[Closed] Edinburgh trams yet again.

no kidding, eh?
but when my kids are picketing to keep their school open (again!) and the potholes in the streets start to swallow cars and bikes whole and garbage collection becomes a bi-annual affair.....i will console myself by knowing that the tourists riding the sleek, lovely new tram from the airport will see us as a modern, cosmopolitan and [i]European[/i] capital.

i'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. 😕

It's just a shame the SNP didn't have a majority last term otherwise they'd have nipped the entire sorry project in the bud. Unfortunately the other parties all wanted the project to continue and it now seems to be at the stage that it's just as expensive to cancel the project as it is to continue.

I believe that's called "The Union Dividend"

How many miles of track are they going to deliver and what will be the final bill?

It's probably going to end up costing as much per mile as the M74 extension!

Cost per passenger mile travelled is going to be slightly different though when it finally comes into operation.

Ho hum - no idea how long the track will be or how much the final cost will be. But one thing is sure as hell, it will be a hell of a lot more than the current £770m figure that they have. I would be amazed if, when they start digging up St Andrews Square , they dont find lots and lots of problems that push the final figure past a billion.

One of the ways that was discussed to make up for the funding shortfall was a 45% increase in council tax.

Ouch at the possible increase in council tax!

Wasn't one of the SNP's manifesto pledges not to increase council tax for the duration of this parliament?

Yes that is was one of the manifesto pledges, but councils can take the decision to raise council tax and take any resulting penalties on the chin. Which is what was suggeseted here.

For massive infrastructure projects like the M74 extension, Id love to see a full breakdown of where that money goes. I find it ludicrous the cost of things like this and cant help but feel there must be a few "£1000 hammers" purchased along the way! Is there anywhere they publish that type of data?

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Yes that is was one of the manifesto pledges, but councils can take the decision to raise council tax and take any resulting penalties on the chin. Which is what was suggeseted here.

Ah, I did not know that.

All of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.

Or maybe they will learn from their previous mistakes?

😉

Ho hum - Member

All of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.

Edinburgh Shitty Concil - learn from mistakes - you're having a laugh.

The leader of the council claimed that the cost overrun and delays were a "glitch" and "not as bad as the scottish parliament building" - wonder what would have to happen before something was a complete unmitigated ****ing disaster.

All of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.

Or maybe they will learn from their previous mistakes?

haha of course not! Second Severn Crossing was about £300 million, they've already got the second Forth crossing estimated at ten times that even though its much smaller, so by the construction time you can add much more onto that cost and then add on your traditional budget overruns. these projects are a dream come true for engineering and consultancy businesses!

I'll never forget the mess they made of George Street when they installed that traffic calming crap. Almost sent the shops there out of business.

This is in a different league of badness from the Scottish parliament building IMO. At least with the parliament you have a building that fulfills a clear need and is working to its intended function. If you're a fan of the building like I am, and factor in the architectural success of it, then it's not even worth complaining about [If you hate it then I guess there's a degree of complaining to be done.]

Contrast that with a toy tram that no one wants and goes nowhere, in relative terms. 15 years into the future it will still seem like an embarrassment.

The parliament building didnt close off half of the major roads in the city for several years either.

I'm moving to Glasgow.

13thfloormonk - Member
I'm moving to Glasgow.

Glasgow still has tramlines.

The only problem is they are buried under several inches of tarmac!

I remember seeing them on Hyndland Road years ago when they had dug part of the road up.

Even if it does get completed for the current estimate (which it won't) then the projected £2M per annum profit once it's up and running is going to have rather a long return-on-investment period...

It really is an unbelievable waste of money. I'm an Edinburgh resident but given the trams don't come anywhere close to servicing anywhere I might want to go to or from then I doubt I'd ever use them. Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?

Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?

Every half sensible person in Edinburgh would agree. Unfortunately our council loonies didn't. I suspect that a railway spur would have been built for a fraction of the price, and would have been genuinely useful (actually joined up thinking for travel).

Here's to another 5 years of closed roads and Edinburgh looking like a dump. I'm sure the tourists that the economy depends on will love the metal barriers. 😕

Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?

Hold on there, way to sensible an idea for some legacy obsessed council joker.

China has managed to build a 26 mile sea bridge for £1bn, i know labour is cheaper but that appears good value for money.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/13987274

Look at the contribution to the English language
On turning up late - "..and about as punctual as an Edinburgh Tram"
On visiting Halfords -"..about as expensive as an Edinurgh Tram"
On watching an event that dragged on for ever "..took as long as the Edinburgh Trams"

..and so on and so Forth

Ho Hum - The general consensus of any driver that has 'driven' the M8 near the Kingston bridge around rush hour has given the M74 a unanimous thumbs up. Worth every penny is a well used phrase. Please do not compare the Edinburgh Sham project to the 5 miles of golden tarmac loveliness that has made Glasgow car drivers very happy!

Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?

Every single time I've been past Edinburgh Airport on the train I've thought that. Railway literally past the end of the runway but can you get a train to the airport? Oh no, that'd be train right past it then bus or taxi out there again.
Just insane.

They could have resurfaced every one of the utterly shit roads in Edinburgh for the cost of this tram project. Come to Manchester where they're extending the current tram network - on time and on budget and to useful places where people actually want to go.

Oh no, that'd be train right past it then bus or taxi out there again.

Joined up travel! In about 5 years time you can get the train to Waverley, taxi to the nearest trams stop, tram to Gogarburn, then the bus from Gogarburn to the airport. Public travel has never been this integrated!

Edinburgh City Council's new slogan - If two wrongs don't make a right, try a third.

Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?

There was! Mr Salmond cancelled it.

http://www.earlproject.com/

I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee......??

This sounds even worse than the Cambridge Guided Bus thing.

I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee......??

Buses are great. Or they were until they dug up every street in the city centre.

I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee.

Funny, but it is. Or was, maybe not once it's been sold off to pay for this pile of poo

City Council are still hacked off that they lost the congestion charge referendum and this is how they make the people in the city pay.

EARL was cancelled because the tramline had already been voted through (against the wishes of the incumbent SNP government) leading to (a) a duplication of function and (b) a lack of money for other infrastructure projects.

EARL was cancelled because the tramline had already been voted through (against the wishes of the incumbent SNP government) leading to (a) a duplication of function and (b) a lack of money for other infrastructure projects.

and cause he is a big fannybaws, making everything free to keep the punters happy, and going on about scotland's future economic reliance in marine renewables whilst in reality doing jack all to support investment in it or any other industry http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/06/13/pelamis-wave-power-lays-off-third-of-its-workforce-uk/

So bigjim, you're not a fan then...

If he can show us the fibre of his fabric I could be converted, but at the moment he's talking the talk but thats it. If renewables are going to be a foundation of scotland's future like he keeps going on about, something drastic needs to happen soon!

I still don't understand exactly why a quote for work, once accepted, can change. If I tell a customer what I'm going to do will cost them £1000, knowing I'll make £100 profit, if my profit drops to zero because of increased costs then I have to swallow that loss and re-think my strategy. Why is it different in this kind of venture? All that seems to happen is people quote stupidly low (or reasonable) prices and then as soon as the first 5 minutes are up there's tooth sucking and head shaking and it's as twice as pricey as the most expensive quote. idiotic.

bigjim - Member
http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/06/13/pelamis-wave-power-lays-off-third-of-its-workforce-uk/

http://www.pelamiswave.com/our-projects/spr-at-emec
Continuing the presence of Pelamis technology at EMEC, ScottishPower Renewables (SPR) has ordered a P2 Pelamis machine for demonstration and test. The project will utilise the existing electrical subsea cables, substation and grid connection. [b]The Scottish Government has provided funding for the project[/b] through the WATES scheme and consent via Section 36 of the Electricity Act.

And they wanted £550m-650m for Earl, which would have been heading towards a billion by the time they'd finished... For a station and a length of track?

To put the trams and the new Forth vanity (sorry crossing) project into perspective. The Millau Viaduct cost just short of 400 million euros and is spectacular.

> finishing them at the new HQ of RBS.
um, the airport...

>For a station and a length of track?
loops off the edinburgh-glasgow and fife circle plus tunnels under the airport/runway to link them to an airport station.

guessing the tram ****-up is a mix of badly written contracts and finding a right mess when they started opening the streets up.

lots of public works seem to some in badly over original budget and over time. look at the glentress peel project for a bike related one.

The big issue with the trams, was pretty much everybody who was in a position of authority and dared to question them, was bumped/silenced in some shape or form.

Like a former exec with Lothian Buses, who mentioned the fact they could of provided free buses for x number of years for the cost of the trams, was suddenly given early retirement.
Or another person who mentioned they were effectively spending hundreds of millions to replace the number 22 bus...

mc - Member
The big issue with the trams, was pretty much everybody who was in a position of authority and dared to question them, was bumped/silenced in some shape or form.

Like a former exec with Lothian Buses, who mentioned the fact they could of provided free buses for x number of years for the cost of the trams, was suddenly given early retirement.
Or another person who mentioned they were effectively spending hundreds of millions to replace the number 22 bus...

Bumped by who though? Someone big and powerful was masterminding all of this 😐

It's not running to gogarburn, it's running to the airport. It's not like it isn't bad enough without adding misinformation 😉

Garry_Lager - Member

15 years into the future it will still seem like an embarrassment.

Not convinced. The elephant in the room is that Edinburgh city centre was/is a traffic disaster. People now are pretending it's because of the tramwork but it's easy to see through that.

The bus service is excellent, but the hubs- Princes St in particular- were already past capacity. The 22's the perfect example (and btw the tram doesn't just replace it, it runs further). At rush-hour you can see snarled up lines of 22s, literally nose to tail trying to load up or move away, and still more people waiting than they can carry. I used to use the 22 and plenty of days I'd have to wait for 3 or more to pass before any had even standing room. They'd thrown more buses onto the route for years but it gets to a point that it just doesn't work any more, and that happened years ago.

So yep the trams have been a fiasco but I still think when it's up and running people will start to see the point. Someone mentioned the expected return- it's not a project that should be judged solely on its own profit.

I will bet a shiny scottish pound that within 10 years of the reduced line being fully operational, there'll be moves on to finish the job.

Just think when the scots do get their own governmnent, and taxes they will be paying forever for the tram set, and with no oil to sell, theyre going to be stuck for cash.

Princes Street [i]does[/i] get snarled up with buses at rush hour, but how much better will it be when there is one less lane for them to use in order to keep it clear for the tram?

This is from a 1956 newspaper we found under the carpet...

What goes around etc etc. The cooncil will be ripping up the trams for hover boards in 2025..

[img] [/img]

Its the "One Big Contract" that makes me laugh...

See if they'd just given someone "one big contract" rather than lots of people lots of different contracts the trams would have been finished by now.

druidh - Member

Princes Street does get snarled up with buses at rush hour, but how much better will it be when there is one less lane for them to use in order to keep it clear for the tram?

Quite a bit, I expect. It's a fairly solid reduction in the number of buses, and the trams load and unload far faster. I'm not sure what's planned for the bus stops though. The reduced route's going to have an impact on that though of course.

a future episode of Top gear features the men helping to solve transport problems for poor people who cant druive, using a car pulling some caravans down a railway track, looks good.

See if they'd just given someone "one big contract" rather than lots of people lots of different contracts the trams would have been finished by now.

It does seem like the main problem is around the procurement and governance of the whole project.

Glad it's going ahead and just wish they would get the bloody thing built now. Edinburgh city centre is rubbish for traffic and always has been (been living here 10 years now, long before tram works and traffic calming). I say get Edinburgh Airport - St Andrews Square done, see how it works out (reckon it will be pretty good myself) and then crack on with turning Edinburgh Park into a viable interchange station for trains from west and airport trams and get building a wider network over 10-20 years.

Rail link would have been a problem on may levels. First off, which line do you link it up to? The Edinburgh - Forth Bridge line goes by the end of the runway (but still about a km from the terminal); the Edinburgh - Glasgow line is on the other side of the A8 and about 20m higher than airport level so again would take a bit of moving. There's a lot of volcanic rock around there (see Ratho quarries, Craigie Hill etc) which is expensive to tunnel through as it's so hard, you're not dealing with chalk etc. And if you can solve that there are still severe capacity problems between Waverley and Haymarket. Only 4 tracks service about 15 platforms and no way of widening without encroaching on Princes Street Gardens, or tunnelling through the Castle Rock. Stopping trains at the airport would add a few mins to every journey too (the logic for not stopping Ed-Gla at Edinburgh Park apparently). Have a look at what the Heathrow Express to set up and a "few miles of track and a station" soon adds up.

Infrastructure programs are always long term gain for short term pain - that's sort of the point.

Bumped by who though? Someone big and powerful was masterminding all of this

Princes Street does get snarled up with buses at rush hour, but how much better will it be when there is one less lane for them to use in order to keep it clear for the tram?

Buses won't be running the same way as the trams.
No bus service will be allowed to run in direct competition with the trams.
Which basically means that if you want to go anywhere that involves going in a similar direction to the trams, yet isn't on the tramline, you'll have to get of a bus, on the tram, then back on a bus.
For example, if you want to go from Jocks Lodge to the Zoo, which you could do via the 26 at the moment, you'll have to get the bus from Jocks Lodge to St Andrews Sq, get the tram along Princes Street to Haymarket, then get another bus for the final stretch to the zoo.

I'm sure First Bus will come up with alternatives, but I'm equally sure the council will ensure there's no decent direct alternative routes.

mc - Member

Buses won't be running the same way as the trams.
No bus service will be allowed to run in direct competition with the trams.
Which basically means that if you want to go anywhere that involves going in a similar direction to the trams, yet isn't on the tramline, you'll have to get of a bus, on the tram, then back on a bus.
For example, if you want to go from Jocks Lodge to the Zoo, which you could do via the 26 at the moment, you'll have to get the bus from Jocks Lodge to St Andrews Sq, get the tram along Princes Street to Haymarket, then get another bus for the final stretch to the zoo.

I still don't understand exactly why a quote for work, once accepted, can change. If I tell a customer what I'm going to do will cost them £1000, knowing I'll make £100 profit, if my profit drops to zero because of increased costs then I have to swallow that loss and re-think my strategy. Why is it different in this kind of venture? All that seems to happen is people quote stupidly low (or reasonable) prices and then as soon as the first 5 minutes are up there's tooth sucking and head shaking and it's as twice as pricey as the most expensive quote. idiotic.

Most engineering contracts quite rightly feature clauses for unforeseen circumstances, things that cannot be quantified before the works begin - like the amount of services in the ground and their location. The only ones that don't are Guaranteed Maximum Price contracts.

M74 £2000 / inch
Trams about £2500 / inch at the moment

expensive eh?

I don't know the veracity of this but there is quite of a lof of information here

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams ]Wiki trams[/url]

which appears well substantiated and I would recommend anyone who is interested at least have a read.

I just wrote a massive reply, but deleted it because it feels better to sit here and just smile at the majority of these posts 😀

Nortwind
Ill happily take that shiny scottish pound bet with you, infact ill take any value of wager you like!
There is not enough time left in the universe for the trams to be extended to even the "completion" of the.proposed first phase of the first route to newhaven let alone granton or any of the other pie in the sky routes.

Given the proposed building of homes in the eastern part of leith docks i would suggest that the trams were to pre-empt some planning concerns

I wonder why the route wasnt started from the airport and built towards the outer terminus, im guessing because they knew there would be serious budget issues and without large swathes of the work done that the project would be pulled. If they had built it from the airport to town then the trams could have been running by now generating an income while the remainder of the works were completed.

Given the history of edin cooncil an non completion of projects, some ancient, calton hill, some more recent, the western approach road its hardly a surprise!

The most annoying thing about this imho is that the edinburgh electorate will vote the same ****wits back in!! Im all for the stw massive standing in every ward on a trams were a fiasco ticket. Not on the fact that they were built but on the managemet of them.

Fwiw if the original plan of a tram NETWORK had went ahead it would have been worthwhile and tackled many of the congestion issues but not a partial single line!!

The reduction in traffic on Princes Street was modelled on the whole length of the track. By not going down Leith (the part with the highest profit potential, apparently) the 22s will still run at least part of teh route.

[b]druidh[/b] That'll be the development activity reduced and production beginning. Different skills required, see.

Nope, they are still in development, its the production staff they are laying off, because they can't get anyone to invest in wave power and buy the devices.

I think that is the SPR machine you linked to in the picture, the eon one is already up in Orkney being tested. I think once the SPR machine is built they are going to lose their production staff which is a real mess.

Ruddy tram - what a farce. All that money for a useless white elephant It was allways the wrong solution to the wrong question. mainline trains should be going to the airport, light rail should have been the reinstatement of the south suburban loop(the rails are still there and used for freight) with the north suburban loop added ( maybe later).

The trams do not integrate with either the railway or the airport properly anyway - just stupid. Worse that the existing bus service for integration

What went wrong with the Western Approach Rd (mentioned by Turin)? First bit was just an old railway line to Princes St, couldn't ask for an easier thing to tarmac.
It always does strike me as an odd road, coming out the back of Gorgie the way it does, this start point is sort of discrete. I've never needed to use it though, maybe it's great if that's your commute.

Western Approach Road - [url= http://www.cockburnassociation.org.uk/default.asp?page=85 ]this[/url] proposal?

turin - Member

Nortwind
Ill happily take that shiny scottish pound bet with you, infact ill take any value of wager you like!

I'll put one aside for you, just in case.

Glasgow still has tramlines.

The only problem is they are buried under several inches of tarmac!

I remember seeing them on Hyndland Road years ago when they had dug part of the road up.

Well, see them quite often on Maryhill Road when the potholes open up. Together with the cobblestoned streets below. Looks lovely...... as you are spilled over the handlebars to crack your wrists on 100 year old tram lines.... 8)