhurtmore - Member
Milliband was correct about EU if not for the correct reasons.

The EU brings tremendous benefits and remains our biggest trading partner. Its four pillars of freedom also bring huge benefits to the UK. Lab did well, ok Ed and Gordi did well, to avoid the € folly. That's the bit that clearly doesn't work.

EU is just a trading partner so I don't see any reasons why you cannot trade with them if you want more control of your own border? Yes?

We should be strongly supporting the EU along with its four freedoms of movement - people, goods, services and capital - [b]and fight those who seek to prevent them.[/b]

I thought you are an intelligent person but judging from your call to war "... and fight those who seek to prevent them.", crikey you are not real are you?

I mean I used to hang around my anarchist, extreme left, communists and red armies friends they always do that ... let's prevent them this and that ... let's start a revolution ... let's kick those middle class out ... let's save the world etc ...

FFS! Stop shagging the women and get some work done will you! I am not cleaning the kitchen for you nor am I going to keep the place tidy for you. (we shared a house btw)

Bunch of detached idealistic utopian womanizers ... ya, all they do is trying impress the opposite sex and try to get to their knickers.

Guess what ... they are so rich now I wonder where's that save the world shite they used to talk about. I mean they are rich and they even do not want to know me.

😯

I mean I used to hang around my anarchist, extreme left, communists and red armies friends they always do that ... let's prevent them this and that ... let's start a revolution ... let's kick those middle class out ... let's save the world etc ...

FFS! Stop shagging the women and get some work done will you! I am not cleaning the kitchen for you nor am I going to keep the place tidy for you.

Bunch of detached idealistic utopian womanizer ... ya, all they do is trying impress the opposite sex and try to get to their knickers.

10/10 for the rant 😀

You should've taken a leaf out of their book.

Utter shite. Some of the people in England could do with realising that the bottom half of a tiny rock in the middle of the North Atlantic isn't the centre of the Universe.

I think you just proved my point.

dazh - Member
10/10 for the rant

You should've taken a leaf out of their book.

Which page? I am not good at pulling nor am I good at "saving" the world.

😀

Some of the people in England could do with realising that the bottom half of a tiny rock in the middle of the North Atlantic isn't the centre of the Universe.

It's bit more than a tiny rock though isn't it? For starters it has a lot of other rocks elsewhere. Has provided the world with the language and dress of business the world over. Sits at the top table of the UN, big player in NATO, has important voices in top tier banking and legal rights. Big contributor to the EU. Big player in the Olympic movement and other sports like football. And who's global culture has spread around the world good and bad (Rolling Stones vs One Direction). And just today Rolls-Royce won a £6.1 billion contract to supply plane engines.

You can pretend it isn't important, and it certainly isn't centre of the Universe (where is) but it has way more clout than the majority of places worldwide.

and dress of business the world over

Oh great. So the nondescript business suit with silly thing round the neck pointing to your genitals is our fault?

Big player in the Olympic movement and other sports like football

?

For starters it has a lot of other rocks elsewhere. Has provided the world with the language and dress of business the world over. Sits at the top table of the UN, big player in NATO, has important voices in top tier banking and legal rights. Big contributor to the EU. Big player in the Olympic movement and other sports like football. And who's global culture has spread around the world good and bad (Rolling Stones vs One Direction). And just today Rolls-Royce won a £6.1 billion contract to supply plane engines.

Are you saying that they are all good things?

Good lunch?

Free trade within one of the world's largest trading blocks as a starter

Its a metaphorical fight - I have a libertarian bias, so the concept of freedom of movement is very appealing. So not sure about "prevent", more like "allow"

Personally I think the UK does more good in a lot of those than not. Sure no ones perfect, but compared to the way others run things we are a model to look up to.

UKIP and the National Parties just want to blame other people (Immigrants, the English etc), we need less Nationalism in this world, not more.

In Scotland at least, nationalism is all about civic nationalism, not ethnic. It's not in the slightest about blaming the English - and the fact that some English people insist on seeing it like that says a lot more about them than it does about Scotland.

What's the SNP's end plan? I don't think they have one, any more than Labour or the Tories have an end plan. They used to be a single-issue party the way UKIP are, but now they're much broader than that, taking over the centre-left ground that Labour abandoned. And who knows from here? If the SNP do well this election, might they stand candidates in the North of England next time?

Scottish independence, at least for me (and I'm not a SNP member) wasn't an end point, it was a means to an end. there might be other ways to get that same result without full Scottish independence - at the moment I doubt it, but it's possible.

What I think we're really moving towards is a more loose coalition of states. The Tories lost Scotland a generation ago, Labour lost Scotland last September, but more importantly the electoral map after May 7th will look very different either side of the border. We are still a Kingdom for the moment, we are very far from being United.

teamhurtmore - Member

Good lunch?

Free trade within one of the world's largest trading blocks as a starter

Its a metaphorical fight - I have a libertarian bias, so the concept of freedom of movement is very appealing. So not sure about "prevent", more like "allow"

Yes, good lunch indeed because I had smoke sprats. I bought them from my local Polish/Eastern European mini supermarket.

Now, you are being "entrepreneurial" ...

You want to tell the people how to run their business? Shouldn't you just let the business people adjust accordingly?

Trade does not simply vanish because we are out of EU you know. If you think investors are going to leg it because we are out of EU then think again.

😯

but compared to the way others run things we are a model to look up to.

You sound like my dad when he goes on a rant about how all the darkies couldn't run their own countries after we left them to it.

😯 Indeed

No I want people to be free to run their business - 180 degree difference

No it doesn't - but google pros and cons of trading blocs - any A level revision site will do. We don't do it just for fun.

Google - Japan, China and US views on UK position in Europe

Ben looking at the voting map don't you mean urban or metropolitan nationalism? The vote was very, very concentrated

In Scotland at least, nationalism is all about civic nationalism, not ethnic. It's not in the slightest about blaming the English - and the fact that some English people insist on seeing it like that says a lot more about them than it does about Scotland

As an Ulsterman, to be accused of being one of those "* English *****" during that period wasn't particularly pleasant.

teamhurtmore - Member

Indeed

No I want people to be free to run their business - 180 degree difference

No it doesn't - but google pros and cons of trading blocs - any A level revision site will do. We don't do it just for fun.

Google - Japan, China and US views on UK position in Europe

Of course multinationals (from Japan, China, US etc) want to say something because they are multinationals that want to dominate the trade. They want to monopolise to prevent smaller businesses from emerging. That's business.

Yes, you can go on about how they create jobs etc but they are experts in business so they should adopt to the changes. But being multinationals and too big to fail they now want to muscle in to influence govt policy?

Ya, right ... so you rather let multinational corporations dictate how a country should be run? See you are not really thinking properly aren't you? Rather inconsistent there with your lefty arguments.

🙄

Blimey, blaming the English is a national sport in Scotland especially in the SNP and during the referendum debate. You hear it day in day out. How could we (the English) think any differently.

Rather inconsistent there with your lefty arguments.

😀 Bloody communists!

Ben looking at the voting map don't you mean urban or metropolitan nationalism? The vote was very, very concentrated

dazh - Member

Rather inconsistent there with your lefty arguments.

Bloody communists!

No, that's a rather poor communist. Actually not even a communist.

In fact it's more like him/her being confused of his/her own ideology.

😆

I think I will leave it at the, "really was a good lunch" stage other than...

....yes, they do adapt to changes, so you have answered your own question, albeit in a contradictory manner.

Anyway, aside from the amusing arguments about whether THM is a raging lefty, this Coalition of Chaos thing is very funny. No doubt someone in tory HQ is feeling very pleased with themselves for thinking up that one. I'm expecting a menacing attack ad any time now with the evil empire theme tune from star wars and Miliband and Sturgeon dressed as the emperor and Darth Vader.

teamhurtmore - Member

I think I will leave it at the, "really was a good lunch" stage other than...

....yes, they do adapt to changes, so you have answered your own question, albeit in a contradictory manner.

Jesusss! (pronounce the Spanish way)

If your views are representative of all lefty views you have just played right into the hands of multinationals. Well done. You just help kill off all the small businesses.

😯

I think there needs to be two

😯 😯

I say you lot "Debate me! Debate me! Just you and me!"

ctk - Member
The funniest thing from the Debate was Ed saying "Debate me, debate me David, just me and you"
What is that?

That person is definitely Not a PM quality.

EEewwww ... "debate me, debate me ..." Crikey ...

Ya, from now on I shall call him Mr Debate Me, Debate me or Mr Debate me x2.

Ah my memory of what he said wasn't perfect. Second clip down on this page is what he actually says. "Debate me one on one" X

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32328664 ]Debate me x[/url]

UKIP and the National Parties just want to blame other people (Immigrants, the English etc), we need less Nationalism in this world, not more.

Ok some of the SNP support will of course be anti-English (just as much of the hatred of the SNP comes from people who are themselves anti-Scots) however it's a fallacy to think it's an England v Scotland thing. In fact for many/most people it's about a lack of representation from Westminster and I'm sure many other parts of the UK (including parts of England that are themselves distant from Westminster) feel the same way.

If your views are representative of all lefty views you have just played right into the hands of multinationals.

Yes THM is a typical multinational-loving lefty. And who hates small businesses of course.

Anyway Chewwy can you expand on why the Green Party is out of touch with reality and why UKIP is the only sensible choice?

😯

I know its a bit one dimensional but some of those distant from Westminster who feel they are not represented need to understand how much money Westminster (which is made up of MPs from through the UK remember) sends their way in terms of Government jobs, NHS, infrastruture spending, welfare etc

.....need to understand how much money Westminster (which is made up of MPs from through the UK remember) sends their way in terms of Government jobs, NHS, infrastruture spending, welfare etc

I put it down to the extortionate parking charges in Westminster, no wonder it's awash with money.