[Closed] effin drunk kids!!!!!

probly would have sh1t themselves if you had decked the nearest, and asked whos next? Just be prepared to leg it if they all come! (in my experience) and the girls are the worst!

Thats bad mate! There are some many drunk teenagers knocking around the place lol, got some abuse of some the other night on a ride.

Sounds unfortunately as you said you were out numbered. They would have probably been rubbish, after all they were drunk 🙄

felt like doing that but thinking about my 2 nippers at home and all this in the news about have a go hero's changed my mind!!

starting to feel like a coward now!!

18 to 1 are good odds, I don't think they will trouble anyone else next time.

I was in a bad mood that day.

you aren't a coward. nothing good would have come in getting physical.

you know right from wrong and getting bashed up or doing some bashing doesn't help things.

education and examples to kids going forward will get us out of this anti social crap. fighting wont.

Both Mark and colnago are correct in their own ways.

Me I'm a runner

Nope not a coward at all, it's called not being an idiot.

As above, you definitely did the right thing.

You walked away, unhurt and so did they. I'd say that was a win for you, so don't look at it as cowardly in anyway. Say you did ****t one of them, they fall, bang their head and *poof* you're up for a charge. For what?

You chose the best course of action. I wouldn't have even turned round as it could have been an opener for something worse. Keep your head up, act confident and keep walking.

The problem with facing groups is that it only takes one of them to Judas you, and then you've suddenly got 10 "hard as ****" kids trying to jump on your head or bounce a bottle off you.

as a backup...
Im only a smallish chap 5'8" and of slight build, and generaly will walk on by, but sometimes these thugs need sorting out, they only go on like they do because they think they are tough and scarey. Generaly they aint, there drunk kids, you have to weigh up the situation, but I dont see why I should have to alter my way home/ dog route etc. cos a bunch of chavs want to try and intimidate me. F~ck em

Maybe you should have just got the ******* mutt out his way? ;P

Hunt them down one by one vigalantie style 😈

Oh and for the record i would have done the same so you are not a coward but an upstanding citizen 😉

You should've beat them up, break a few legs and spines and then walk home. Otherwise, they'll keep thinking (?) highly of themselves 🙂
Seriously though, good job you walked away. I'd love to think I would.

[img] [/img]

Release the hound! lols

just been out with the the dog, for his night time poop (bagged n binned) no chavs so I havnt had to unleash any ninja on em! Be careful out there 😉

probably best to let them be, they're drunk and are liable to do something stupid. There's nothing shameful about being stabbed by a drunken gang of kids. Despite their youth and cowardice it's easy to get overwhelmed. I speak from experience.

If it had of come to blows, you need to identify the ringleader and take him down quickly and brutally but that's a last resort and having been in that position I'd advocate walking away every time if possible. It's not a pleasant experience to go through. I've regretted the two times I've had to do this despite it meaning I ended up safe.

had a similar situation a few years ago, the local burberry clad scumbags used to hang out at the rec at the end of our road. I was walking past one evening on my way to the take away when one of them started shouting abuse at one of my (elderly) neighbors and his wife, resulting in the old boy walking away virtually in tears. Now I know I should have done the sensible thing, etc, but I was too angry at what had just happened, so I walked over and asked what the * they thought they were doing - as I recall, the chav in charge told me to * off, and I seem to remember one or two of the others gobbing at me. By this stage, I had started to have second thoughts about what I was doing, but didnt really see any way I could resolve things without looking like an even bigger idiot, so, with my ringpiece twitching merrily away, I gave the one in charge a smack in the mouth - thank christ, he went down and stayed there, and luckily for me, his mates all had a sudden change of heart and decided to do a runner.
The old boy had witnessed this, and was really s******g it cos he thought they'd come back for him. Still not sure I did the right thing, but have to admit that for a week or two afterwards, I had a bit of a swagger on, and caught myself doing my best taxi driver (you looking at me?) impression a number of times.

Still not sure I did the right thing, but have to admit that for a week or two afterwards, I had a bit of a swagger on, and caught myself doing my best taxi driver (you looking at me?) impression a number of times.

Oh dear.

So in response to some kids shouting abuse you decided to assault one of them? Well done.

Sorry, but I feel that your use of the term 'assault' is a bit rich, considering that this was the same group of a***holes that used to make monkey noises whenever I walked past with my little boy (he has a mild learning disability). You know what, in hindsight, I wish I'd have leathered him again.

Who was it that said "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"?

Just remember the girls will be pregnant in a year or so and the boys will end up in a factory making pies. Karma, they will end up have a sh!t life!

Barnsleymitch, I for one salute you.

Yeah they sound like horrible people, but what does hitting them achieve exactly? It's only going to make them more bitter and unpleasant.

I'm sure I will get called a bleeding heart liberal, but we have a really unhealthy attitude towards young people in this country. Trying to engage badly behaved kids in positive ways is hard, but is much more likely to work than belting them.

And yeah, sorry, but it is pretty clearly assault.

Grumm its bleeding heart liberals like you that mean the kids get away with this shit.

I have neither the skill, the strength nor the brass balls to do it myself, but as a bleeding-hearted liberal I feel strongly that many drunken young people would benefit from being hit in the mouth by Mitch before being engaged more contructively by a society that really understood their problems and wanted to nurture their creative individualism. 🙂

Grumm its bleeding heart liberals like you that mean the kids get away with this shit.

Utter bullshit. I actually do work in deprived communitys that tries to address some of this type of behaviour and encourage positive activities/attitudes - while you sit on your arse fantasizing about beating up poor kids.

yea sorry grumm i really dont agree with you bud.

bleeding heart liberal is what you are. Nice idea in theory but in practice not really!

i do agree that talking and working with kids will get through to them, but when someone is out on their own and are confronted with a possibly violent situation then there are very few options when talking doesnt work.

I just want to say that I dont advocate smacking all gobby young kids when they get a bit lairy - of course that's not the answer, and I'm not enough of a meathead to think that it is. What I am trying to say is that in that particular set of circumstances, that's what I did, and in hindsight, I havent really had any sleepless nights worrying about it.
Life's too short, and in my experience, there's always something bigger to get your knickers in a twist about.

[i]"Utter bullshit. I actually do work in deprived communitys that tries to address some of this type of behaviour and encourage positive activities/attitudes - while you sit on your arse fantasizing about beating up poor kids."[/i]

Oh come on, there must have been one you wanted to give a bit of a slap.

After being quite badly attacked by a group of about 18 'youths' I have to agree that a good smacking would sort these people out. Trust me that is what they would have got if there were only five of them.

These people think they are too 'ard for education and positive engagement. If they get smacked a few times then they will quickly learn to stop. No doubt my tax money will pay for their unemployment benefit and 14 year old preggers girlfriend.

had a similar situation a few years ago, the local burberry clad scumbags used to hang out at the rec at the end of our road. I was walking past one evening on my way to the take away when one of them started shouting abuse at one of my (elderly) neighbors and his wife, resulting in the old boy walking away virtually in tears. Now I know I should have done the sensible thing, etc, but I was too angry at what had just happened, so I walked over and asked what the * they thought they were doing - as I recall, the chav in charge told me to * off, and I seem to remember one or two of the others gobbing at me. By this stage, I had started to have second thoughts about what I was doing, but didnt really see any way I could resolve things without looking like an even bigger idiot, so, with my ringpiece twitching merrily away, I gave the one in charge a smack in the mouth - thank christ, he went down and stayed there, and luckily for me, his mates all had a sudden change of heart and decided to do a runner.
The old boy had witnessed this, and was really s******g it cos he thought they'd come back for him. Still not sure I did the right thing, but have to admit that for a week or two afterwards, I had a bit of a swagger on, and caught myself doing my best taxi driver (you looking at me?) impression a number of times.

I was driving past the home of mate's parents last year and there were about 10-15 teenagers in the front garden absolutely destroying the place. Ripping out plants, smashing pots, kicking stuff everywhere etc. I could see my mate's mum, aged about 60, standing at the window in tears.

Slammed the brakes on, jumped out the car, grabbed a golf club off the back seat and charged at them. Took down 3 or 4 of them before they realised what was going on. A couple had a go at me but the others started running and the ones lying on the ground picked themselves up and ran too.

[i]Im only a smallish chap 5'8" [/i]

some people have a strange perception of small... ish.

Grumm speaks sense.

Bad parents make bad kids. Most* kids, given the chance, will respond favourably to opportunities. Although it might seem attractive with no alternatives hanging round the streets drinking White Lightning is a pretty shit life. However I still think Mitch did the right thing. The more you let them get away with, the further they will push the boundries. Making monkey noises at a kid with learning difficulties is quite simply unacceptable.

*Some are just evil little shites with no hope of redemption

From the sounds of things the OP did the right thing. Yes you can be as hard as nails, but if they manage to get you unawares you havent got a chance. As soon as you are on the ground its game over. I have been in that situation with 4 other guys and i was lucky that a couple of guys waded in and dragged them off.

On a lighter note, i just cant get the image of Renton running away whilst his dog is pulling on the leash growling "WE CAN TAKE EM, WE CAN TAKE EM"

What kind of dog is it?

Yeh. I'm done with liberal namby pamby middle classness. The last chav in my garden got it with a cricket bat. They can **** off. You defend what's yours and i'll defend whats mine.

If you play with fire you are going to get burnt. The police don't have the time for all the lil scallies. I have even invested in some SPD shoes with a really hard toe for kicking them in the shins. I can't wait till some little ****er next tells me while i'm riding home on the heath late at night 'gimme your bike'. Hopefully i'll shatter their shin.

Personally I'd say that punching someone in the face is more unacceptable than making monkey noises. To the fella with the golf club, presumably it would be fine for one of their parent to come round and knife you then? So it goes....

Oh come on, there must have been one you wanted to give a bit of a slap.

Absolutely, but what would it achieve? Most of them get plenty of 'slaps' from parents, other kids etc and what does it teach them? If someone is more powerful than you then they can get you to do what they want through the threat/use of violence.

Marvelous.

[Personally I'd say that punching someone in the face is more unacceptable than making monkey noises.]

Really?

Yeh. I'm done with liberal namby pamby middle classness. The last chav in my garden got it with a cricket bat. They can **** off. You defend what's yours and i'll defend whats mine. [i]

Vote Joe!!! Well said mate I'm also fed up with lowlifes trying to steal my bikes,last 5 got a hammer and bat reception from me and my boy..

Some are just evil little shites with no hope of redemption [/i] Also very true coyote

I can't wait till some little **** next tells me while i'm riding home on the heath late at night 'gimme your bike'. Hopefully i'll shatter their shin.

Wow you are really fantasizing about this aren't you? Weirdo.

aP - Member

Who was it that said "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"?

A fictitious character called Salvor Hardin from Issac Asimovs foundation series is the only place I have heard it.

There are two things being mixed up here - a general case which is as said that we need to engage with young people, give them role models and hope in the future to prevent this sort of behaviour and specific cases where a smack in the mouth might be the only option.

Thank you. I also feel that I should explain that my comment about doing taxi driver impressions was meant to be ironic.

Original OP you did the right thing walking away mate.
However frustrating it may feel.
Lots of heroes in heaven.
Unless our "justice" system backs you up in taking them on whats the point.

Well done Barnsleymitch.
Unfortunately, there are the tw@s in this world who only understand this type of recourse. They grow up causing misery to the local residents because the grumms of this world let them be and suffer their thuggish ways, yet when someone gives them a taste af their own medicine a whole raft of wishy-washy limpwristers tells you to turn the other cheek.
Why? So they can slap your other cheek too whilst laughing at you and planning their next attack?
Keep up the probation officer speak, grumm, but some of us live in the real world.

I and a few locals to my old place have a bit of experience with drunken teens roaming the streets damaging thigns and intimidating people. Invariably the legal and "sensible" ways do nothing at all unfortunately, and calling the police certainly seems to store up hatred and a grudge. Not running, not looking scared and if necessary picking the largest and flattening them is about the best solution - they tend not to come back. This is an opinion that upsets a lot of people but it is borne out of experience with kids who simply dont listen to reason, the police or their parents. And its remarkably easy (if not shamefully so) to deck even a big chap who's drunk when you're sober.

My Mates brother went of the rails when he was in his late teens and got into drugs. His mum found a load hidden in his bedroom and his Dad flushed them down the toilet. Luckily he was an ex para and someone you wouldn't mess with. The drug dealer came round for his drugs and as the Dad opened the front door he put the drug dealer on the floor with one punch before he could do or say anything. Later he came back with loads of his mates. The Dad went outside, walked up to the biggest lad who was there and put him on the floor again with one punch. He then turned to the drug dealer and all the mates and said 'who's next', they all legged off and the lad on the floor eventually got up and legged it as well. They never got ANY more trouble after that. Although I don't condone violence, sometimes these thuggish youths only understand violence!!

There was a time when the police wouldn't think twice about giving these youths a quick wack and send them on their way. I sometimes think those times are needed again.

coffeeking i know what yoiur saying but a 32 year old bloke ****ting a 15 year old kid seems a bit wrong!!

My Mates brother went of the rails when he was in his late teens and got into drugs. His mum found a load hidden in his bedroom and his Dad flushed them down the toilet. Luckily he was an ex para and someone you wouldn't mess with. The drug dealer came round for his drugs and as the Dad opened the front door he put the drug dealer on the floor with one punch before he could do or say anything. Later he came back with loads of his mates. The Dad went outside, walked up to the biggest lad who was there and put him on the floor again with one punch. He then turned to the drug dealer and all the mates and said 'who's next', they all legged off and the lad on the floor eventually got up and legged it as well. They never got ANY more trouble after that. Although I don't condone violence, sometimes these thuggish youths only understand violence!!

There was a time when the police wouldn't think twice about giving these youths a quick wack and send them on their way. I sometimes think those times are needed again.

coffeeking i know what yoiur saying but a 32 year old bloke ****ting a 15 year old kid seems a bit wrong!!

I'm not saying violence is always the answer, you have to assess the situation, but when put in a situation where you are intimidated and being "approached" by a group, turning and scurrying away isn't always the best answer. Likewise lamping a 15 year old for being a bit mouthy is not a good idea either. Hopefully adults are capable of deciding the tipping point! I can remember countless occurences to back up the argument, but they are all anecdotal so not worth the LCD screen they're printed on, but I know a few women in my old area who had lots of trouble but who eventually stood up for themselves (after some training) and were left alone from that point on. A close relative of mine once caught someone trying to undo the handbrake on the very large trailer parked on the drive, it would have careered through the house if released as they had moved the bricks. The relative was initially abused and yelled at when he asked them to F off, so he grabbed the biggest lad, pinned him against the side of the trailer with his feet swinging off the ground and punched the trailer next to the lads face - put him back on the ground and the chaps ran off. The next day it was famous with the scallies, I had numerous people approaching saying "your XYZ was after blood, he's a psycho" and they never had a peep of trouble after that.

But then that chap was killed just a couple of towns over from me for moving kids on who were damaging his car so it's obviously not the best option all the time.

Coffeeking, I was not advocating decking every fifteen year-old. Mouthy ones can be just that;- mouthy.
I was refering to the intimidating ones in gangs, the type that make decent folk feel uncomfortable when going to the local shops.

Deck 'em while they're young

Amazing.

That was not meant to sound as silly as it did, grumm.
Bad choice of words on my behalf.

Grumm whats more amazing is that you seem to think it's fine for snotty 15 year olds to shout and attack people, then break peoples property. People should not have to put up with this.

Grumm whats more amazing is that you seem to think it's fine for snotty 15 year olds to shout and attack people

Really, where did I say this?

If you just talk to them then thats whats going to happen, they don't listen to you or the police.

OH dear! This sort of thing really does bring out the "armchair ninja" in some people! I know how mad angry these little gits can make you feel. We are not allowed to take the law into our own hands, but the perpetrators just laugh in the face of the law (i've witnessed this myself). The police are equally powerless and the kids have no respect or fear of authority. If you put "numpty's" lights out, then the weight of the law comes down on their side. All of a sudden you are the criminal. In the "red mist" moment you could kill someone (they are lightweights and you are much much bigger than them - imagine the newspaper headlines etc!) ONLY USE VIOLENCE IN SELF-DEFENSE as a last resort and make sure it is proportional (not easy when the adrenalin is flowing). Hopefully you can avoid violence by not doing anything that will inflame a situation.

These halfwits have only just discovered the effects of their bodies producing testosterone and are just establishing who the pack leader is. Their own little "MR BIG". It's pathetic! They are mostly all mouth and no trousers until they have a few cans of cheap lager inside them. They are cowards because they operate in large numbers and on "Dutch courage"! It takes self-control not to do them some serious damage - that is commendable.

Remember they also probably have knives which can take any person down in minutes, regardless of their victim's strength and ability to look after themselves.

We abandoned reason where juvenile misbehaviour is concerned probably a few decades ago. I bet there are one or two adults here that, if they cast their minds back, weren't perfect little angels when they were in their teens!

My experience is that after the event and for a certain period of time, you feel incandescent with rage about the injustice and knowledge that you could have obliterated these idiots if they hadn't been in any numbers etc. That you wished you'd done "this", or "that", but you didn't. Try and put this negative shit out of your mind - even if it seems so unfair. If you let it fester they will succeed in continuing to hurt you. That only makes things worse. Bear in mind that the vast majority of people are decent and are right behind you.

I'd definitely get on to the Police and tell them about the incident, even if they do nothing about it. If enough people come forward about this gang, there will be some action. Saying nothing lets them go on to harass other people. When and if they get caught assaulting someone and end up in court, all the other complaints could mean the difference between them getting off, or going to jail!

We always err on the side of leniency with juvenilles and first offenders. So this is all the more reason to flag it up. Make sure you are persistent with your complaint and get a crime reference number. make sure they make a statement - Police don't like crimes being reported. It makes them look like they aren't hitting their targets.

If you just talk to them then thats whats going to happen, they don't listen to you or the police.

I bet there are one or two adults here that, if they cast their minds back, weren't perfect little angels when they were teens!

Definitely. But never purposefully damaged property. Might have thrown a few insults at people, testing the ground as teens used to, but would never have attacked them or threatened them. Once or twice got collared for it and taken to my parents who were incandescent with rage at the shame I'd brought on them and occasionally if it was particularly bad I would have got a slap round the thighs enough to hurt fairly impressively but do no damage, and I never made that mistake again. I would have needed divine intervention if I had purposefully damaged something or intimidated someone.

In the end we are animals, while I agree positive reinforcement and "things to do" work well to tame dodgy kids, some are beyond that and ultimately I think on some level everyone wants to avoid a beating. However a world full of people beating each other up would be anarchy, so its a hard middle ground to plough. In the same vein as your oringinal comment, quoted above, when I was a kid there was nothing to do either, and alcohol was freely available, but we were not the nightmare you see today.

OMG! I did it again! A long ramble that nobody will bother to read! 🙁

A long ramble that nobody will bother to read!

That's not the point. As long as it's important [i]to you[/i], that's all that matters.

Well, that's the way I see it with some of the bollox I post on here.

LOL @ Spongebob.
I read it, actually 😀

I agree coffeeking, but we just have to step back and keep calm. I'm no different to anyone else here, it makes me angry that we have ferral gangs running a muck. Yes, the kids now are much bolder in their challenge to authority than 30 years ago, but i do remember a lot more random violence when I was young. Things like whole schools having pitched battles on the local common, or just random attacks on totally innocent people.

I'm sure violence in the home was much more prevalent then too. How many of the older people here got a cuff round the back of the head or a spanking for minor misdemeanors? It was acceptable in those days.

We are a lot softer on young people these days. I guess there is some frustration on our part that if [i]we[/i] had to endure this, why shouldn't they.

Who knows what the best way is to bring up a child, but sure enough, we need to go back to a much less lenient society. Teach right from wrong and make the consequences of disregarding the rules felt. No authority has the courage to do this for fear of a public outcry and the inevitable litigation. The result is that the tail continues to wag the dog, The only way to preserve your own health and sanity is to shut this out (my previous advice).

Thank you ernie_lynch, thank you trademark! I feel valued now!(even if I am wrong) 😉

We are a lot softer on young people these days. I guess there is some frustration on our part that if we had to endure this, why shouldn't they.

I dont think it has anything to do with "we should, why shouldnt they", its a case of
"we turned out well, it didnt harm us (for the most part, assuming we arent all randomly/excessively abused, though we would be by current definition) and it kept us in line without making us hate our parents and turn into violent killers, so why is it frowned on".

While we used to have whole-school fights as kids, they were not "serious", no-one would have continued kicking people when they were down, no-one would have used weapons and none of us would have used violence against our elders. I don't remember any other violence as a kid. I remember that even the violent kids respected their elders, mostly the ones they were scared of too. Maybe we were naive back then as kids, but we never questioned their authority when they asserted it with scare tactics, the ones that got walked all over were the ones that refused to shout and/or scare kids.

We are a lot softer on young people these days. I guess there is some frustration on our part that if we had to endure this, why shouldn't they.

Who knows what the best way is to bring up a child, but sure enough, we need to go back to a much less lenient society. Teach right from wrong and make the consequences of disregarding the rules felt.

In many other countries the age of criminal responsibility is much higher than here, yet most have less problems with teenage violence and anti-social behaviour.

I am all for teaching right from wrong and giving kids clear boundaries, just not that into the idea of beating them up.

the ones that got walked all over were the ones that refused to shout and/or scare kids.

.............While we used to have whole-school fights as kids, they were not "serious", no-one would have continued kicking people when they were down, no-one would have used weapons .............

Not at my school. Kicking people when they were down was a part of it and the occasional knife as well. glasgow in the 70s

Grumm, I don't want to appear to be heckling you but I think that we have grown up on different housing estates.
Mine was fairly tough, how was yours ?

TJ - yes that does throw a spanner in the thought-machine 😀

In many other countries the age of criminal responsibility is much higher than here, yet most have less problems with teenage violence and anti-social behaviour.

You can't really compare crime vs age of responsibility across countries without also comparing all the other driving and retarding factors and finding a country with the same level of all of them.

I am all for teaching right from wrong and giving kids clear boundaries, just not that into the idea of beating them up.

Assuming you want boundaries and right/wrong taught, how do you propose they are enforced, when in current form there is absolutely sod all an adult can do? The carrot method doesn't always work, especially not with teenagers.

Just to balance up the Para story above, a mate of mine got into an argument in the pub, and couldn't let it go. They took it outside to sort it out like men I suppose. He's dead now, because the other bloke had a knife and was prepared to use it.

I grew up in the countryside - but I have lived in some pretty dodgy areas of Leeds and I work in one of the most deprived boroughs in Lancashire.

Anyway - thought about this yet?

In many other countries the age of criminal responsibility is much higher than here, yet most have less problems with teenage violence and anti-social behaviour.

grumm - yes, see my reply above

Grumm, whilst I agree with some of what you have said I've still yet to read any viable alternatives. Most kids are just pushing the boundries but some are real evil ****ers. Witness the lads who kicked the guy to death in Warrington last year. Really can't see them responding to a deep chat over tea and biscuits can you? They repeatedly kicked him the head whilst he was unconcious. Evil, plain simple.

I'm sure that we all did things we'd rather not admit to but there is always a line. If we crossed it there was consequence. There doesn't seem to be now. I'm lucky, we've had very little trouble where I live and the times we have I've been able to talk it out. However if violence was the *only* option then I couldn't say I wouldn't use it.

The little shites should be drowned.

Assuming you want boundaries and right/wrong taught, how do you propose they are enforced, when in current form there is absolutely sod all an adult can do? The carrot method doesn't always work, especially not with teenagers.

If they were taught these things from a young enough age by their parents then it wouldn't be such a problem to try and teach them it as a teenager.

You can't really compare crime vs age of responsibility across countries without also comparing all the other driving and retarding factors and finding a country with the same level of all of them.

True to an extent but we have an extremely vindictive and unpleasant attitude towards young people in this country, as displayed in this thread.

I am all for teaching right from wrong and giving kids clear boundaries, just not that into the idea of beating them up.

Looking at my childrens's schools, the culture is very different from my day. Both schools are very good at pastoral care and in the main, the kids coming out of there are more mature and more rounded individuals than those in my day. They are also a lot more streetwise, aware of their rights and confident in dealing with their seniors.

Not wishing to be smug, but my two are pretty well behaved and we have never needed to raise a hand to them (I have NO idea why this has worked so far - REALLY - it must be solely down to their mother 😉 )

Leaving my little angels to one side, there are a few youngsters that are totally out of control. They haven't had the good fortune to be born into a stable home life etc etc, but they still need to have respect for others if they want me to sympathise with their plight. Many people grew up in poverty and never broke the law, so we need to be firm with them. Violence is out, detention is the way to go. Corrective counselling whilst in custody and continued mentauring on release. The victims should get the most support however.

OMG, I am rambling yet again!

the last time this happened, my mate belted the nearest one and it all kicked off.

despite feeling that we were seriously outnumbered, the next thing i know two of them are trying to carry their mate away (out cold) screaming and crying that they are only kids. One of them then had his nose moved across his face.

learn it the hard way or not at all.